David M Posted October 22, 2005 Share Posted October 22, 2005 Hi allThis is going lo be a bit long, but I’m looking for some very specific advice \ information about electrical domestic wiring structure, specifically about the structure of a circuit. I’m unclear about what I’ve read on the subject, and am confused by apparent contradictions in the example schema & wiring diagrams in various books and manuals. The wiring in my house seems to date from the last renovation (1870)! It needs a complete new installation, which I’d like to do in accordance with the current NF standard (last revised 6/2004, I think). I understand most of it from the Promotolec NFC15-100 “For Dummies” edition, and useful websites such as Hager and Legrand. I have previously wired houses with and without ring mains in other countries. I will appoint an electrician to complete and test, I will buy fittings locally, but a) I will want to plan the schema myself (amending it according to advice from a local electrician)b) I will want to do all of the wire routing (gaine installation (flexible conduit)) myself, So here is the nub. Have I understood the following correctly? 1) It is a single phase installation. After the EDF disjoncteur (500mA circuit breaker), the installation will be protected by a parafoudre (lightning protector) unit, as well as terre-prise (earth conductor).2) In the consumer unit (tableau electrique/coffret) there will be one (or more) 30mA disjoncteur différential, protecting a number of interrupteur (the total number of which will be limited by the number of locations on the bar, but actually reflecting the organisation of my schema).3) Each interrupteur protects a single circuit4) Each circuit is a single branch of 3 wires (phase, neutral, earth, each of 1.5, 2.5, 4, or 6mm2 section). It must NOT form a ring. (Some French brico books definitely show a ring)5) If it’s for prise confort (power sockets). It may supply 5 sockets if it’s 1.5 mm2 wire and 8 sockets if it is 2.5mm2 wire, (with a 16 A and 20 A interrupteur, respectively). 6) A twin socket may be counted as a single socket. 7) Now I am very unclear about this next bit: I may NOT connect the sockets, in series as I would on a UK ring main (unless it’s a pre 1990s installation); but must form a branch in the circuit to supply each individual prise (socket). In other words the gaine carrying the wires from the consumer unit must arrive at a junction box (boîte de derivation). From this box will run one gaine to a pattress (boîte d’encastrement) to hold the prise murale (socket) and a second gaine will hold the wires to continue the circuit on to the next junction box and socket and so on until I reach the maximum number of sockets allowed on the circuit (or to at least as many as I require). Is this correct? That’s it. Any guidance would be welcome.David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Trollope Posted October 23, 2005 Share Posted October 23, 2005 [quote]Hi all This is going lo be a bit long, but I’m looking for some very specific advice \ information about electrical domestic wiring structure, specifically about the structure of a circuit. I’...[/quote]Here goes;1) It is a single phase installation. After the EDF disjoncteur (500mA circuit breaker), the installation will be protected by a parafoudre (lightning protector) unit, as well as terre-prise (earth conductor).The (compulsorary) installation of a parafoudre depends upon your area. Installing one where it is not compulsorary isn't prohibited. 2) In the consumer unit (tableau electrique/coffret) there will be one (or more) 30mA disjoncteur différential, protecting a number of interrupteur (the total number of which will be limited by the number of locations on the bar, but actually reflecting the organisation of my schema).That is correct 3) Each interrupteur protects a single circuitBroadly speaking, yes, although there is nothing stopping you connecting (eg.) 2 lighting feeds to a single ID, provided you don't exceed the maximum number of fittings for the circuit. 4) Each circuit is a single branch of 3 wires (phase, neutral, earth, each of 1.5, 2.5, 4, or 6mm2 section). It must NOT form a ring. (Some French brico books definitely show a ring)Correct, although some recommend the "ringing" of the earth (only) for added safety. Creation of a power ring is not allowed. More sharing options... Punch Posted October 23, 2005 Share Posted October 23, 2005 3) Each interrupteur protects a single circuitBroadly speaking, yes, although there is nothing stopping you connecting (eg.) 2 lighting feeds to a single ID, provided you don't exceed the maximum number of fittings for the circuit. Not quite I'm afraid Nick. There should ever only be one set of wires (ie; phase and neutral) leaving an individual Disjoncteur, or fuse. ) If it’s for prise confort (power sockets). It may supply 5 sockets if it’s 1.5 mm2 wire and 8 sockets if it is 2.5mm2 wire, (with a 16 A and 20 A interrupteur, respectively). Again, yes, although I would not bother with 1.5mm wire for power and limit the number of sockets on 2.5mm to 6. Doubles count as singles, so you can still have 12 sockets. I would disagree here. In practise, this new regulation using 1.5 mm , can be a very a very useful one if the correct fuse/disjoncteur size is adhered to. A recent installation we carride out had seperate feeds to electric heaters in the bedrooms and they wanted sockets for bedside lamps and telephone points etc. By running a 1.5mm circuit for a few sockets in a bedroom , enabled us to use smaller gaine (16mm ) which just passed between some beams, and was easier to conceal in wall chasing. Anyone who has connected up French sockets using 2.5mm cables will appreciate it is much easier using 1.5mm cable! For your last question no.7. Just to clarify. Lighting circuits can be daisy chained but only via the junction box mounted in the ceiling, often a DCL type connection box, and not at the light fitting itself . There is nothing to stop you connecting the sockets up via junction boxes, but this is not usual practice. sockets are usually looped directly. Any junctiion box for any circuit in France must be always easily accesible and enclosed in an appropriate NF type box. