Dog experts?

[VandA]

We have a beautiful English Setter - just 11 months old.  She is pretty much house trained, except.....  Every now and then we come down in the morning to find a little 'package' (solid type) on the floor.  She sleeps downstairs in the buanderie, she is put down there at around 2230 and we let her out again at about 0730 ish.  Just before we put her downstairs we make sure she has been out - we let her out for about 20 mins or so - longer if she wants to go out.  We have taken to only feeding her once, in the morning.  She looks so longingly at our food in the evening! 

Is there something we should be trying?  Could feeding her at say 1600 really cause her to 'go' after 10 or 11 at night?  I though it was supposed to go through in about 40 minutes!

Any help gratefully received as we are certainly no experts!!

[Cj]

Dogs can do these things for a number of reasons. Perhaps something scared her in the night or she is suffering a bit of Separation anxiety. She could have perhaps did it a couple of times from one of the above reasons and now has developed a habit. Also how do you deal with it when you find her in the mornings? What do you clean it up with? She could be bored. Perhaps she needs a bone to chew on.

I really think you should be feeding her atleast twice a day. Dogs lives are so boring as it is that atleast feeding them twice gives them something to look forward to. It is also better for digestion.

I feed all the dogs in my kennels at 8am and 6:30pm and they never mess. So feeding at 16:00 will have no effect on wether she goes in the night or not.

YOu could try crating her overnight. This way she should hold on til morning as she will not want to dirty her area. Then once she has been clean for a number of weeks you can remove the crate or you can continue to use it as a safe secure place to sleep.

Please email me directly if you want to know more about crating.

CJ

http://www.chateaudesanimaux.com

[Catalpa]

<< I really think you should be feeding her atleast twice a day. Dogs lives are so boring as it is that atleast feeding them twice gives them something to look forward to. It is also better for digestion. >>

I agree, particularly re digestion and especially if your dog bolts food. We had clean through the night problems with one of our dogs in the far distant past and we put the evening feed back later - somewhere between 9 and 10pm - and it solved the problem quickly.

Carole

[VandA]

Thanks for the quick replies!

She certainly seems to be alright going down to her bed at night - its a lovely warm room anyway where the washing machine is etc.  She seems happy enough so hopefully separation anxiety is not a problem.  She also has a big rubber pulley thing that she is in the process of destroying so that is not it.  We really are struggling to find the common factor when she does it.  The only one we can come up with is feeding after 4pm..

Could it be feeding her left overs with her main food?  We should maybe try just dry dog food at around 6pm or something - it should definately go round the system by bed time?

The crate may be an idea - we can put a barrier up at least to keep her in her bed.  We have moved her bed to the spot where she seemed to have the habit of messing, thinking that that should at least remove one cue for her.

It really is a learning process this isn't it!

[Jouals]

We have an English Setter, and would definitely recommend splitting her food between 2 if not 3 smaller meals a day rather than one large one.  ES tend to have very delicate digestive systems, and it does not take much to upset the balance.  Feeding scraps with her meal could also be causing problems, we have found this out the hard way - for instance even a small piece of cooked chicken can upset our ES's stomach, as can cooked potato - things you would think are fine (and which our other 2 setter crosses have no problems with) in fact are not.  She is on a dry 20% protein dog food which we have found suits her (again the other 2 are ok on most dry foods - but anything with corn in seems to upset her stomach).  She never messes in the house, but if she has an upset stomach, she soon lets us know she wants to go out.  If your dog has eaten something in the evening that does not suit, and as she is still quite young, she may well be unable to hold on until morning!

Good luck.

Horris

[VandA]

Thanks Horris - I really don't know what to do at the moment -Any time we feed her after about 3pm we get a mess overnight, and anytime she has scraps we seem to get a mess in the daytime if she is left in for any time.

We are currently giving her a full bowl at around 10am, which she is eating most of in one go.. She does leave some though which she usually finishes off by about midday.  We have tried picking it up when she finishes and then putting a second bowl down later but that is not working.  And she always looks so sad when we are eating when we have to throw our scraps away!  And with two children we always have a lot of scraps!

Not sure what to do from here - just leave it at one feed and have no mess or persevere?

 

[Cj]

What make of food are you feeding her? Some foods consist mostly of undigestible filler that goes in one end and out the other. Such as most Supermarket brands. Therefore they are having to eat 3 times the amount to get the some amount of nutrients as a quality dog food. And the rest has to come out.

YOu should feed a high quality food such as royal canine, burns or james well beloved. This are easily digesible and therefore leaves less mess to clean up.

CJ

[Corinne]

If it was separation anxiety you would have more obvious signs than a just the odd poop on the floor in the morning.  You would more likely have peeing and crying.

If the poop is solid and normal looking I would rule out the upset tummy also. 

If the poop is not solid then I would start with cutting out the scraps, hard I know (my husband being one of the worlds biggest offenders) but it needs to be done so you can rule that out and maybe start to re-access the dog food you are using.  Get some plain dog biscuits to give at your mealtimes instead if it will ease your conscience  

However, if it all looks normal then it sounds like it is just a habit.  Your pup should be able to hold it all night but if she does not really know that it is not acceptable to do one during the night if needed then no real reason why she wont and once she has done it a few times it then just a habit.  I am no fan of a cage but if it help to break the habit overnight there is no harm done if she uses one as her bed for the night.  Another way is to confine her to a small area that can be completely covered with her bedding so not leaving her an area she will feel acceptable to use as a toilet.

