Fosses septiques and anti-biotics.

[Alcazar]

Just recently read a thread on here about a smelly fosse, in which one respondent asked if anyone in the family was taking anti-biotics.

Now we are going over this saturday, and we have a fosse. We also have a member of the family who has been given anti-biotics to help clear up.............wait for it...........a lower bowel infection.

I'm a little worried, obviously, as to whether the a/b being taken to kill one type of infection, will also kill the stuff in my fosse.

Anyone got any suggestions, recommendations etc?

TIA, Alcazar

[Motorhead]

As it happens I wrote a reply to an email from another member on this very subject only yesterday so here's one I made earlier as they say on Blue Peter

"There has (as with "biological" tank additives) never been a study made on the subject that could be written up in a proper peer reviewed journal but the fact remains that antibiotics do not discriminate between good and bad when killing bacteria . There is some anecdotal evidence to suggest that they have hampered septic systems rather than caused them to fail.

My gut feeling (good term that) is that egested antibiotics have no noticeable effect on bacterial populations already present in the tank.

However, bearing in mind that the main workers in the tank are what are termed as fecal coliforms, each jobby that is flushed down the pan is already innoculated  and ready to be broken down - unless the person "doing the business" is on antibiotics. This is of no great concern in public drainage systems as the proportion of bacteriologically dead jobbies is going to be averaged out to quite a low level (might be different if there was an epidemic going on) but in a private system where half the jobbies over the course of a week or so are going in "dead" it would be easy to imagine a problem."

Now I dont know the full story here so I'm going to make a couple of assumptions:

1) The fosse hasn't been used for a while and would probably be pretty "dead" anyway (the bacteria don't last as long in the hot weather.

2) Your family member is not going to be responsible for a great proportion of the load on the tank and the more of you there are the less this will be. Also I get the impression that they have a diverticular infection of what is known in French as (wait for it) "the fosse iliac gauche" and as such they should be on a "regime dietique sans residue" so they won't be crapping much anyway.

If the above assumptions are correct then I wouldn't be overly bothered about it. Any more info required - just ask.

 

[Chrisb]

.............................or you could just pop a double dose of Eparcyl down the pan to be on the safe side!!!

Chris

[Teamedup]

I always put an extra dose of bugs in the loo as soon as the person has stopped taking the antibiotics and allowing for the antibiotics to have passed through their system.

[Motorhead]

Yeah just chuck a bit of eparcyl down the bog, out of sight out of mind. There are 2 problems with this.

First one is the efficacity of the so called biological additives. There has NEVER been a proper scientific study into how useful “biological” septic tank additives are and even if there was there is absolutely no labeling requirement to tell you exactly what you are getting. If you are going to use an additive make sure you are getting your money’s worth. Not an advert but Formula-33 from Organica UK is the only stuff on the market right now that I’d buy. It’s not cheap at over 20 quid for half a pound but Oganica is the only company I have found who will actually supply a list of  ingredients and they do actually guarantee the efficacity of their product when used at temperatures between 10 and 40 degrees centigrade. Even then they don’t claim it to be a replacement for the naturally occurring coliforms but only as a complement to them.

Second problem is bacterial motility. Bacteria can’t move about all that much of their own accord. Some flagellate species have better motility (in water) than others but it still aint much. Generally bacteria have to rely on environmental turbulence (wind and water) for dispersal and septic tanks are specifically designed to minimise turbulence so that separation and sedimentation can occur. So if you’re going to use an additive don’t just chuck and flush it all at once, throw in a pinch every time you dump. Better still, mix it with unchlorinated or dechlorinated water then take the lids off the tank and pump it all over and into every corner underneath the crust

[Jonzjob]

Hi Motorhead,

We lived in a cottage in the Cotswolds for 23 years before comming to live here in the Aude. We had a septic tank there and all sorts of things were thrown at it that would have made a French fosse turn up it's toes. It was shared between 2 houses and our neighbour used whatever was the cheapest on the market without a thought for the tank. It worked well for all the time we were there and had to emptied about 3 times during that time.

