Clauses suspensives for building plots?

[Daft Doctor]

Hi, we have our eyes on a building plot and are on the point of making an offer.  Obviously we are wary of the unknown, including what the ground conditions are like for building, how much it will cost to have the utilities and drainage on-site (there are recently completed properties nearby) and any other potential problems.  The agent's details for instance say that the access to the plot is going to be tarred this autumn, that the plot has a COS of 0.2 and that it is non-viabilisé, but little else.  I will probably ask at the mairie about the tarring, whether the road is being adopted by the mairie and maintained, or whether the propriétaires are clubbing together to tarmac, but if the agent's details mention it, they would surely be liable in some way if it didn't happen?

As my French is fairly basic and we would be embarking on a significant project, I want to make sure that we are protecting ourselves as much as possible.  I understand that it is the agents responsibility to inform us of any factor which might affect the ability or cost to construct, but does anyone know of or have links to some standard clauses suspensives which could be put in the compromis to protect us.  I have heard it said that you can make the purchase subject to professional assessment of the site revealing no factors which would make the build excessively difficult or costly, but that sounds a bit vague to me and wondered whether there was model clauses around using appropriate wording, etc.  Any advice or links would be much appreciated.

If we were getting the site professionally evaluated, who would be best to approach to do it, an architect, a builder or someone else?  Thanks again.

[P-D de Rouffignac]

Difficult to reply to all your questions without further information, but if you are buying a plot on a 'lotissement' (an estate with other houses), then services such as electricity, water etc will be normally supplied to each plot, and details agreed with the developer and the commune about access roads, street lighting etc. All this information should be included in a comperhensive information package provided by the developer or agent handling sales, detailing stage payments and prececisely what is included in the sale price. Important among other things to verify that soil tests have been done.

If your proposed plot is isolated, you need to check the cost of these utilities and how they are going to be paid for, and also with the Mairie about roads etc.

If you are buying a plot and having your house built independently, an architect can be called in as early as possible to advise on these aspects, including the feasibility of the site for the sort of house you want,  as well as design, orientation of the house, building regulations and standards. And of course, costs. Houses built to the latest BBC standards cost extra and may become the norm under future legislation.

I personally would advise doing the above checks and consultation before signing a 'compromis de vente' - it is difficult without having done these checks to know what to include as 'clauses suspensives' at this stage. You can't insure yourself against risks you don't know about!

Hope this helps.

[Daft Doctor]

Hi, thanks P-D.  It is an individual plot which was originally green belt but is now in zone UB and has a recently obtained Certificate 'Urbanisme.  The plot is individual but not isolated as such, being at the end of a untarred 'impasse' (see above re the plans for tarring it).    There is a large chalet on the next plot and the old man who owns the land actually lives on the plot now, albeit in a series of fairly ramshackle wooden buildings.  He definitely has electricity, and mains drainage and telephone isn't far away.  Uncertain about water, but the chalet next door is only 20 metres fron the perimeter.

Do you think an architect would charge much to look at a plot and produce a report- if its a couple of hundred euros that's ok, a couple of thousand is another issue?  Also how do you go about having soil tests done, are there specialists for this?  Thanks for any other advice you might have given your background, we are keen on the plot but are wary of being too hasty.  

[P-D de Rouffignac]

If you don't want to spend much money at this very preliminary stage I suggest you begin your own enquiries at the Mairie - they will have a plan of the site and its identity (cadastral plan reference), who is the owner, classification for building or not, what might be allowed in terms of volume, water and drainage etc. 'Chalets' of the type you describe have frequently started life as a 'tool shed' and may be more or less tolerated unofficially but become a problem when there is a need to formalise a situation (such as a sale). Best regards, P-D de R.

[Edward Trunk]

You can write what you want into the compromis, but both sides have to agree to the "clauses suspensive".

[Daft Doctor]

Thanks again.  The wooden buildings that the old man occupies would just be cleared along with the site generally and it would be a new build in all respects.  I will check with the mairie this afternnoon and talk a bit more with the agent.  She might have a bit more documentation to show us if we tell her we are seriously interested.  I don't know if there are any web pages which might show us current water and drainage arrangements for the site and its immediate vicinity? 

