"ceinture beton" mur de parpaing

[devilsadvocate]

I hope someone can explain what this is.

Literally translated it is a "concrete belt". I can see a 10cm thick layer of concrete, just above eye-level, all the way round a two-storey building shell (currently a garage with void above) built from "parpaing". I'm assuming this belt is some sort of reinforcement layer? It's not at a particularly convenient height (just about 2 metres) but the plan is to convert this building into 2 habitable rooms, one on the gorund level and one above. By the time I've added a concrete floor (currently just earth/rubble) the top of the doors and windows which I 'd like to insert would be above this belt. Thus it would mean cutting through this concrete layer. [blink]

Is this permissable/advisable/strictly not allowed?

DA

[Chancer]

Unless you are compelled to have an architect produce your plans no-one is going to stop you doing whatever you choose to do.

On a practical level the ceinture à beton will almost certainly have reinforcing rods running through it, if you section it to make doorways etc you will remove most of the rigidity that it imparts to the structure of the building.

[tonyv]

I was thinking about doing something similar, but had a chat with a tame builder first. The Ceinture Beton is a form of earthquake protection, and is a requirement in certain areas.

Cut it, take it out, as you choose; nobody, except yourself, will be any the wiser. I can't imagine earthquakes are very common in poitou charante, but if there is one, and the wall collapses, your insurers will walk away laughing :(

[devilsadvocate]

Thanks.

So if I want to cut through it but still maintain some degree of the security, is there a solution? Can the "ceinture" go up and over the windows or tie into the lintels?

TonyV: did you go ahead with your project? Did you find a solution?

Very frustrating to find this now, and I definitely want doors and windows!!

DA

[tonyv]

[quote user="devilsadvocate"]

TonyV: did you go ahead with your project? Did you find a solution?

[/quote]

Well, my project was substantially different to yours, but no, I didn't cut the ceinture. I was able to work around the embuggerance by changing my plans. I did ask the builder whether there was any way round it, but was answered with a barrage of French, which I took to mean "no".

I have heard of people jacking up the whole top floor, beams and all, using specialist equipment, which I assume is a somewhat bigger job than you'd anticipated.

Can you not lower the floor, before concreting it over?

[devilsadvocate]

The exisiting bare earth/rubble floor is lower than the level in the main house, and there is a soil pipe buried below, so the floor needs a minimum of 16cms total thickness, but this takes the height of a door at least 20cms above the "ceinture". It's at times like this that you want to ask the person who built it... "why put the ceinture there?" !!! They never had a car in there either!

I can't alter the plans as the ceinture goes around the three exterior walls and I need a door (and a window) somewhere. The existing garage door, which we want to block up, opens onto the road so I can't use that wall and anyway we want the door at the back.

It looks as though I'm going to have to get some "experts" in and take a consensus of opinion. [8-)]

DA

[LesFlamands]

How much wall is there above the 'ceinture' befor the eave? does the beam act as the lintel above the existing garage door?

There may be a second ring beam at eaves height sometimes using 'chainage' so not always obvious. It sounds to me that this belt you have at 2m is just to adjust height/level walls and may not have any steel in it.

If it is structural then when you cut through it to make your openings you can cast inverted U shaped lintels to tie in the cut ends of the beam.

[devilsadvocate]

Charles

I can't see another ceinture. I'm not sure I understand the "U-shaped lintels" bit; a picture gives a better idea, so....

(you can see the concrete layer immediately above the two small windows. The top of the windows is less than 2 metres from the ground inside.

[IMG]http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt200/nevjames/garage.jpg[/IMG]

 

[pachapapa]

chainage horizontal.

[devilsadvocate]

[quote user="pachapapa"]chainage horizontal.[/quote]

Eh? Is that what the concrete layer is called? I was originally told it was a "ceinture". Are they the same thing? If so, why your reply?

What I really want to know is can I do anything about it!

DA

[pachapapa]

ceinture just means it goes all round a building; chainage refers to the deformed steel reinforcing; each floor in a seismic area will have chainage horizontal at an elevation immediately below each floor level and a final continuous reinforced chainage horizontal at an elevation immediately below the roof timbers. All that complemented by chainage vertical and all tied together. the elevation of your horizontal chainage immediately above or perhaps incorporated into the lintels of the small windows suggests to me that it was for a "sous sol" area with a single story above. The chainage horizontal in such a case would serve both the lintels and the floor supports for the rez de chauséee.

[broy]

I think its an edge beam in english although most folks probably say ring beam. Dunno if that helps.

I don't quite get why you can't dig the floor down.

