Registering our Ford Transit minibus over here.

[Fil]

Hi,

when we moved over here four years ago we had a long wheel base landrover defender, which we sold for a more useful, but distinctly lacking in street cred according to our children, ford transit minibus.  We bought it in the UK (much cheaper) and took out 6 of the 15 seats to make it legal over here.  We managed to drive it here for quite a while, but now are re-registering it here.  But wow, what a long story that is!

The main problem is that when it left the factory it was a van (underwent almost immediately a Red Kite conversion) and that it is a long wheel base version.  Apparently these do not exist in France - odd this, as we keep seeing them now we are looking for them.  So we had to get a Certificate of Partial Conformity from Ford France.  €118 for that.  Then we got our tax certificate from the Hotel des Impots, no problems.  We got the CT no problems either.  All fairly straight forward, we thought, apart from the partial conformity.  Off we went to the Prefecture, but oh, no, we had to still go by DRIRE, which on reading the forms we had thought we did not need to do.

Sent off the forms to DRIRE and rang them up a couple of days later.  Yes, they wanted to see it.  They also wanted the empty weight of it.  I was going on the school trip, so off went my husband armed with weighbridge ticket they had told us to get.

It failed.  Guess why?  Because since we had taken the six seats out, and were left with a space, and presumably because once it was a van, we needed a load barrier.  Home came seething husband, armed with six or seven pages that they could have sent us in the post weeks earlier (we had waited about two and a half weeks for this appointment) and then he could have done this before he went.  Also, we had started with five rows of seats, making the 15 and had taken out all three in the back, then two, then one.  This left 3,3,2 and 1 and the bureaucrat at DRIRE told us the back one was too close to the back doors, despite the fact that we had started off with a row even nearer to them.  So husband took it out, put in the single one in front of it again, and we were back to 3,3 and 3, although in my opinion it is probably easier to fall out of the side door than the back one!

He made (himself) a fantastic metal grill and fitted it.  The information given said it had to make a load space no smaller than 1 metre, so he made one of 1.30.  There was a page and a half of maths as well, which we did, including working out the centre of gravity for the load space (Yc) and a puzzling bit that said if Yc had a negative value we had a problem.  No way to tell how it was to get a negative value though, just this dire warning.  What they should have said was that the load space should be equal to or greater than the distance between the back axle and the doors at the rear, because, as we found out this week, Yc got a negative value if the centre of gravity was behind the back axle, and guess where  ours was?  Yes, you've guessed it, we failed AGAIN!  I could see my husband controlling his impulse to use all the useful french swearwords we had looked up in the dictionary over lunch before going.

However, determined not to antagonise the bureaucrat before we had got our nice new number, we forebore from hitting him hard on the nose.  Wondering to ourselves just why this information is not given to you before you start, as he could so easily have done so the week before.  A simple sentence such as 'and make sure your load space is big enough because it has to be at least twice the distance from the back axle to the doors' would have done nicely.

Looking at the paperwork he had given us, I spotted that the distance from the rear seats to the doors in the diagram given was obviously too short, but guess how they get round that?  They measure at a height of 40 centimetres, and you are allowed to measure the space under the back row of seats as well!  This, in my opinion, does not constitute a proper load space, but there it was, marked clearly on the diagram.  Typical.

I am waiting until all our papers are done and dusted, and our lovely non PC ENGLISH minibus is sporting new french plates, then I feel a long vitriolic letter in french coming on.  Fortunately I am fluent nowadays and jolly good at complaining.

My husband and I are of the opinion that this is designed specifically for two reasons.

   1   To create jobs.

   2   To make you give up and buy a french car.

Well it won't work.

Anyone else had this kind of problem?

Incidentally, we now keep spotting french minibuses with load spaces and NO grill!  We are counting them!  We have french friends with a converted gendarme's bus that is now a horse lorry.  Believe me, if they break hard their horses will be driving! 

It seems so odd that all the authorities are not working to the same regulations!  If DRIRE are correct in making us install the barrier (we are not so cross about that as it is useful for the dogs - just their inefficiency in communicating the rules for it) why are there so many vehicles without them?  Very odd.  And if this is the correct regulation, are all the barrierless vehicles illegal, and as such not properly insured? 

Why cannot the french work to a single set of rules to simplify things?

Frustration!

There, got that off my chest now!

Fil

The said bureaucrat is actually coming to our house on Wednesday to inspect our work!  Fingers crossed he will be satisfied.

[Sunday Driver]

Fil

It can be a complex business getting a non-standard imported van/minibus vehicle through the type approval process and it's good to see you're getting there at last. You've clearly impressed the DRIRE inspector if he's agreed to come out to your house to complete the inspection!

