TVA & Bathroom Refurbishment

[Richardk]

We are about to get firstly our own bathroom, and then the bathroom and kitchen of a seperate appartment refurbished. We're doing all the stripping out of old kitchen and all tiles in the various areas.  The plumber / kitchen fitter / whatever bloke is then removing and replacing the bathroom fittings, installing the kitchen and doing the tiling. He's quoting at 19.6% TVA rather than 5.5% which I thought would be applicable for this, as to me, it's renovation work...isn't it? Or am I missing something here....

Would someone explain the distinction between the two rates and let me know which one they think is applicable in my case?

Thanks,

Richard

[Val_2]

Are you buying all the materials etc? If so, then he does the labouring at 19,6%, otherwise if he is doing the whole thing from scratch including the removal,supply and fitting of materials and making good then he can charge 5,5%. At the moment there is a lot of problems for artisans in the building trade with the TVA people who are coming down on them for not charging the correct rate of TVA especially on projects where there is a permis de construire and very old and uninhabitale properties which are being seen as completely new properties at the end of the complete works. I presume the property you own is over 2 years old and is 50% or more of it is used at domestic habitation and not commercial. Another point is,is the artisan TVA registered or a special micro entreprise or something which does not come under the lower rate of charging TVA?

[Richardk]

The simple way of looking at it is that we are doing the donkey work of removing old tiles (c. 80% are being removed v's tiled over), and stripping out the old kitchen.  We are purchasing all materials except piping and any connectors which may be needed for plumbing in.

The company converned is a SARL and are installing all the items we have purchsed, tiling everywhere as necessary which is in effect the making good. His quote is made up of tiling (c. 600 euros), installation of bath, WC & washbason (1,050 euros - includes converting bidet pipework to WC) and plumbing material which he will supply for 300 euros.

I hope that clarifies things.

Richard

[Bobc]

Richard,

Val has answered your question very well.

I cannot understand why you have chosen to buy all the fittings, tiles, etc, for your kitchen and bathrooms yourself. You will have paid 19,6% TVA whereas your installer could have purchased them and charged you 5,5% as part of the total installation.

Assuming that your installer is legal, then they are charging around 2000 Euros to install, tile, etc a kitchen and two bathrooms with unknown materials and products that they have not sourced.

Without knowing the size of the kitchen and bathrooms, this would seem to be far too low.

Possibly they are in need of the work, but neither I nor any of the artisans that I work with would take on a job where the client has already purchased the materials and fittings.

You mention an amount for pipework, etc, have you allowed for tile adhesive, joint and all the other odds and ends that will be part of the final installation?

Regards,

Bob Clarke
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

[Richardk]

Hi Bob  -  why would I want to purchase material through the installer when he can't possibly offer the combination of range of products that I can source through local DIY stores, or let me actually see them all in the flesh to help us decide. So too, his products will in many instances be more expensive. We did get him to quote on installing and supplying the kitchen but for our needs, it just wasn't financialy justifiable, even with only paying 5.5% rather than 19.6%.

As I mentioned, the company is SARL registered.

My figures were perhaps confusing as what I was quoting was purely for the installation of one bathroom (c. 5 sqm).  The kitchen and second bathroom were not included in the figures although they will at a later date carry out that work I suspect.  

I notice that you 'nor any of the artisans that I work with would take on a job where the client has already purchased the materials and fitting'  -  in the 3.5 years that we've been living in France we've only ever worked with artisans who are willing to handle just the installation side of things!  This hasn’t been intentional, just the way it has happened and to date, we’ve never yet come across someone who won’t work that way. Perhaps it’s different where we are (originally Pyrenees Orientales and now Aude).       

We have purchased the necessary quantities of grout, glue, corner edging for tiling, and waste material for sink and bath. He is providing pipe work to get from supply pipes to taps, and for connecting into the main waste pipe system. This includes any elbow joints, etc….

Thanks for your reply.

 

Regards,

 

Richard

 

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Richard,

You're indulging in Brit thinking in France.

Never mind. Val explained. If the plumber supplies and fits, he charges you 5.5% If you supply and he fits you pay 19.6% for both.

This was legislation introduced to help the building trade, not the householder, so it was drafted to encourage people to use their local artisans. That's the logic, which I find perfectly simple.

If you had asked your local plumber in advance about this question of VAT, you might have been able to find a compromise solution. I suspect that if you had just done all the heavy work of removing old stuff etc, he would have been able to charge the lower rate. It was the fact that you were expecting him just to fit, that drove the rate up.

I might add, that some plumbers simply refuse to fit stuff that you've bought. I got royally caught once when fitting new windors, had to get new radiators in a rush, so popped down to the local trade place and got them and then asked the plumber, who was coming in any way for another job, if he wouldn't mind adding on the fitting of these radiators. Not only did he refuse, but he refused to come for the other job either! In the end I fitted them myself. Pig of a job, as the previous radiators were positioned FAR too near the floor.

[Will]

I understand there can be potential problems with a tradesman's insurance if he fits items you have supplied rather than better-quality ones that he has more confidence in.

