plumbing - can I bring supplies from the UK?

[chocccie]

Does anybody have any advice on French plumbing fittings versus UK?

Are they compatible, or can they be made to fit?  IE, if I want to bring over a bath, will I be able to connect it up in France.

Cheers

[Opel Fruit<P><BR>Opel Fruit, Dept. 53<P>]

There are some similarities between the 2 plumbing standards.

(I would point out though that sanitary products like loos, sinks, showers, baths and fittings (such as taps) are far cheaper in France than the UK.)

The French use 32mm and 40mm drain pipe, which ARE different than the UK. And there are no compression or slip-fit fittings - it is all solvent weld. This point seems to have been overlooked by many. The only compression fittings are on the traps.

The tap fittings etc are the same, 3/8, 1/2 and 3/4 known here as 12/17, 15/21 and 20/27 respectively.

Pipe is available in 10/12/14/16/18/20mm and is NOT compatible with any UK fittings. Some fools claim you can mix 15mm UK pipe with 14mm French pipe  - not so. 22mm and 28mm are identical to the UK.

All French copper pipe is soldered using 97% Tin/3% Silver solder. This is predominantly due to the water pressure, which has a target minimum pressure of 5 bar here - French regs prohibit the use of cold, unpressurised water storage tanks.  You could argue that central heating pressure is limited to 3 bar, so soft solder could be used.

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi,

As Opel fruit said, don't try to mix and match on copper pipework. I found that brazing using end feed in France vastly easier than using soldered yorkshire fittings in the Uk (I put in my own plumbing both in the UK and in France). Once you discover how the fittings sizes are described, it's a doodle. A major plus with the french system is that pipe walls are 1mm, so you don't need complicated reducing Ts. You take an equal T (say 16mm) and if you want to feed off in 10, you stick a bit of 12 over the 10, then 14 and finish off with some 16mm pipe into the T. Yes, you've got several endfeeds to do, but with a decent circoflam burner, it's really easy. No need to clean up inside and outside, and all you need to do is to moisten the outside of the pipe, dip it into the flux powder, stuff it into the hole a suitable distance and then heat like hell. When it's hot enough to melt the rod, you just touch it round the join and it melts and gets sucked in.

As for drains, they're also pretty easy. You need acetone to clean up the joints, then squirdle some glop onto the male part of the joint, quickly push it in with a 1/4 turn and leave it a few minutes before applying mechanical stress. IIRC it's best to leave an hour before using the drains with water, though I could be mistaken here. If you CAN, buy the drain fittings here first (very cheap) and see if they fit the waste holes in sink/basin and bath, before buying these in the UK. If they fit, then the fittings will match onto the french pipery.

But I want to underline what Opel Fruits said, you may be surprised at how reasonable much of the sanitary hardware is.

[LesFlamands]

Also, inexpensive mains pressure properly insulated hot water cylinders are the norm rather than a rarity as in the UK. Sanitary ware and taps are generally much cheaper here than the UK.

In my opinion, you are much safer sourcing all central heating materials in France from the point of view of guarantees and availability of spare parts.

Brazing is easier, more reliable and more versatile than soldering especially if you use self fluxing rods. Brazing copper to brass is a bit more tricky and due to the heat take care not to burn the house down.

[chocccie]

Hi folks

Thanks for the advice.  It's really good to hear from people who obviously know what they're talking about, rather than those who can't help themselves posting a reply to everything!

Cheers!

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi,

Just a quick comment on what Charles had to say.

======

Brazing is easier, more reliable and more versatile than soldering especially if you use self fluxing rods. Brazing copper to brass is a bit more tricky and due to the heat take care not to burn the house down.

======

Agree about the self fluxing rods, but as I use belt and braces - especially in places where it will be a major PITA to try to rebraze afterwards - I like to add a little extra flux anyway - doesn't do any harm.

Also agree about brazing brass, and this is a case where flux is essential. That said, my problem with brass has been its relatively low softening point, so when brazing it, you have to be careful you don't braze a semi-molten - deformed blob onto your nice piece of pipery, instead of the 3/4" pipe threaded connector you _thought_ you were going to fit!