[P-D de Rouffignac]

Dear DD - Bit late getting bak to you, but the 'technical' infomation about mains services etc to the site you are looking at will be available from the Mairie. The on-line edition of the 'cadastral plan' is sometimes out of date as the information relies on its being provided by the Mairie, so they remain your best source of info and guidance. Hope your enquiries are going well.

[Daft Doctor]

Hi P-D, thanks for getting back.  Things have moved on a little since my last posting.  We spoke again to the agent and checked both the PLU and the attached Regulations.  We established that water, electricity and telephone were already on site, provided to the elderly owner in his small wooden building.  Mains drainage is approximately 15m from the perimeter of the plot so approximately 25-30m form any proposed new house.  The road to the plot is private approximately 150-200m long, shared with 2 or 3 other dwellings.  The owner states he is tarring this at his expense in the autumn, though whether he has agreed this with the neighbours and whether they need to contribute anything is unclear.  The land is in a UB zone and this seems to give more scope for building.  The plot is 1180sqm and the cos is 0.6.  We are only looking to build something approx 140sqm surface plancher, so we would have no problem being near to boundaries, too much height, etc.

We put an offer in of 20k under his asking price and he has come back saying he would meet half way.  We are contemplating making a final offer of 15k under asking as we really like the location, which is handy for town, skiing, etc, but is also quiet and with splendid uninterruptable views of the mont blanc massif.  Any contract would however have to include either an absolute liability for the vendeur to complete the tarring and the extent of this, or could an agreed retention be made as part of the purchase agreement then released once tarring has been done?

We are a bit anxious as this is a big step, but we have always thought we would like to have our own house built and as it takes such a long time to come to fruition, we would like to start the process sooner rather than later as long as we can be reasonable protected in the land purchase.  With build costs here at 2000-2500 HT though, its a serious decision.  Any thoughts would be of value, especially from someone as yourself who has knowledge of these things, albeit a bit farther south from us.  Thanks again

   

[idun]

The next thing you need to have a very good look at is good builders. My friend had her house built by Maison Dauphine Savoie and we went with Le Clair Logis. My friends house and other Maisons DS I have seen have been well built. Le Clair Logis took us to lots of their houses that were under construction or just finished before we signed with them

Some of the cheaper builders had so many things as 'extras' that they would have cost more in the long run.

 

And my friend who has the Maison DS home, well her son has just had a house built, not by MDS and if his father and FIL were not an electrician and builder respectively, then they would have had a very very poorly built home.

 

I have friends who are from a 'noble' french family and they ended up with a catastophic build.

 

Plenty of research until you feel happy and confident is the best thing I can suggest.

 

Sometimes things that you expect will be there are not, ie the drain pipes going into the drains, and not just ending at near the ground. A stair case into a sous sol if you have one....... and a conrete base in said sous sol, if you have one.

Someone told me about three years ago that they were going to have a house built, approx 120m² habitable including kitchen and bathroom and tiled throughout and it was going to cost approx 100.000€ for the better model. They lived near the Pyrenees and I frankly did not believe a word of it. They didn't get it built and I have no more contact with them any more.

[P-D de Rouffignac]

Dear D-D - Good to hear of your progress. If you want to send me your email address I will send you (as attachments in Word) some standard notes on the buying process, which others have found helpful, and also a piece I wrote some time agao about using an architect during the planning/building process. Best regards, P-D de R;

[Quillan]

Local knowledge is the key and you need to come over for a few a weeks and start asking around. Visit some of the agents and tell them you want a house built and who would they recommend is a start but not always the end either. We have two builders round here, one is a third generation builder in the area and the other moved here about ten years ago. The first it is said is THE builder and even today has a three year waiting list. Mention he built your house and everyone knows it's a proper job. The other has only been here two years but also has a good reputation. There is a third that comes in from outside the area who can start inside a year. I only know one person who had a house built by him and they were most disappointed (three years on and they are still waiting for the glass to be put in their lounge door), I have heard, second hand, about others having problems also. So it seems to me the longer the waiting list, in general terms, the better the builder although that's no guarantee of course.

