Fionah Posted September 4, 2004 Share Posted September 4, 2004 Have been reading this forum for some time now and have found it very helpful and informative - thank goodness for 'life experiences'! We are in the process of buying a house with attached two storey cave and also attached 600 sqm workshop and separate 'hen house' with the intention of turning it into several gites for all season rentals. We have been advised by an immobilier come builder-type friend of ours that we need to get an architect to draw up plans for our cave conversion as it is 150 sqm. The only external works we will be doing to the cave is putting in a front door and adding 2 french windows to the rear. The builders we plan to use are very competent and we have drawn up our own plans for the internal structures. With the large workshop we plan to take off a section of the roof and install a pool and block in the large doors to the front replacing with an entrance gate. Yet again we have drawn up our own plans and the builders are quite happy with their remit. The hen house is at the bottom of the garden and we can use the services laid on in the nearby workshop. We will of course get all necessary permissions from the Mairie to do the works the question is do we need an architect and if so for which element ???????Admin note - moved to this forum as originally posted in FAQs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moorejw Posted September 5, 2004 Share Posted September 5, 2004 If your development is over 170 square metres the rules require you to use a registered architect. If your cave is on the same parcel as your house, then the area of the house will be included. We had our plans returned after 3 weeks stating that we needed an architect, so it can severely slow down the process if you get it wrong. Planning permission is actually issued by the DDE not the Mairie, and I would advise caution in believing everything your Maire tells you!Did you get outline planning permission before you completed on your purchase (A Certificat d'Urbanisme)? If not, you might have a long wait!Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idealfrance Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 You are quite right in saying that you need an architect for a project that will have a net liveable surface area (SHON) of over 170m². The problem is calculating this area. Basically, you take the external measurements of your house, ie. walls included, subtract anything with a ceiling height of less than 1.80m, garages, terrasses, patios, etc. Then you multiply the result by a coefficient of 0.85. If this number is over 170m² then you need an architect to sign your planning application. There are other, more vague factors involved though. For example, if your loft can be converted then the DDE will almost certainly include this in liveable surface area - even if you don't intend to have it converted. The same goes for anything that could easily be used for habitation if even it currently isn't or isn't planned. Just a slight correction to John and Angie's comment: if the building concerned is not physically attached to any other buildings then the surface calculations apply only to the building in question - as will the planning application itself. Otherwise everything that is connected needs to be included in the calculation and represented on the application. It's not a question of the buildings that are on the cadastral parcel. Finally, it's always a good idea to get a CU - especially if you're buying to renovate (vital if you're buying to build new). It doesn't cost anything and will give you certain peace of mind - for a year at least. As John and Angie stated, without a CU it can take a lot longer to get your planning permission. Ben Symonshttp://www.idealfrance.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionah Posted September 6, 2004 Author Share Posted September 6, 2004 Thank you everybody for your help. I now know that we need an architect as the project is most definitely in excess of 170 sq.m. As we're meeting with the owners on Friday to agree suspensive clauses before we sign the compromis de vente then we'll make sure obtaining a CU is included. Continuing with the subject of the architect - can we just use him for drawing up and submitting plans or do we have to have him sign off against these plans once the works are completed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idealfrance Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 The planning application needs to be signed by an architect. An architect does not have the right to sign plans that he hasn't drawn up - can get struck off for this in fact. If you're going to use an architect to draw up the plans then he/she should sign everything as a matter of course. Ben Symonshttp://www.idealfrance.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macker Posted September 6, 2004 Share Posted September 6, 2004 We have come across this problem with our proposed development as well. We are converting some old stables attached to our house which are less that 170sqm. I spoke to an architect who told me that since the TOTAL living area after the development (i,e the living area of the development plus the living area of our existing house) exceeded 170sqm we must have an architects stamp (but they would say that wouldn't they). However, I spoke to the Mairie, in fact the mayor himself came to visit, and he said that so long as the new development did not exceed 170sqm there would be no problem. So who am I to believe? Submit the plans that I have spent months preparing only to have them sent back to me or say what the hell, curse the estate agent who lied through his teeth to me and dish out several thousand euros for someone to do what I have done already. Or maybe I should just do the work anyway as I am not altering anything but simply renovating existing buildings.