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... La Guerriere Posted October 23, 2005 Share Posted October 23, 2005 A couple more points:If you have an existing system, be it ever so crumbly, with an existing connection to the EDF supply you can renovate everything from the output side of the EDF disjoncteur bit by bit. If you don't have an existing supply the whole new installation has to be inspected by CONSUEL before EDF come along and hook you up. With an old system, you will probably need to put in a new earth connection, and each circuit has to have its own earth wire. Unlike the "split load" UK type system all circuits including lights have to be protected by a RCD (disjoncteur differential), and you will find that you need more circuits than for a similar UK house. Convector heaters go on separate circuits from the normal power outlets, and washing machine and dishwodger require dedicated circuits.As noted previously, only one set of connections allowed on each MCB. Connections oddly enough can be made in trunking as long as it is accessible.Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Nick Trollope Posted October 23, 2005 Share Posted October 23, 2005 Not quite I'm afraid Nick. There should ever only be one set of wires (ie; phase and neutral) leaving an individual Disjoncteur, or fuse.That's interesting, as the bloke who "taught" me, said it was OK as it was not specifically prohibited. Are we talking convention or regulation here (I am quite willing to believe you, however!).Take your point about 1.5mm power circuits - just never seen the need (yet). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... VJ Posted October 23, 2005 Share Posted October 23, 2005 3) Each interrupteur protects a single circuitBroadly speaking, yes, although there is nothing stopping you connecting (eg.) 2 lighting feeds to a single ID, provided you don't exceed the maximum number of fittings for the circuit. Not quite I'm afraid Nick. There should ever only be one set of wires (ie; phase and neutral) leaving an individual Disjoncteur, or fuse. Question Are we talking two circuits or just two feeds to one circuit so in fact you are using the Board as a joint box. For example one gain may be going out one way and another the other, but the cables all on the same circuit, you could go a matter of mm to a joint box and parallel the feed from there (assuming of course we are talking as one circuit ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Punch Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 Nick and VJ; I may be wrong, but I am sure I seem to remember seeing this regulation about only one set of wires leaving a disjoncteur or fuse. I've had a brief look through my regs but have yet to find it, so it could have been a Promotolec recommendation. I know tghat it definetely applies to the outgoing consumers terminals on the EDF disjonteur differentielle, where only one set of wires are allowed. In practise, when I have brought two feeds on the same circuit back to the tableau electrique, I always make any connections in the back of the fuseboard itself rather than in the disjoncteur terminals so that it is clear what wires are the primary feeds leaving the duisjonteur. I alwys think it is bad practise when I see bunches of lives or neutrals in the same disjonteur, especially sometimes when there maybe three neutrals in one side and two lives inn the other; you never know if someone has borrowed a neutral.I have recently been to a Promotelec meeting with other French sparkies and am due to go to a Consuel soiree soon so will try to find out for good.Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... David M Posted October 24, 2005 Author Share Posted October 24, 2005 Excellent guys… thank you for the response. They are exactly what I was looking for. So ... 1) Parafoudre. Dept 64, aerial cable supply, bright blue skies at night. If it’s not compulsory for us, it should be.2) Each interrupteur protects a single circuit: I’d do it as good practice4) Ring Circuit: No rings! Undertood, but I can daisy-chain my sockets. I can put 8 (single or double) prise murale on a single 2.55mm2/20Amp circuit, but good practice would be to limit it to 6. Am I going to have difficulty putting 2 x 2.5mm2 wires into the terminals in a prise mural? Am I going to swear a lot? … I don’t normally:5) 1.5mm2 circuits. Yes I take all points. Thank you. I see why (appropriately protected) 1.5mm2 would be offered by the Norme. No daisy chaining of lights: The NF manual I have, definitely shows NO chaining of lights at the ceiling rose (boite plafond). (Though I have not actually looked at a DCL to see if it is actually offering branchement) Where the manual does show a daisy-chain by branchement, it shows it as a circuit to a second