You feel upset because it's not been straightforward, but rather than fire off a strong letter of complaint to the DRIRE, it's worth considering some of your points.

If the van had been unmodified, then Ford could have issued a straightforward certificate of conformity which will allow registration direct with the prefecture.  Because seats were added as part of the conversion then subsequently partially removed, as in your case, then the manufacturer will issue a partial CoC and the modifications will need to be subject to technical safety inspection by the DRIRE.  Where seats have been added, they will examine the new seat mountings as well as the new seat belts and anchorages. Where seats have been removed, this means the vehicle load characteristics have been altered and need recalculating to ensure it remain within safety specification.

You feel the French do not work to a simple set of rules.  In fact, the type approval process is a common one and all of the DRIRE offices operate to the same regulations.  Their websites contain all the necessary forms and guidance notes to enable you to prepare for the inspection.  These include schedules for converting vans into camping cars and minibuses, converting cars into vans and vice versa, trailers and caravans, motorcycle sidecars, fitting of GPL systems, etc, as well as weight distribution diagrams and calculation formulae.  The DRIRE would expect you to have obtained the necessary forms in advance so as to prepare your vehicle for the inspection.  The form that you were subsequently given which had the correct information clearly marked on the diagram is one of the forms in the downloadable pack.

The DRIRE inspection is primarily concerned with safety and is conducted by trained technical staff rather than by burocrats. It is the responsibility of the owner to ensure that their vehicle conforms to the regulations before submitting it to the DRIRE for inspection.  If a vehicle does not conform when presented for inspection, then the DRIRE must fail it.  In other words, the inspector was not being awkward, but just following the correct procedure.

This is not intended to be a criticism of you or what you've done, but more of a "let's just stand back for a moment" suggestion before you put pen to paper.  Hopefully it might also be of help to someone else who's embarking on the same process.

Regarding your point about seeing other similar vehicles on the road, these do not necessarily indicate that there are different rules - only that they have been modified by their owners at some time since initial type approval.

[Kitty]

I have just finished registering our own Ford Transit minibus - I got the carte gris from the prefecture last week.  It was a long and frustrating process and embodied all that is wrong with French bureauracy.  I was seething with rage from time to time about it.  I cannot see how France is going to compete in the global economy.  We had problems with DRIRE as well - which one was it?

[Kitty]

Sunday/Dave

As you will see from the other post, I now have a carte gris.  Yee haaaaaaaa.  Was all the effort worth it?  Time will tell...  I am in a hurry now but later in the week, I'll post some useful info for you to help others.

[Fil]

Hi Cathy, and everyone else,

firstly, the relevant information was NOT in the paperwork they gave us.  It SHOULD have said "the distance between the back door and the load barrier must be TWICE the distance between the back door and the back axle" which it did NOT say.  Then all would have been crystal clear.

Secondly, it was the DRIRE in Lanester, in the Morbihan.  I think you are in Bordeaux. 

Thirdly, he came out, took a quick look, passed it, and we have the new number!  HOORAY!  Is all I can say.  What a rigmarole that was!

We are not stupid, we speak excellent french, and we did everything they said, but they kept changing the goal posts.  We even did the very complicated maths on the forms.  Forms which they did not let on to us existed.  You expect when you contact someone to be given all the relevant information, or to be told, download it on the website, but they did NOT let on about anything.

Hohum, water under the bridge.

Fil

[Kitty]

It's great that you can now be so positive.  It's so frustrating going through the process of the carte gris.  I really think that the complex process is an indication of France losing its place in the global economy and am sad about it.  To compete in the world, France needs to sharpen up its act.  The French people (that I talk to) agree but just shrug their shoulders and say "c'est la vie".  It shouldn't be like this...

[Chezstevens]

I guess we were just lucky - 15 mins at the Prefecture at Niort and we had our carte grise for our UK car - delightful lady even helped fill out the form for us.  Helped that it was LHD and had a certificate d'conformite.

[Sunday Driver]

The Niort prefecture is very slick - they have a ticket queueing system just like the deli counter at Sainsbury's.  The staff are very helpful too.

Your point about the certificate of conformity is key.  To put things into perspective, the majority of UK cars brought over to France comply with EU/French type approval and sail through the re-registration process.  It's only a tiny minority of "non-standard" vehicles that have to go through the full single vehicle type approval safety inspection.  In this respect, France is no different to any other country in the EU.  You'd have to go through the same "hoops" anywhere else.

Fil - you made it in the end.  I reckon Crabtree's bonnet should get a champagne shower to make up for everything he's been put through .....[:D]