I only once nearly burned the house down - that was when we discovered the ONLY join which leaked in the whole installation (A T on the main riser, feeding the kitchen). It was tricky to remove so we tried to redo it in situ - about 1" from a torchis wall! Although we used some plumbers' glass fibre reflective cloth, it got DAMNed hot behind - I should have used a piece of plasterboard as belt and braces again.

However, nothing that a quick squirt from the garden sprayer (kept on hand "just in case") didn't calm down nicely.

[Bobc]

"The French use 32mm and 40mm drain pipe, which ARE different than the UK. "

I would certainly not suggest that anyone should bring plumbing supplies from the UK, but what is the difference between UK and French 32/40mm pipe?

As an alternative to the hassle of brazing pipes, consider using the PER system - available from any decent professional supplier (www.gapsa.fr) or from the bricos at vastly inflated prices.

Far cheaper than copper pipe, available in very long lengths which is ideal for underfloor installation.

There is an initial investment of 250/300 Euros for the clamping tools for the brass fittings, but this is quickly recovered in time saved on installations.

Regards,

Bob Clarke

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

[LesFlamands]

We now use PER for first fix with the sliding collar type fittings. As Bob says it's a total rip-off if you buy it in the Bricos but cost effective from plumbers merchants. Rigid copper pipe still has its' uses and we still use flexible copper for oil and gas tanks.

I've no idea if 32/40 mm pvc is compatible with anything from the UK but who cares - just buy what you need here and don't get involved with UK fittings in France.

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi Bob

You said:-

======

As an alternative to the hassle of brazing pipes, consider using the PER system - available from any decent professional supplier (www.gapsa.fr) or from the bricos at vastly inflated prices.

======

What hassle? As long as you have a good hot flame, I can hardly imagine anything much easier. Having come from the UK system of Yorkshire/end feed capillary and solder, with all the attendant wire wool-ing and cleaning and green glop for fluxing, I found brazing a total doddle. But then I've not tried non copper fittings here. In the UK, all my cold water was run in uPVC and (apart from a stress induced break at the join between steel and plastic, which flooded the back extension 4" deep while I was on holiday) never had a problem.

Mind you, if PER is significantly cheaper and quicker then it must be worth considering - is the range of fittings as good, and is it as easy to increase/decrease pipe diameter?

[Bobc]

Ian,

For a one-off job on your own property then using traditional copper pipe and brazing is a reasonable way to go.

If you are doing it commercially then PER offers a lot of advantages:

Available in long reels - up to 240m - very economical per metre and far cheaper than copper.

Pre-installed in gaine for laying in slab, through walls, etc.

You can install long complicated runs with the minimal amount of joints - very important in slab or any area that cannot be accessed later.

Whilst not freeze-proof, far more freeze-resistant than copper piping.

When installed, far quieter in operation than copper pipe.

Supplied in red and blue - no confusion on a large installation!

Huge range of fittings, including pre-fabricated shower/bath panels with the centres at 15cm - whilst the fittings are more expensive than those for brazing, the difference is quickly saved in installation time.

The downside to PER is that it is unattractive - for pipework that will be on display then painted copper or chrome would be needed.

If you want to discover more about PER (PEX in the US):

www.ppfahome.org/pex/faqpex.html

I use PER pipework from Watts industrial:

www.wattsradiant.com/homeowner/plumbing.html

Kind regards,

Bob Clarke

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

[mmzz]

take it from one who knows (i.e. dont make the mistake I made). Stick to french fittings and do it the french way

[Alcazar]

OK guys, one of my next tasks is going to involve plumbing so here are a few questions:

What on earth is a "circoflam" ? Is that a trade type name, and where would I buy one?

Does brazing need an oxygen cylinder too, or just butane/propane?

WHY don't the joints need cleaning before brazing?

Is all flux alike, or is one type better than another? What do I ask for?

Thanks for any advice,

Alcazar

[Ian Hoare<br>All the best<br>Ian<br>La Souvigne Corrèze<br>http:www.souvigne.com]

Hi Alcazar,

To be honest I'm not sure whether Circoflam is a trade name or not, but it's a type of burner in the form of a C which enables you to concentrate far more heat on the part of pipe to be brazed. You can see where you would put the pipe.