bulb, activated by the same interrupteur (switch) as the first. In other words you can “chain” lights as for example from a telerupteur It seems to be that in the preferred schema the lights is to deliver the feed first to the interrupteur, and then to the light fitting, and that the feed goes on from interrupteur to interrupteur not from DCL to DCL. I realize this is not the manner of a house in the UK where BS ceiling rose are designed with built in terminal posts to support the application of a ring running from rose to rose. But my home in Ireland uses UK style hardware (switches and roses) but the ring, runs from switch to switch, and deploys loose terminal blocks to make the necessary connections not otherwise supported by the UK hardware. (it also makes a very sloppy arrangement at the ceiling rose, which does not have a pattress or a boite). So this is an arrangement with which I am familiar.So I think I’ll work that way, unless someone tells me I’m wrong. I’ll run the gaine from the coffret to a point above (or below) the first interrupteur, then I’ll form a branch to that from the main feed. The alternative (non-Forme); of daisy chaining interrupteur, would obviously force an undesirable increase in gaine size from interrupteur to boite de branchement in the main feed as wires fed, down it and back up again to maintain the circuit. And I see no advantages in the alternative of running the feed via the DCL.Other stuff: Rather than work piecemeal. I decided to remove most of the existing installation and install temporary cable, with the intention of creating a complete new wiring installation over the next 6 months. Then we’ll just switch the EDF branchement over to the new coffret. Question then: Although I understand I do not need to do this, is it a hassle to get a new certification for the property? How would I go about it.? And one other loose question. If any of you feel you have the time to answer… some time ….It will be appreciated…It’s really about esthetics, because I don’t now what products are available on the market, or the regs that govern their installation…. Electrification of the Pyrenees means I’ll get to make a tidy job of the whole installation around the EDF bran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... La Guerriere Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 I would further suggest:a) Get yourself a copy of "L'installation electrique" by Gallauziaux and Fedullo (Edition Eyrolles: they have a website). It's a great book with lots of excellent diagrams schematics hints'n'tips etc etc.b) Try and avoid a complete strip out and replacement requiring CONSUEL approval if you can. If you have the existing supply, work around that. There appears to be nothing to stop you replacing everything downwind of the EDF disjoncteur as a "mise en securite"c) If you do this, it makes the requirements for the tableau (and the GTL or gaine technique de logement) a lot easier to deal with, and you don't get into arguments about telephone and television points etc.d) The tableau can be enclosed in a cupboard, but it must be positioned so that nothing can be stacked in front of it, and the cupboard should be ventilated. Louvre door seems to be the ideal solution.Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... VJ Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 (I realize this is not the manner of a house in the UK where BS ceiling rose are designed with built in terminal posts to support the application of a ring running from rose to rose. But my home in Ireland uses UK style hardware (switches and roses) but the ring, runs from switch to switch, and deploys loose terminal blocks to make the necessary connections not otherwise supported by the UK hardware. (it also makes a very sloppy arrangement at the ceiling rose, which does not have a pattress or a boite). So this is an arrangement with which I am familiar.)David the LOOP IN system which you describe for the UK is just one system,and it is not used in France You could however install a Joint Box system where the joint boxes are all accessable and here you would take line feeds to the switch and then to the light(no feed at the light untill the switch is on.)If one was installing a Conduit system in the UK the wiring of it would be exactly the same as the French system for lights.All line looped from switch to switch, switch wires to the lights and neutrals looped light to light.Reference the socket connections, Yes they are very tight so we buy terminal crimps to make it easier, but then we use multicore 2.5mm as it is easier to pull in and IMO easier to work with.Try to buy the gain with smooth bore internal as it is easier to push the draw wire into and buy the draw wire with wheel on the end so it glides through easier.Well I hope these ideas help you and I am sure there will be others to give you more info.VJ and team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... 