Casting an inverted u shaped lintel sounds like a good plan with a bit of clever tieing in.

Expose the reinforcement and bend it upwards adding a bit more into the top span.

Add a tie rod for belts n braces.

If the floor joists are resting on it, downs the only way to go.

[devilsadvocate]

Pachapapa

If you had explained in the first place instead of just giving me 2 (to me) meaningless words we'd have saved another day, but thanks anyway.

Broy

That sounds like a possibility, and thank you for explaining it clearly.

I can't go any further down in the floor as a waste pipe from the house goes through there to the mains; I have to go on top of that. Also there would be a sizeable step somewhere in the join between the old and new rooms because the existing floor level in the house is higher; it would be preferable to have a level floor through the new doorway from the house.

I'm going to get a couple more builders in to have a look at it and I'll go with the one who gives the best explanation and practical solution. One has already suggested just cutting through the layer... and no further remedial treatment. Goes to show how you can get caught out.

Thank you all for your responses.

DA

[pachapapa]

Pachapapa

If you had explained in the first place instead of just giving me 2 (to me) meaningless words we'd have saved another day, but thanks anyway.

Perhaps meaningless to you but widely used in MASONIC circles in france![:D] http://www.google.fr/search?hl=fr&rls=com.microsoft%3Afr%3AIE-Address&q=chainage+horizontal&btnG=Rechercher&meta=&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai==

CHAINAGE Ceinturage d'un bâtiment à chaque niveau d'étage destiné à éviter l'écartement des murs (chaînage horizontal) par des poutres en béton armé (bâtiment moderne).
Terme utilisé également pour les armatures de poteaux (chaînage vertical).

May I add to the excellent definition by noting that "chainage" can also occur in an inclined variety as in the slopes of "pignons".[:)]

[devilsadvocate]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

Perhaps meaningless to you but widely used in MASONIC circles in france![:D] [/quote]

[:D][:D][:D]

[littlemouse]

The chainage horizontal is usually incorporated at floor level and not below the level of the floor,there will be an arase just below the poutrelles to level the wall tops.the costs of having two ceintures( yes you can use the word ceinture)would be prohibitive.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="littlemouse"]The chainage horizontal is usually incorporated at floor level and not below the level of the floor,there will be an arase just below the poutrelles to level the wall tops.the costs of having two ceintures( yes you can use the word ceinture)would be prohibitive.
[/quote]

I presumed that the OP lived in a Zone 1a seismic area but he may in fact live in a Zone 0 or maybe a Zone 1b or even perhaps in the south in a Zone II; the only thing I am sure is that he doesn't live in a Zone III. Whilst the "poutrelles" and the "U" block containing the chainage are placed at the same elevation, the floor level is at the same level as the arase levelling off the chainage horizontal before continuing the construction of the walls. It would be interesting for the relevant reference to the DTU recommending single chainage.

http://www.batirama.com/suites-articles/suites-articles/S1-De-nouvelles-exigences-pour-les-chainages-de-maconnerie.html

[littlemouse]

Having read the article that you highlighted,there is an increase in the diametre and/or number of bars in the chainage not an additional chainage.It has, in my experience, always been good practice to finish the tops of the walls with a "ceinture beton armé" and have an incorporated " poteau" in the middle a gable,living in an area with high winds leads to this practice.

Whilst the "poutrelles" and the "U" block containing the chainage are

placed at the same elevation, the floor level is at the same level as

the arase levelling off the chainage horizontal before continuing the

construction of the walls. I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

To the orginal poster,if you cut your chainage to allow extra height for your windows and doors,you really need to continue the chainage vertically  into the lintel, so that the ceinture remains intact.Its easier to do then explain

[pachapapa]

 En général, la hauteur d’un chaînage de façade est celle du plancher qui lui est associée.

An excerpt from the article indicating the elevational relation between "solivage" and "chainage", the facade is mentioned as it is normal to install the solives across the shortest span.

**** there is an increase in the diametre and/or number of bars in the chainage not an additional chainage.**** Quite correct and Zone III Guadeloupe and Martinique take the prize on this score; as to " not an additional chainage" you are correct again the chainage requirements are the same for all zones.

You mention living in an area of high wind. I suggest that problems of "contreventement" may not be solved by seismicity provisions, at least that has been my experience whilst working for the Fluor Corporation on mining and construction projects at an elevation of + 4000 metres in the Andes. 

[devilsadvocate]

Littlemouse, I think this is what Broy was explaining earlier, at least that's how I interpreted it. I'll mention all of this to the next builder when he comes to look at it.

Thanks

DA