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJSLIV Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 As Val2 has said elesewhere in cases such as yours the Maire's opinion is interesting but not authoritative. It is the DDE who decide planning cases, and you need to ask them whether they consider the involvement of an architect to be necessary. Having already drawn attention to your case by showing your proposals to the mayor, you would be ill-advised to proceed without authority, all manner of problems would undoubtedly result, and your subsequent application would be subject to even closer attention.You need authority becuase you are changing use and adding habitable space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJSLIV Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 As Val2 has said elesewhere in cases such as yours the Maire's opinion is interesting but not authoritative. It is the DDE who decide planning cases, and you need to ask them whether they consider the involvement of an architect to be necessary. Having already drawn attention to your case by showing your proposals to the mayor, you would be ill-advised to proceed without authority, all manner of problems would undoubtedly result, and your subsequent application would be subject to even closer attention.You need authority becuase you are changing use and adding habitable space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 Please can I piggy back this thread?Having struggled to get an architect interested in our idea of adding a two story habitable extension to our house, we finally found a local builder who has offered to draw up plans which he insists will be Ok for "planning permission". Reading the previous posts in this topic it seems we need an architect to sign off any plans anyway - is this assumption correct?Also, what level of details should these plans contain? I assume that all dimensions and materials should be shown and all relevant drainage/utilities. Apologies if all this has been asked before but failed dismally using the search function Stefan (09) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idealfrance Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 If the total surface area of the project is under 170m² (including all levels) then you don't need an architect to sign off and it's quite possible that your builder will be able to draw up the necessary plans for the application. Generally the floor plans should show the position of toilets, bathrooms and bedrooms as the authorities are only interested in the interior for taxation purposes. Not much precision is required here and once you get permission you can do whatever you want inside. The main part of the planning application concerns the exterior appearance of your property. The exterior though should show exactly what is going to be done pretty much to the nearest centimetre / colour of finish, etc. You'll also be required to state the waste water treatment system that is installed and make sure it is adequate for your intended use. Obviously, no problems here if you are on mains sewers. Ben Symonshttp://www.idealfrance.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackadder<IMG src="http:forums.livingfrance.comimagesline.gif"><BR>Blackadder<BR>Keighley and Creuse Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 As a 'keep your chin up' note.We used a local architect (Creuse, 23) we had never met...basically our immobillier had arranged for us to fly out and see a recommended architect, we flew out to find he had a broken leg and was hospitalised, the immo spent a few hours finding an alternate but would not allow us to simple browse the yellow pages, we must have one who comes with some recommendation. Highly impressed!They found an architect that a previous customer had used and we got a meeting on site later that same day. We had an English architect spend a few hours doing some 'sketches' as a cash in hand thing before we left so we got ideas of what was feasible. The one we picked included an integral garage to the barn. French architect said he wasn't happy with this as it would spoil a beautiful building putting a car in it and so did his own sketches and we were taken.We employed him and several months and a bit of to'ing and fro'ing of plans in the post later, we had the exact thing we wanted. He submitted them, got them passed and sorted evrything out with visits to the Mairie etc.Total cost was just above £1500. He saved us at least 2 trips out to France, so that was at least £300 each trip. He knew what would get passed and what wouldn't and was frank with us about that and also what would be effective in the design and what wouldn't. We had originally wanted to use a British architect and get the plans 'converted' to french but that may have cost as much, the guy would have had to use my measurements and photos as opposed to site visits etc.All in all we were very impressed with Monsieur Bergeron. The plans had no hitches, the local Mairie were very helpful, knew Mr B well and I think the whole thing went so well because of it.Imagine a local builder in Bradford using a French architect who has to ring the Planning office etc.......You may be pleasantly surprised at what an architect can do for your design, I had spent hours with various ideas but none compared at all to the plans we eventually got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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