All dogs have their own digestive schedule   As a guide our dogs is as follows (German Shepherd also renowned for delicate tummies).  She gets fed at 4pm and then again at 9pm when she goes to bed.  The 9pm is because if she does not eat soon before bed she will be sick (yellow bile) during the night.  She is up at about 6:30 in the morning but poops at about 9am on her morning walk and then again at 2pm on her afternoon walk with the odd one then in the garden at who knows what time but before she is in bed at 9pm.  She is 2 years old now but has been clean through the night from before she was 6 months old. 

Sounds like it is just going to take a little time and a redirection.  Best of luck.

[VandA]

It does sound more like it has become a habit rather than anything else - so it looks like we may need to try confining the area she can go in to just her bed for a while.   How long is the norm to break the habit like that?

I would have liked to have thought that at 11 months she was getting the hang of things but it would seem not!  We still have a lot to learn about each other!

Many thanks for all the advice here - I'll keep you posted...

[Corinne]

There is not norm I'm afraid. It is just going to be trial and, hopeful not to many, errors.  You could try it for a week and if she stays clean for the full time you could expand her area just a little.  Continue on unless she then errs, if she does then just go back to when she was ok and try again.

I really don't think that this has anything to do with her being not good at getting the 'hang of things' more than any other dog but more that we humans have a bad habit of expecting our dogs to know what we expect of them without really making it crystal clear   I am sure we are all guilty of that at sometime or other.  I thought that mine would know that ringing the bell was so she would be let outside for a pee and that it is not for being let out to bark at the local cats

[Susannah]

I just wanted to add my voice to those who have already advised you to give your dog two meals per day.  We kept on having problems with our labrador (who, incidentally, was older than your setter) - he would be 'clean' for numerous nights and then just when we least expected it we would come down to an unwelcome mess 'right out of the blue'. He would be utterly ashamed of himself and it really did seem that he couldn't help himself.

We couldn't attribute the fall from grace to anything different in his regime the previous day/evening and thus couldn't understand why it only happened sometimes. However, we decided to try splitting his food into two; after all it did seem an enormous amount for his system to cope with if it was at all delicate. I am happy to report that we haven't had one single unpleasant experience after taking this simple step. He now has breakfast around 8 a.m. and dinner around 5.30 p.m. and everyone, including him(!) is happy.

Good luck and I hope you find a similarly easy solution to the problem,

Susannah.

[Maddie]

You've had lots of good suggestions.  However cruel it seems to be I found using a crate for my young lab worked wonders.  We moved house several times when she was young and were recommended to use a crate at night for the following reasons:  the crate, if introduced correctly, becomes a den or a place of safety, comfort and refuge particularly if filled with comfy bedding, a small selection of unbreakable toys (under supervision of course)and perhaps covered over with a blanket to make it feel extra safe and cosy also, as others have said, dogs very rarely mess in their own beds.  In fact, my older dog used to try to sneak in for a sleep while we weren't looking during the day!  We only ever had one accident at night (of either variety) and that's when she ate something disgusting when out on a walk!  She loved going into the crate at night or for a nap during the day and we continued to use it for transporting her in the car.  Also a good quality food, little and often should help too.  You could try speaking to your vet just to eliminate any possible medical problems. Also, is she coming into season?  I had one bitch many years ago who was clean all year round except when she was just before or just after her season.  Then the little packages appeared!

Good luck!

[mutley]

I would just add that one reason for considering two meals a day would be that Setters in particular are very prone to bloat. ( deep chested breeds have a tendancy to bloat moe easily) splitting meals into two pportions reduces the amount of food in their stomach at anyne time and the risk of bloat and or twisting can be lessened as well as often importving digestion.  would have to go with looking at restricting her overnight until good toilet habits have been learnt and looking at altering feeding times to try to reduce the risk of her going through the nigh t needing to go

[Montcigoux]

I have had the same problem with my german shepherd cross breeds. At 11 months a dog may still not be totally reliable this tends to happen around 12 - 18 months. You did mention that you let her out last thing I wondered if you actually took her for a walk rather than let her out. It is actually the walking which stimulates production of the poo and of course a routine. If she is let out then she may only sniff about for a bit then not stimulate her bowels enough so that later in the night possibly soon after you go to bed she performs. I find that if I try and rush my dogs on the walk and they don't perform then I will have a poo on the floor in the morning. Not much fun walking a dog at midnight in the pouring rain and the scary dark but essential.

If you are not walking her I would split her meals as suggested by others and then take her for a walk last thing at night on a long lead and lots of praise when she performs. Alow about 20 minutes for the walk initially but you can get it down to 10 minutes once she begins to associate the walk with a poo. Even though she is no longer a puppy it may not be too late to associate a phrase with defecating such as "hurry up" or "be clean" or even the french equivalent so that she will go more or less on command. The idea of confining her to a bedding area is a good one. Also strict routine and dog only high quality food like IAMS or Royal Canin and no snacks to get regular solid poo.

Don't shout at her when she does poo as this will increase her anxiety. My dogs hide under the kitchen table when they hear me coming down in the morning because I once shouted at them in exasperation on finding poos!

[VandA]

UPDATE:

Well at the moment things seem to be going well - we now feed our dog twice a day, the last before 5pm.  We then ensure that rather than just push her out at bed time for a 'pee-break' we go with her and ensure she does her business.  So far so good.  We have had 5 clear nights although we come down every morning expecting to find a little 'parcel' for us...

So, no need for the crate so far, but we will wait and see.  She does seem happier with two meals a day rather than one tho!