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Punch Posted October 23, 2005 Share Posted October 23, 2005 3) Each interrupteur protects a single circuitBroadly speaking, yes, although there is nothing stopping you connecting (eg.) 2 lighting feeds to a single ID, provided you don't exceed the maximum number of fittings for the circuit. Not quite I'm afraid Nick. There should ever only be one set of wires (ie; phase and neutral) leaving an individual Disjoncteur, or fuse. ) If it’s for prise confort (power sockets). It may supply 5 sockets if it’s 1.5 mm2 wire and 8 sockets if it is 2.5mm2 wire, (with a 16 A and 20 A interrupteur, respectively). Again, yes, although I would not bother with 1.5mm wire for power and limit the number of sockets on 2.5mm to 6. Doubles count as singles, so you can still have 12 sockets. I would disagree here. In practise, this new regulation using 1.5 mm , can be a very a very useful one if the correct fuse/disjoncteur size is adhered to. A recent installation we carride out had seperate feeds to electric heaters in the bedrooms and they wanted sockets for bedside lamps and telephone points etc. By running a 1.5mm circuit for a few sockets in a bedroom , enabled us to use smaller gaine (16mm ) which just passed between some beams, and was easier to conceal in wall chasing. Anyone who has connected up French sockets using 2.5mm cables will appreciate it is much easier using 1.5mm cable! For your last question no.7. Just to clarify. Lighting circuits can be daisy chained but only via the junction box mounted in the ceiling, often a DCL type connection box, and not at the light fitting itself . There is nothing to stop you connecting the sockets up via junction boxes, but this is not usual practice. sockets are usually looped directly. Any junctiion box for any circuit in France must be always easily accesible and enclosed in an appropriate NF type box. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Guerriere Posted October 23, 2005 Share Posted October 23, 2005 A couple more points:If you have an existing system, be it ever so crumbly, with an existing connection to the EDF supply you can renovate everything from the output side of the EDF disjoncteur bit by bit. If you don't have an existing supply the whole new installation has to be inspected by CONSUEL before EDF come along and hook you up. With an old system, you will probably need to put in a new earth connection, and each circuit has to have its own earth wire. Unlike the "split load" UK type system all circuits including lights have to be protected by a RCD (disjoncteur differential), and you will find that you need more circuits than for a similar UK house. Convector heaters go on separate circuits from the normal power outlets, and washing machine and dishwodger require dedicated circuits.As noted previously, only one set of connections allowed on each MCB. Connections oddly enough can be made in trunking as long as it is accessible.Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Trollope Posted October 23, 2005 Share Posted October 23, 2005 Not quite I'm afraid Nick. There should ever only be one set of wires (ie; phase and neutral) leaving an individual Disjoncteur, or fuse.That's interesting, as the bloke who "taught" me, said it was OK as it was not specifically prohibited. Are we talking convention or regulation here (I am quite willing to believe you, however!).Take your point about 1.5mm power circuits - just never seen the need (yet). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VJ Posted October 23, 2005 Share Posted October 23, 2005 3) Each interrupteur protects a single circuitBroadly speaking, yes, although there is nothing stopping you connecting (eg.) 2 lighting feeds to a single ID, provided you don't exceed the maximum number of fittings for the circuit. Not quite I'm afraid Nick. There should ever only be one set of wires (ie; phase and neutral) leaving an individual Disjoncteur, or fuse. Question Are we talking two circuits or just two feeds to one circuit so in fact you are using the Board as a joint box. For example one gain may be going out one way and another the other, but the cables all on the same circuit, you could go a matter of mm to a joint box and parallel the feed from there (assuming of course we are talking as one circuit ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 Nick and VJ; I may be wrong, but I am sure I seem to remember seeing this regulation about only one set of wires leaving a disjoncteur or fuse. I've had a brief look through my regs but have yet to find it, so it could have been a Promotolec recommendation. I know tghat it definetely applies to the outgoing consumers terminals on the EDF disjonteur differentielle, where only one set of wires are allowed. In practise, when I have brought two feeds on the same circuit back to the tableau electrique, I always make any connections in the back of the fuseboard itself rather than in the disjoncteur terminals so that it is clear what wires are the primary feeds leaving the duisjonteur. I alwys think it is bad practise when I see bunches of lives or neutrals in the same disjonteur, especially sometimes when there maybe three neutrals in one side and two lives inn the other; you never know if someone has borrowed a neutral.I have recently been to a Promotelec meeting with other French sparkies and am due to go to a Consuel soiree soon so will try to find out for good.Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David M Posted October 24, 2005 Author Share Posted October 24, 2005 Excellent guys… thank you for the response. They are exactly what I was looking for. So ... 