Please, can you tell us what the difference is between the 2 systems?

John.

P.S. We also had the most wonderful Victoria rhubarb growing on the side of the tank where the water came out!  One year one of the sticks weighed in at 4 1/2 lbs and was very tasty ... We never did get round to splitting that plant?

[Teamedup]

So how does Bio7 compare to formula 33.

Us none scientific sorts can only do as advised and hope that it works. I'll touch wood that so far the advice I have been given and taken has been sound.

[Hegs]

I only use Tarax 6 months which claims to be resistant to antibiotics (the granules are quite big not powder like some of the others).

As our fosse noticably suffered when someone was on antibiotics when we used other products, and now doesn't for roughly a six month period, I conclude that it does what is says on the tin.

There is what looks like a fairly good summary of the research done here:

http://www.egr.msu.edu/age/aenewsletter/1_march_april_05/loudon_septicTankAdditives26.pdf

 

 

[Motorhead]

I really don't have enough info to comment much on Jon's old tank but I would guess that it was one of the old type that didn't take the greywater. This type is actually more biologically stable but it is more polluting, particularly where phosphates are concerned, which is why they will be (theoretically) illegal in France after the end of this year.

It is probably right to say that I have a problem with additives in general. When a jobby (from a person free of antibiotics) is flushed away it is already innoculated with bacteria from the family Enterobacteriacae. Now when you flush some eparcyl or whatever down the pan it has to find its way to its food in an environment that makes this difficult ie still water. The bacteria will get to the food source but only eventually and most people use these additives to speed things up.

 Bacteria are a bit like Brits abroad – they like to keep to their own colonies. Lets imagine that people are bacteria and that Greater London is the septic tank (probably not that hard). Apart from the very centre London used to be a collection of independent towns and villages like Hampstead surrounded by countryside but which joined up through urban sprawl and bacteria work best in a similar way. When you flush a dose away you get one large colony (which may or may not be near enough to an adequate food source) instead of lots of little colonies dotted all over the place which would be the ideal . I see that over on TF there is a guy selling a metered dosing system that pumps a small amount of additive away with every flush. This is a very good idea but it relies on a liquid additive and I have serious concern about how long liquid additives actually stay alive without refrigeration,

The other problem with additives is that you are seldom told what’s in them. The only statutory declaration that has to be made is in America where the packet must say “may cause minor skin irritation”, so why is this? It seems to me that most manufacturers can’t guarantee the composition of their products This is why I like Formula-33, they actually tell you what’s in it and it has some very interesting bacteria such as thiobacillus. Also it has no added surfactants or enzymes. Additives often claim to have added enzymes as if this has some kind of synergistic effect and well maybe it does but you can’t even begin to tell because they don’t tell what enzymes they are and really if you just wanted to introduce any old enzyme into your tank you could do this by spitting in it. I couldn’t begin to compare Formula-33 with another product without knowing what was in it.

I looked for the research mentioned in the link supplied by Hegs. Couldn’t find it published in any peer reviewed biology journal. Winneberger’s name seems quite well known but only in the engineering world. Interbio’s domain name is up for sale at $2,388 which is very cheap if they ever had a good reputation.

Anyway back to the subject of bacterial resistance to antibiotics. It might say “resistant to antibiotics” on the packet but which ones and are they the ones being used? There are very few bacteria that are resistant to all antibiotics, the most famous one being the dreaded MRSA, and none of them are in the septic tank business. Most species of bacteria are resistant to at least one antibiotic. In medical biology in order to avoid the long slow process of specifically identifying a bacterium what they often do is grow a number of cultures from the same sample and then chuck different antibiotics into each dish and see which ones work. A lab report on this will typically just say something like “aureomycin resistant bacteria”.

To sum up: an additive may contain bacteria which may or may not be relevant to those required. The bacteria may be resistant to antibiotics which may or may not be relevant to those being used and the bacteria may or may not get to where they are needed quickly. It’s all a bit of a lottery really which is why I prefer mother nature.