IF you get that type of burner you won't need oxygen, and unless you've had some experience with oxy-gas flames, I'd not really recommend them as it's very easy to over-heat with them.

The joints don't need cleaning, partly because the reactivity of copper at high temperatures and the CO present in the gas flames serve to remove much of the film of copper oxide, and partly because the brazing fluxes are more efficient.

As long as your flux is designed for brazing, I don't think ther's a huge difference, though I would welcome more info from a professional on this. Remember that you can buy self fluxed brazing rods, so using ANY flux (except with brass, where it's essential) is rather a case of belt and braces.

As I'm sure you know, flux is simply there to make sure the molten metal of your brazing/soldering medium makes a really good seal on the copper/brass of your pipework/fittings.

[Opel Fruit<P><BR>Opel Fruit, Dept. 53<P>]

Flux is there to ensure the metals don't oxidise while they are being "handled".

Older aggressive fluxes (for soft soldering) also have an etching effect on the base metals which causes pitting if left on too long.

It is vitally important that both the pipe and fittings are thoroughly cleaned before use, and flux is applied immediately to prevent surface deterioration.

[Julie & Steve]

Hi

 

Just wondering what the arrangement for soil pipe and vent is in France - is this the same as the English system with the vent coming above the eaves of the house or are there admittance valves that can be fitted to avoid airlocks?

 

Please help, coming over soon to start work on our shell, no toilet!!!

 

Julie

 

 

[Opel Fruit<P><BR>Opel Fruit, Dept. 53<P>]

Admittance valves appear to be the norm. Inside too!

[Julie & Steve]

Thanks for that, next question, where is the best place to obtain plumbing supplies from around Ceret?

Cheers

Julie

 

 

[Steven Nixon<P>Many thanks<P><P>Steven Nixon<P><P> <P>]

French copper pipe sizes are not compatible with UK sizes. French sizes are normally 12mm, 14mm, 16mm 18mm whilst UK are 15mm and 22mm generally. If you want to join French Copper to UK Plastic or copper pipe you will need a Connector available from a company based in the UK who will ship these connectors and UK plastic pipeork to mainland France. We plumbed our complete house in one day using this system. It really is very easy.

[Bobc]

"French copper pipe sizes are not compatible with UK sizes. French sizes are normally 12mm, 14mm, 16mm 18mm whilst UK are 15mm and 22mm generally. If you want to join French Copper to UK Plastic or copper pipe you will need a Connector available from a company based in the UK who will ship these connectors and UK plastic pipeork to mainland France. We plumbed our complete house in one day using this system. It really is very easy."

Other than promoting your own business, what is the point of your posting,

Why on earth who anybody want to bring pipework or connectors from the UK.

If you want a fast plumbing solution then all the products are available from professional suppliers in all areas of France.

Having looked at the website, you seem to have pretty high prices for basic fittings.

Regards,

Bob Clarke
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux

[Julie & Steve]

I thought Steve's answer was very helpful Bob, not everyone has the time to shop around in France.  We have only two days to plumb a bathroom in and although we have with us a British, Corgi Registered plumber, we still need some advice.  In a new district (not to mention a new language), finding information and supplies is extremely time consuming.  To know that you already have your materials to hand is sometimes worth a little extra cost when time is short.

[Steven Nixon<P>Many thanks<P><P>Steven Nixon<P><P> <P>]

The reason I, and perhaps many other people may prefer to have UK plastic pipe for plumbing in France, is that it is very easy to install and appears to be a far more advanced product than the range available in France. That is certainly my opinion. Fot DIY it is much much easier and faster than copper, and it is now becoming the norm for new build houses in the UK as well.

The fittings prices appear high but are in fact only 10% higher than B&Q, 6% helps with shipping cost and the credit card payment system take the other 4% and they hold the money for up to six weeks. The high pipe costs include a significant part of the shipping cost because you are charged by volume not weight when something is light, and a coil of pipe is a lot of empty space.

Overall, if I was faced with the choice of using French plastic or copper plumbing, finding a decent local plumber, or getting some UK plastic plumbing delivered directly to me and getting the bulk of the job done, then paying the shipping charge would seem a pretty good option.