 

[Richardk]

Hi Ian  -  thanks for the reply.  I should say that my previous response to someone else had been a bit tongue in cheek....I can see pro's and con's to both scenarios. There is absolutely no doubt that we are saving money buying the bits and pieces ourselves v's what our installer / builder (not sure what to call him really) would have charged us for the items he proposed to us - even taking into account the varying rates of TVA. It's not an anormous project but we're saving in the region of 20%  - worth having as I'm sure you'd agree.

What would have been an interesting discussion to have had mind you would have been if we could have chosen the fittings and he then bought them. We'd have been quite happy but this has never been suggested to us by anyone before and we've never thought to ask as the assumption has been 'he' wouldn't want to as it's not the range he supplies. We have bought most stuff from Castorama, then Lapeyre followed by Trydome here in Narbonne.

Next time we'll ask the question as in the scenario you paint all sides win. I'd be quite happy not having to transport a 3.2m length of kitchen work top home.....

[Bobc]

"Hi Bob  -  why would I want to purchase material through the installer when he can't possibly offer the combination of range of products that I can source through local DIY stores, or let me actually see them all in the flesh to help us decide. So too, his products will in many instances be more expensive. We did get him to quote on installing and supplying the kitchen but for our needs, it just wasn't financialy justifiable, even with only paying 5.5% rather than 19.6%."

Dear Richard,

Sounds like you do not have an over-helpful installer. For bathrooms and tiling I use Wendel SA in Villeneuve-sur-Lot (members of www.gapsa.fr) and for kitchens I use Lapeyre. In both cases I give potential clients catalogues from which they can make initial selections and then go to the showrooms and inspect the products and make their final selections. The showrooms then produce a devis which the client passes to me and I purchase the fittings and then supply and install at the lower rate of TVA.

With the best will in the world, I would not expect my clients to have to work out tile quantities, allowing for cutting, or the correct adhesive or joint to use. I would not want to arrive on a job and be presented with adhesives and joints purchased from a brico rather than from a professional carrelage supplier.

If you do want to buy the materials yourself, then take the time to look at the professional suppliers rather than bricos such as Castorama. Most of them have trade counters which are very helpful and have far lower prices than the bricos.

Regards,

Bob Clarke
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

[Richardk]

Hi Bob  -  I know this is off the topic of my original question however, almost for the sake of others how they may think things work I need to reply.

Between Perpignan and Narbonne where we live CCL are a large supplier of all things building  -  whether it be a kitchen to real building material. In terms of kitchens they are positioned above the options of Castormana, Brico Depot and Lapeyre but below some of the more exclusive and expensive kitchen design outlets which are around. We first worked with CCL around 2.5 years ago  -  they do not have their own team of fitters, rather you buy (in our case) your kitchen from them and then use a third party fitter who does the installation only. They will help you find a fitter if necessary from a list they keep.

Our current fitter is one of the companies we used 2.5 years ago via CCL. He is a fitter for their kitchens and for another range he offers which are not available via the brico's mentioned above. Not a 'kit' in site but all pre-build frames etc... Although he offered us his range and went through the catalogues, for our specific needs (which aren't relevant here) it was overkill. Maybe he would have been willing to source a kitchen from another source, maybe not. As I mentioned we didn't ask and he didn't say. He is suppying all joints and pipework hence no problem there. He has also worked through and told us the square meterage of tiles required (as previous workmen have done) and is happy for us to buy all grout and glue from a local brico who do on a comparison offer competitive prices.

We're happy with him and the materials  -  he is happy with us as clients and in full knowledge of the materials we are buying. As I mentioned in another post to this thread, there is a place for suppliers who will (only) supply and fit, and a place for those who fit only. Indeed, thats how one of the biggest suppliers in the Pyrenees Orientales area works themselves.

Thanks to Val_2 and Ian I now understand the distinction between the two rates of TVA which is what my original post was all about. From yourself and Ian I now understand how I may be able to work differently with suppliers in the future if I wish.

Thanks you to one and all for your input.

Regards,

Richard

[Lizzie15]

Hi.The carpenter told us that TVA at 5.5 % was due to end this summer and devis' he is sending out for autumn all have TVA at the higher rate ( no, he wasn't touting for trade!!)-anyone else heard this?

 

[Punch]

[quote]Hi.The carpenter told us that TVA at 5.5 % was due to end this summer and devis' he is sending out for autumn all have TVA at the higher rate ( no, he wasn't touting for trade!!)-anyone else heard thi...[/quote]

I'm afraid your carpenter is wrong. The lower rate of TVA at 5.5% is here until at least the end of December 2005. Our trade body the CAPEB, have been lobbying for this to continue after this date but the truth is (just like last year), nobody yet knows if the lower rate will remain for 2006.

Paul 

 

 

[Audois]

Richard, richard, richard ....

Tut, tut ...!!!  Your builder should be able to also get up to a 25% discount on any 'bits' you wanted ... that's the way the team work it in and then quote at 5.5%!!!

Never mind! Next time!!!

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi Lizzie,

He probably heard it from a guy in the local bar, who had it from a TF1 journalist.

I hadn't heard that the scheme was due to end before end 2005, and I usually do get told about such changes.

[Val_2]

We are expecting more postcards from CAPEB any day now to send onto Brussels again like last time the 5,5% was due to end. No one will know until at least November earliest what the decision will be but I have been warning potential clients that they should be prepared to save more money to pay for their works in case.