[Jonzjob]

Hi again Motorhead,

The old tank did take the grey water and some of the washing powders that our neighbour used were definately not designed to be sceptic (?) tank friendly.

As a matter of interest, if we have to take antibiotics then as soon as we have finished we almost overdose on natural yogurt, the active kind. Would a few of those chucked down the big white telephone help? This is a serious question...

John.

[Motorhead]

Well it wouldn't do any harm but I doubt it would do much good.

The stuff in yoghourt is mainly Lactobacillus and Acidobacillus. I doubt whether the Acidobacillus would have a low enough ph to survive in a tank but the Lactobacillus should be OK and indeed it is an ingredient of the famous Formula-33.

What will probably be a problem is that yoghourt is quite gloopy stuff. After a tank's been running for a while a kind of "muck hill" builds up, sloping down from the inlet. Fresh jobbies coming in tend to roll away down the hill whereas the additive can get stuck at the top and this would be particularly true the more gloopy it is.

What I'd like to do is build a perspex overground tank and study the movement and separation within it.

That old tank of yours seems to have had an amazing buffering capacity. I'd love to have seen a lab report on it.

[Jonzjob]

Motorhead you have a wonderful way with words! I must admit that a clear overground tank would be quite interesting.

When our neighbour in the Cotswolds had his tank emptied. The 'honey wagon' had the best sign on the back that I've seen for ages. It read " It may be sh!t to you, but it's my bread and butter". I'll put money on the fact that his sandwiches were something to behold ??? Made me laugh though!!

Thanks for the gen mate...

John.

[Motorhead]

I once worked for an outfit that supplied portable toilets for outdoor events. They were called WC In Fields.

Maybe I should get into the fosse business "where there's muck there's brass".

Sixteen years ago I picked up a serious infection at the Friarton sewerage works in Perth. I'd much rather work on septic tanks - at least you can see the people who's sh1t you're handling.

[Jonzjob]

Hi again Motorhead,

A quick question if I may? We moved into our new (to us) house 4 months ago and inherited a VERY heavily scaled loo. We have tried all sorts of fosse friendly substances to no avail. An English plumber (retired) friend said that a good dose or 2 of washing soda crystals would soon sort the problem, BUT will this also screw up our fosse? He hasn't been in France very long and has no experience of the French fosse. The only other solution we can think of is a new sitapon, bit drastic!

Cheers,

John

[Motorhead]

There is a difference between killing bacteria directly as with anti-biotics, chlorine, bleach etc and  killing them by altering their environment.

Soda is very alkaline stuff so it is concievable that it could push the PH up to too high a level. This is going to be most likely in a small tank that has a low ratio of water to solids(ie quite full up) and that is already running a bit on the alkaline side. The bigger the tank and the lower the solids the less this will be an issue.

If you want to be completely assured you might try temporarily disconecting the throne and capping the outlet. Then you can fill it right up to the rim with bleach. The dairy hypoclorite stuff you get in farmer's supply places is guaranteed to shift anything. Of course give it a good rinse with a hose outside before reconnection.

[Eslier]

[quote]Hi again Motorhead, A quick question if I may? We moved into our new (to us) house 4 months ago and inherited a VERY heavily scaled loo. We have tried all sorts of fosse friendly substances to no ava...[/quote]

Why not just go out and buy a new toilet ? You can pick them up very cheaply, in fact if you've tried a number of fosse friendly descalers then you've probably already spent more than the price of a new bog !

[Jonzjob]

The new 'throne' would seem to be the easiest option, especially as we aren't sure that we can get rid of the offending scale. Ours is a 'sortie verticle' which makes it a bit more unusual and a bit more expensive, but as we are on a 'ski' adventure (spending kids inheritance) what the hell, we can't take it with us!!!

Hi ho, hi ho it's off to the 'sheds' we go. Thanks for your info Motorhead, most enlightening...