With pricing always have everything written down (including the drain pipes running away from the house underground). Painters are very expensive here so you can save a few bob if you don't mind painting the inside yourself in which case make sure it's written down to 'decorating finish' which means the plasterboard screws etc are filled etc and all the walls ready to receive paint. Also insist that any changes by either party are listed on a separate Devis and signed by both parties else they won't be paid for and get that written in to the original Devis. If your going to manage the build yourself (rather than employ an architect) then get it written down that you will be sent photo's every fortnight to start with and that once the roof and windows are on and in then once a week. Use a master plan to mark power point's etc and both sign it. Once the plasterboard has gone up moving a power socket is very expensive so make sure you get it right. I have seen power sockets in strange places (that will never be used) when a builder has been left to his own devices. This may all sound excessive but it protects both you and the builder and leads to a more harmonious relationship as there is little room for argument about things not being done or for being in the wrong place.

Finally go to the doctors in advance for a bucket full of Prozac because your be needing them as the build proceeds.

Whatever you do don't compare the speed of a house build in the UK to one in France, here it's much slower but a good French builder will leave very little to be 'snagged'. Also add between three to six months on to any completion date your given and you won't be disappointed. Very few houses I has seen built here come in on time. Keep to all the above (and any other suggestions from forum members) and once it is done you will have a wonderful house which will give you many years of happiness, good luck.

[Daft Doctor]

Hi Quillan, that is all very sensible advice and the fussiness about the placement of mechanics and electrics is entirely in keeping with my own thoughts.  I was a GP until very recently, but over the years I was involved in building a new surgery building from scratch and subsequently having it extended several times (I was the only partner interested in that sort of thing).  Anyway, I remember sitting at home at night with plans, a pencil and desks, couches and chairs drawn to scale.  Only by putting these scale items in the rooms could I deduce the optimal postitions for the furniture and equipment for maximum functionality, but also, crucially, where power sockets, computer outlets and radiators would need to go.  I marked up the plans accordingly and hey presto.  I'll certainly be doing exactly the same thing for my own build, as too few or badly placed electric are as you say a pain to turn around.

We are already out here in rented accommodation so can spend time finding a good builder or contractors.  I had an hour long chat last week with an English estate agent who had nothing for us to look at but has just had her own house built and was keen to share the experience with me.  She used separate trades, a near-architect for the plans and a maitre d'ouvres to project manage.  Interestingly the sparkie she used was local and English and she said he did a good job at a decent price.  She reckoned having a maitre d'ouvres easily saved the 5% fee he charged, as he negotiated down the price of a lot of labour and materials for the job.  She offered to put me in contact with the people she used if we wanted and if we went ahead with a build so I will likely take that opportunity to at least consider all options. 

As you say Prozac would be a good thing and wil the contacts I have getting supplies wouldn't be a problem, however a destressing glass of red might be a more pleasant way of staying sane (in moderation of course).  Thanks again 

  

[idun]

Remembered, you'll need Assurance Dommages Ouvrages during the construction.

[Sprogster]

daft doctor, I am no means an expert, but when I looked at lots in France, I always made sure they had consent in place for a habitation up to a given size. Otherwise, there was no guarantee having purchased the lot, you could build to the size and height you want. It was very unusual if they did not have this consent, as it usually enhanced the lots value for relatively little outlay.

You don't want to find that the old chap you buy the land from dies before you build your house and his heirs then raise objections to your proposed development.

My advice would be to consult with a local architect, as building in the mountains is a specialised area.

[Quillan]

I can't stress enough how important it is to use properly qualified, registered and insured trades people here in France and that it is absolutely the norm to ask to see these documents, if they can't produce them don't use them and don't accept any excuses.This is one very good reason why I would use just one very good, highly recommended, French builder. He subs the work to people he (or she, don't want to appear sexist) knows and trusts because at the end he has to give you all the approval certificates for things like the electricians work etc and has to arrange insurance (or assurance in French if you like) to cover the whole building works for ten years (it's sot of equivalent to the UK NHBC). Yes they say it's free but it is obligatory as are the relevant certificates and of course the cost is hidden away in the price somewhere.

The insurance which he will get you is between you and the insurance company so should he (or she) go out of business for whatever reason you are still covered. I seem to remember a post a few years back where somebody had to use such an insurance. This is against workmanship as opposed to your normal house and contents insurance and somewhere in their small print it will say if the house is under ten years old you need that insurance and relevant certificates.