1) Parafoudre. Dept 64, aerial cable supply, bright blue skies at night. If it’s not compulsory for us, it should be.2) Each interrupteur protects a single circuit: I’d do it as good practice4) Ring Circuit: No rings! Undertood, but I can daisy-chain my sockets. I can put 8 (single or double) prise murale on a single 2.55mm2/20Amp circuit, but good practice would be to limit it to 6. Am I going to have difficulty putting 2 x 2.5mm2 wires into the terminals in a prise mural? Am I going to swear a lot? … I don’t normally:5) 1.5mm2 circuits. Yes I take all points. Thank you. I see why (appropriately protected) 1.5mm2 would be offered by the Norme. No daisy chaining of lights: The NF manual I have, definitely shows NO chaining of lights at the ceiling rose (boite plafond). (Though I have not actually looked at a DCL to see if it is actually offering branchement) Where the manual does show a daisy-chain by branchement, it shows it as a circuit to a second bulb, activated by the same interrupteur (switch) as the first. In other words you can “chain” lights as for example from a telerupteur It seems to be that in the preferred schema the lights is to deliver the feed first to the interrupteur, and then to the light fitting, and that the feed goes on from interrupteur to interrupteur not from DCL to DCL. I realize this is not the manner of a house in the UK where BS ceiling rose are designed with built in terminal posts to support the application of a ring running from rose to rose. But my home in Ireland uses UK style hardware (switches and roses) but the ring, runs from switch to switch, and deploys loose terminal blocks to make the necessary connections not otherwise supported by the UK hardware. (it also makes a very sloppy arrangement at the ceiling rose, which does not have a pattress or a boite). So this is an arrangement with which I am familiar.So I think I’ll work that way, unless someone tells me I’m wrong. I’ll run the gaine from the coffret to a point above (or below) the first interrupteur, then I’ll form a branch to that from the main feed. The alternative (non-Forme); of daisy chaining interrupteur, would obviously force an undesirable increase in gaine size from interrupteur to boite de branchement in the main feed as wires fed, down it and back up again to maintain the circuit. And I see no advantages in the alternative of running the feed via the DCL.Other stuff: Rather than work piecemeal. I decided to remove most of the existing installation and install temporary cable, with the intention of creating a complete new wiring installation over the next 6 months. Then we’ll just switch the EDF branchement over to the new coffret. Question then: Although I understand I do not need to do this, is it a hassle to get a new certification for the property? How would I go about it.? And one other loose question. If any of you feel you have the time to answer… some time ….It will be appreciated…It’s really about esthetics, because I don’t now what products are available on the market, or the regs that govern their installation…. Electrification of the Pyrenees means I’ll get to make a tidy job of the whole installation around the EDF bran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Guerriere Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 I would further suggest:a) Get yourself a copy of "L'installation electrique" by Gallauziaux and Fedullo (Edition Eyrolles: they have a website). It's a great book with lots of excellent diagrams schematics hints'n'tips etc etc.b) Try and avoid a complete strip out and replacement requiring CONSUEL approval if you can. If you have the existing supply, work around that. There appears to be nothing to stop you replacing everything downwind of the EDF disjoncteur as a "mise en securite"c) If you do this, it makes the requirements for the tableau (and the GTL or gaine technique de logement) a lot easier to deal with, and you don't get into arguments about telephone and television points etc.d) The tableau can be enclosed in a cupboard, but it must be positioned so that nothing can be stacked in front of it, and the cupboard should be ventilated. Louvre door seems to be the ideal solution.Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VJ Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 (I realize this is not the manner of a house in the UK where BS ceiling rose are designed with built in terminal posts to support the application of a ring running from rose to rose. But my home in Ireland uses UK style hardware (switches and roses) but the ring, runs from switch to switch, and deploys loose terminal blocks to make the necessary connections not otherwise supported by the UK hardware. (it also makes a very sloppy arrangement at the ceiling rose, which does not have a pattress or a boite). So this is an arrangement with which I am familiar.)David the LOOP IN system which you describe for the UK is just one system,and it is not used in France You could however install a Joint Box system where the joint boxes are all accessable and here you would take line feeds to the switch and then to the light(no feed at the light untill the switch is on.)If one was installing a Conduit system in the UK the wiring of it would be exactly the same as the French system for lights.All line looped from switch to switch, switch wires to the lights and neutrals looped light to light.Reference the socket connections, Yes they are very tight so we buy terminal crimps to make it easier, but then we use multicore 2.5mm as it is easier to pull in and IMO easier to work with.Try to buy the gain with smooth bore internal as it is easier to push the draw wire into and buy the draw wire with wheel on the end so it glides through easier.Well I hope these ideas help you and I am sure there will be others to give you more info.VJ and team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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