John.

[Jonzjob]

Motorhead, a quick thought. What would be the reaction of the fosse if 'PH-' were put in at the same time as the loo was flushed? It would be the stuff that's used in swimming pools. Probably a silly question, but?

I suppose that even if it didn't nuke the fosse just by being chucked in then it would be impossible to guess how much to put in and NO there's no way I'm using my pool kit to check the PH level   !!!

John.

[Jhc]

John - you could try doing what I do in our gites - OK it's messy and it would be much easier to get a new loo but we can't afford those every year for gites.  About twice a year I feel the need to get rid of the calcium build up.  I don rubber gloves, scoop out with a disposable plastic mug as much water as I can from the loo basin, soak the rest out with an old towel that I then throw away, then pour in the anti calcaire stuff that just literally disolves the calcium away within several minutes.  Then use another old towel to soak all the liquid gunge out.  Very messy but makes an excellent sparking job. And OK a bit of residue  gunge no doubt gets flushed down the loo at the next flush but I will take the risk that it is so small it will not harm my fosse.

[Motorhead]

Tank PH is a whole subject in itself. I had to dig out some old notes I had from PH crash at a sewerage works that I once had to sort out.

Nearly all tank bacteria need to be within a PH range of 6-9 in order to survive.

Unless you do something naughty like use caustic soda to unblock your wastepipes it should never go above 9 but it can quite easily go below 6.Tanks naturally tend to move towards the acidic.

 Most of the bacteria produce acid as part of their normal anaerobic respiration. This is mainly lactic and proprionic acids which are quite weak but can build up to a critical level if the tank is not being used and there is no exchange between new water coming in and the old going out. This is called fermentation and is pretty much the same thing that happens when making silage or saurkraut . If the tank is being used but there is still bacterial acidity the culprit is almost certainly the genus Thiobacillus. Thiobacillus are absolutely amazing wee beasties. They live around the vent pipe where they feed on methane gas, which is good, but they excrete sulphuric acid, which is bad. In a concrete tank the sulphuric acid tends to soak into the concrete (where it can ultimateley cause corrosion) but in a plastic tank it can drip down the sides and into the water.

 

Another cause of PH problems is the water supply. I was once involved in a case where the water was naturally PH5 and the water board traditionally added lime to stop it corroding the old cast iron pipes. Then one day they finished replacing all the mains with these new hi-tech super-duper non corroding pipes and thought “hey we don’t have to lime the water any more”. Now if they’d told this to the to the sewer bods, who theoretically worked for the same organization, they wouldn’t have done it. But then that’s engineers for you.

 

Could the same thing happen in France? I hope not but it really depends on where you are. If  you’re in a hard water area then no chance but I stay in an area where the geology is non calciferous but the water comes out the tap at PH9 so I’m damn sure the water company is adding lime. I can’t trust them to suddenly stop doing it and tell me about it so I’ll have to keep my eye out for supply pipe renewals.

 

It’s probably a good thing to check your tank PH every month or so. The easiest way of doing this is to dangle a test strip in on a length of string with a small fishing weight attached. If the tank is heading towards being too acidic forget about swimming pool type PH adjusters. They are designed to work with dead rather than live water and they are just not robust enough plus you would have to measure the tank’s liquid content to get the dosage right. The best thing is a stuff called tufa rock which is available very cheaply from any decent pet shop. This is a form of magnesian limestone which releases alkalinity into the water but only in response to being dissolved by acid so it is environmentally self limiting and therefore will never push the PH up too high.

 

You can put a lump of tufa rock in a mesh bag and suspend it in the tank but if the acidity is coming from the water supply it would be better in the grease trap if you have one plus a small lump in the toilet cistern

[P]

Phew - did not realise that you needed to get out ones chemistry set each time one went.

Very interesting and, Motorhead, very informative.

Going back to item 2 of your original reply, could that be taken as - if someone is on antibiotics then everyone who is not needs to go as often as possible - are there any good Indian restaurants in France?