170 M2 limit SHOB / SHON

[Chancer]

I found the link to a conseil pdf file which was quite enlightening and have now calculated my SHOB & SHON's.

I am not quite sure how to phrase this question so I will start by what I think that I understand and allow others to correct or confirm then ask my question.

To construct a dwelling of over 170M2 (SHOB or SHON?) the plans need to have been drawn or signed off by an architect.

To extend a dwelling taking it above the 170M2 the same applies

To convert previously non habitable space (ie grenier or cave without windows) taking the total above 170M2 the same applies.

An area is deemed as habitable even if it is not used as such if it has more than 1.8M headroom and a window, in my case the grenier which is open (no trussed rafters), has a staircase and 3 old style Lucarne roof windows I believe to be classed as habitable whereas the cave which just has 2 ventilation openings is not.

According to my calcs my SHON is around 250M2 but I would like to know if this is written anywhere, I cannot find any reference to it on the Notaires paperwork or the taxes foncieres bills.

Now for the question:

Given that my property is already (by my calcs) above the 170M2 limit which includes the grenier (if I have understood the regs) already being classed as habitable, do I need architects drawings to fit it out to make it "properly" habitable?

I realise that I should make a declaration to Les Impots for the increase of confort, toilet shower etc.

Editted: the conversion does not involve extending the property or changing the roof windows etc so I dont think a permis de construire or the new equivalent of the Declaration de travaux will be needed.

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

The "architect for more than 170 m2" rule relates to applications for a permis de construire. If you don't need a P de C then you don't need an architect.

Might be worth checking at the mairie if your reasoning is right -- it sounds sensible to me, so I'd be worried.[Www]

[Chancer]

Thanks Albert, that makes sense and as I will not be doing anything requiring a PDC then I have no worries for the moment.

Still loosely related to the title, I went to the Hôtel des Impôts today to discuss the forms for taxes foncieres that they sent me regarding the above, they measure habitable areas differently again being simply the area within the walls (including cages d'escaliers).

I was a bit peeved to find that for four years I have been paying commercial charges for the ground floor (it was a bar) and can only reclaim two of them but only have myself to blame for accepting what other people had advised me rather than asking the horses mouth.

At the start my language skills held me back from dealing with these things, I often wonder how much not speaking the language truly costs people.

I reckon though that any savings that I make may be swallowed up by the piéeces habitables that had never been declared by the previous owner.

Anyway my question for tonight: What costs more for taxes foncieres, an extra bedroom or an extra bathroom?

At the moment I have some flexibility in what I declare an old bathroom as, it is gutted like the rest of the main dwelling (I have a new bathroom in the converted outbuildings that I live in) the toilet and shower are in position but without any plumbing, all copper pipes removed and also the waste and outside soilpipe. So I can very easily remove them and declare it as a chambre or autres piéces habitables.