To be honest the French builders get a good deal on materials anyway or you can go to a local builders merchant with your plans and spec and they will give you a good price for everything if you buy it all from them. A lot of builders work this way (well round here they do) and you can pay the builders merchant direct and then the builder for the labour which is where he makes his profit.

Bringing in different trades yourself on a new build can turn in to a disaster. People walking away because X has not been done and needs to be before their Y can be done. What happens if unknowing to you they don't get on? No I would go for one builder to do and organise all.

As an example and excuse me for digressing a little. We had a French builder do a load of work for us and I generally followed what I have suggested with no problems. Two days after he finished a sink waste came away and the bathroom flooded. I phoned him at about 19:00 hours and at 21:00 he knocked at our door with the plumber held by his elbow, apologised profusely, dragged the plumber round to the bathroom, threw him in and told him to fix it. The builder waited till it was done, apologised again, made sure we were happy and off he went with the plumber. Listening to their conversation I learnt a lot of French swearwords, the builder was not very happy and told the plumber that he had put his reputation at risk.

As to Sprogsters comment about using an architect (even if it's just to get the right permissions and the drawings), I couldn't agree more. Whats the old saying "Buy in haste, repent at leisure", well something like that.

[Daft Doctor]

Good points Sprogster.  In this case the land has a recent certificat d'urbanisme and is in zone UB on the PLU.  The local regs specify a max COS of 0.6, a max height of 9.5m, minimum 4m from any boundary, architecture sympathetic to the style montagnard, etc.  It is certainly my intention to involve an architect at least to the permis de construire stage as you're right, this is a specialist area.

Idun, thanks for reminding me about the Assurance Dommages Ouvres, I had that in my list of costs and got my head around why it is needed/compulsory.

[Pommier]

We're also in the early stages of having a house built. As has been said, everything takes a long time! We visited several house builders in town, some of whom totally disregarded our budget or wish list. We finally settled on a very local company which is a co-operative of local artisans. They drew up (several!) plans, which were adjusted until we were happy, submitted them for approval and will do the whole job except for interior painting. Their price included dommage/ouvrage insurance, also insurance backed guarantees that the work will be completed to agreed date.

So far we feel (hope!) that we made a good choice, but the test will come when work starts in about a month.

[Daft Doctor]

An update for those interested - a bit of an eye opener!  We met on the plot with the agent (a different member of the team from the lady who took us originally) and the old gentleman.  Transpires that the tarring of the road isn't imminent, would need all 7 users of the impasse to sign up and contribute and the owner said it wouldn't be worth doing until his plot was eventually built on, as lorries and other plant would damage it (as he claimed happened when the next door property was built).  He did say however he would upgrade the drainage all the way to the main drain, make the plot viabilisé and improve the access on to the land from the access road.  We actually thought that as the impasse was on the steep and narrow side in places, in snowy weather a tarred suface may not always yield the best grip, so that it wasn't to be tarred in a hurry didn't bother us.  To have the promise of a plot viabilisé, with all services available seemed a reasonable compromise. 

We pondered it a bit more, waited a few days and eventually, having looked at some other plots again to keep perspective, somewhat reluctantly decided to offer the extra 5k to make the deal happen.  We went to the agent, spoke to our original contact there and offered the extra 5k.  We also recounted the outcome of the meeting on the plot, telling her the tarring wasn't going to happen, but effectively the vendeur was putting the services onsite instead.  At that point she took her pen, crossed through the 5 at the end of the number she written down as our offer and replaced it with a zero.  'I will ring him again with your original offer, and tell him that you are considering other plots', she said.  'I will ring you back'.  An hour later she did and he has accepted the original offer!!

Now who knows why she did it, but I was pretty impressed that the immobilier stopped us putting in a higher offer and seemed very displeased that the road wasn't being tarred.  That was in their description details so maybe that is why she wasn't happy, but either way we are meeting tomorrow to take things to the next stage.  On that note, is it usually a 5% or 10% deposit needed at Compromis stage?  I will need to get some euros across and I know the UK shuts down until Wednesday after the weekend.

Finally, perhaps to P-D, apart from a valid CU and reference to the cadastral plan and PLU, what other clauses particular to building plots should I look out for in the Compromis?  I will of course need to ensure there is a clause suspensive in relating to the vendeur making the plot fully viabilisé.  Thanks for any help or experience on offer, is it worth getting some UK based French legal advice?