The above ground waste pipe in France is reasonable stuff ( but not to be mixed with UK ) and can be sourced locally along with other bits, but for the water distribution pipe, for the DIY installer, the PolyFit plastic pipe is ideal.

Thats about it really.

 

 

 

 

[LesFlamands]

If you don't have the time or language to source materials in France and/or such a bad attitude towards French materials and techniques please stick to renovating houses in the UK.

This forum is here to help those who wish to renovate their French property in a professional manner in accordance with French norms.. This ongoing comparisons between the cost of UK and French plumbing fitings and the pro and cons of ring mains and twin and earth cable compared to the French electrical regulations are ,in my view, pointless.

The PER plastic plumbing used in France is readily available in 4 sizes (12,16,20 & 25) through professional outlets. If you have a reasonable amount to do it may be worth investing in the special tool to avoid using the costly screw together fittings available from the Bricos.  

[Julie & Steve]

We are driving a transit van down from UK to near Ceret 20 miles  SW of Perpignian  this week to start renovation work on, what to us, is a huge project. #1 priority is to get a toilet and some means of getting washed up and running. To do this we have to move an underground 100mm drain (some sort of clay/biscuit ware) which at the moment comes up from under the concrete floor in the middle of the house in front of the fireplace in the lounge. Nice and warm but not much privacy. The plan :

• Because UK waste pipe sizes seem to be all different, and we enjoy the challenge of playing charades with the local builders merchants, spend Friday shopping for kit, but we need to find somewhere to buy all the materials needed to do the job. Preferably somewhere with  counter staff who are sympathetic to foreign brits with less command of the language than a Klingon at a AA meeting.
• Excavate the drain far enough back along the living room floor to get sufficient fall to divert and extend it using new (PVC?) pipe to come up above the floor in the far corner of the house.
• Get more pipe because we had to excavate further than anticipated.
• Split the drain for an upstairs and downstairs toilet and basin and allow provision for introduction of future kitchen waste water and bathroom  waste.
• Fit the pan. Pipe up the water (FGB looks favourite) grab a copy of 'Le Monde' and test.

We could install everything as we would in the UK using an outside vent, proprietary fittings, connectors couplings and convertors etc., but would rather  follow the "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" philosophy.

Is the French range of fittings etc. similar to the UK? Is an admittance valve a direct replacement for a  soil vent? any pearls of wisdom that you could offer?

Thanks

S&J

 

   

 

 

[LesFlamands]

Is there an existing septic tank or do you have mains drains?

Admittance valve is fine but there is also supposed to be a secondary vent for a septic tank (after the tank).

Most PVC fittings and pipe are available from most builders merchants. You may need a plumbers merchant to source the Durgo valve.

[Bobc]

 "The reason I, and perhaps many other people may prefer to have UK plastic pipe for plumbing in France, is that it is very easy to install and appears to be a far more advanced product than the range available in France. That is certainly my opinion. Fot DIY it is much much easier and faster than copper, and it is now becoming the norm for new build houses in the UK as well.

The fittings prices appear high but are in fact only 10% higher than B&Q, 6% helps with shipping cost and the credit card payment system take the other 4% and they hold the money for up to six weeks. The high pipe costs include a significant part of the shipping cost because you are charged by volume not weight when something is light, and a coil of pipe is a lot of empty space.

Overall, if I was faced with the choice of using French plastic or copper plumbing, finding a decent local plumber, or getting some UK plastic plumbing delivered directly to me and getting the bulk of the job done, then paying the shipping charge would seem a pretty good option.

The above ground waste pipe in France is reasonable stuff ( but not to be mixed with UK ) and can be sourced locally along with other bits, but for the water distribution pipe, for the DIY installer, the PolyFit plastic pipe is ideal.

Thats about it really."

What is more advanced about the UK products that you are promoting, rather than those which are readily available in France?

Certainly the PER system is much faster to install than copper and surprisingly we have been using it in France for a number of years.

Your fitting prices are very high, even allowing the cost of shipping to France - your pre-gained pipe is around twice the price of the nearest equivalent French sourced pipe - again, why would you want to ship materials to France that are readily available here.

Good to hear that French waste pipe meets your standards - saves us from importing it from the UK.

You did not answer my original point about promoting your own business.

Regards,

Bob Clarke
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/grindoux