[P-D de Rouffignac]

A coupe of quick comments on your latest update. Regarding the access road, it might be an idea to discuss with the other occupants about having it adopted by the local commune, who would be responsible for maintenance, upkeep, lighting, drainage etc. Otherwise it will always represent an additional cost to the residents.(In some French cities small, sometimes gated alleyways, such as a former mews housing stables are privately owned, each resident owning the area in front of their property to the centre of the 'road'. They have to get together to agree on major work such as re-surfacing). You need to check how the present access road is managed - who actually owns it?

Regarding the provision of mains services - these are in the hands of the various departments (sanitation), water suppliers and EDF etc so you need to be sure there will be access for example. to mains drainage ('egouut') otherwise it will mean a septic tank. Timescales for the above may be elastic. Also the Notaire needs to double check all the other legal aspects such as title, easements etc.

Re correspoding - two notifications received from the site operators but access denied to the messages, using one of those aggravating 'no reply' communications! Best to contact me direct via my website which has all my details. P-D.

[Daft Doctor]

Have emailed you P-D.  Access road definitely privately owned and not maintained by the commune, interesting to see if in medium term it could become so.  Definitely have passage of servitude, agent was clear about that.

Most mains services already there, drainage needs to be upgraded and vendeur is prepared to ensure that as part of the contract.  Be interested in thoughts on using Anglo-French legal advice?

[idun]

Our estate used to be fields and was bought by a company who got provisional planning permission for five houses. They had the drains put in, the street lighting put in and the road done, the Maire came and had a pot with the company and signed off on it as being done properly.

 

It was to be a private lotissement, the road and street lighting down to the owners and we all owned it jointly.

 

Well that road, had about half an inch covering on top of it and the drains were unfinished and simply covered in soil  in the plot neighboroughing ours.

 

Needless to say that the road being as it was, with five houses being built just became a rough track very very quickly.

 

 

Several years later, maybe about 7 after we had lived there, one neighbour decided that he would like the estate to become part of the commune and reluctantly the rest of us agreed.

 

We got a letter back from the Maire, who was 'in' again and who had been to the pot at the estate and signed off on it. He said that the estate was in a terrible condition and that we had not maintained it properly  the commune would only take it over if we paid £30,000 to get the road done, this was about 1990 and that was a lot of money for us all then and would be now to be honest.

 

We let it drop, but for our own comfort, had the bank leading down into the estate tarmaced. You mention bad weather, well I lived in the Alpes and tarmac is fine. It is far easier to clear than a rough track, in fact if everyone gets out there, it's done within an hour or three, if we hadn't worked together,  we would all have been stuck. Just keep road salt in, clear the snow away and put salt down, or just put salt down when it freezes......this works very well. I've done it enough on the estate and on our driveway. 

 

re the drains; well when it backed up to our house, we realised there was a problem, no one had bought the plot next door  and it was on that plot where the pipework had been left unconnected to anything. The company who had sold us the plots tried to squirm and wriggle their way out of it, so we set the DDASS on them and then they sorted it out properly.

 

 

You want a clause saying that he has to do the roads........ just how do you enforce this if he doesn't or dies and the heritiers don't want to. Do you know that it could go to court for years and years and years and years and you don't get the costs back if you win? I know as my friend bought a property and the person next door said that part of it was theirs. Everytime my friend won they did yet another appeal and so it went on and on and on. It became a feud and for all my friend is not rich, she is not poor either and so could afford this battle. The other people eventually died and the battle ceased.

 

And yet, he could do it, but what real guarantee do you have, I mean real guarantee?

[Daft Doctor]

Thanks for sharing your experiences idun, it certainly is a minefield.  We've dropped the requirement that the road be tarmacked for the very reasons you've mentioned.  It may never happen and if so it may not be in the old man's lifetime.  To have all services on site instead is much more enforceable as a condition of the compromis, i.e. no signing of the Acte de Vente until it's done and we've had any associated work inspected.

In the medium term, if once we have the experience of a winter or two getting home from the bottom of the hill we think the road would be better tarmacked, we'll see how far we get reaching agreement with the neighbours and even possibly discuss the issue of the commune adopting the Impasse, but at least that way we aren't paying extra for the land for a benefit which we might never see.