Electrical socket question

[Dave_D]

Hi folks.  Thinking about putting a dishwasher into the place in Brittany.  There's a socket under the sink which is a NF C 61-315 standard French single phase socket which if my research is correct, is a higher rated socket for cookers etc.

My question is, is a dishwasher likely to have this plug on it or the standard one and is there a way to plug a standard device into this socket? eg can you cut the standard off and put one of these on or get an adaptor.

Thanks

Dave

[Quillan]

Just like most other French appliances it will come with a normal French plug on it. All you need to do is find the circuit breaker for the socket, turn it off, and replace the outlet with a standard one.

[Loiseau]

Simpler still....

My recent replacement dishwasher and washing machine came with the standard plug rather than the bigger one that their predecessors had had. Therefore they were not going to fit Into the bigger sockets that were in place.

The installer said On no account to cut off the plug to replace it with the larger one (would invalidate guarantee), but to buy a step-down adapter which would enable new, smaller plug to go into old, larger socket.

A quick trip to my local Weldom and a rummage through the electrical bits, and that was sorted.

Angela

[Théière]

[quote user="Loiseau"]Simpler still....

My recent replacement dishwasher and washing machine came with the standard plug rather than the bigger one that their predecessors had had. Therefore they were not going to fit Into the bigger sockets that were in place.

The installer said On no account to cut off the plug to replace it with the larger one (would invalidate guarantee), but to buy a step-down adapter which would enable new, smaller plug to go into old, larger socket.

A quick trip to my local Weldom and a rummage through the electrical bits, and that was sorted.

Angela[/quote]

Should be re titled "More dangerous still" [:)]

As Quillan said you must down rate the fuse at the board or breaker if fitted.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Théière"][quote user="Loiseau"]Simpler still.... My recent replacement dishwasher and washing machine came with the standard plug rather than the bigger one that their predecessors had had. Therefore they were not going to fit Into the bigger sockets that were in place. The installer said On no account to cut off the plug to replace it with the larger one (would invalidate guarantee), but to buy a step-down adapter which would enable new, smaller plug to go into old, larger socket. A quick trip to my local Weldom and a rummage through the electrical bits, and that was sorted. Angela[/quote]

Should be re titled "More dangerous still" [:)]
As Quillan said you must down rate the fuse at the board or breaker if fitted.
[/quote]

 

Generally I don't bother saying anything more now because I am always wrong. Yes you should change the socket and downgrade the breaker rather than use one of these adapters (which is why you have to search for them in shops) which will probably be a 20A one and needs to be 16A. The only thing we have ever had without a plug is our big cooker which had to be hard wired in to a 20A breaker. You can buy a breaker from most Brico 'sheds' and if you feel you don't want to touch the consumer unit get an electrician in to do it for you, give him the breaker and it should not cost you much to change it as it only takes about 5 minutes or less even. Have a look first before you buy so the one you buy looks the same. Even better if it is a branded one try to buy the same brand. The cheap ones sold by BricoDepot are OK but a friendly electrician I know told me they can melt a bit if a constant high current is passed through them and I have seen this with my own eyes as well (you learn from experience).

[Chancer]

There is nothing wrong with downrating the breaker and it might just protect your machine better in a notional overcurrent fault situation than the larger one but AFAIK there is no obligation to do so, in France the breaker is rated according to the conductor size, it is there to prevent wiring from overheating in a fault overcurrent situation and not the appliance itself.

 

There are only 2 exceptions to this in NFC 14-100 both where the only currents passed by the breaker will be miniscule and rather than insist on a tiny cunductor c.s.a. which doesnt exist they specify a 2 ampere disjoncteur for a 1.5mm2 cable, they are circuits for a V.M.C. and asservissment (the relay contact current for heures creuses switching)

 

I would be happy enough with an adaptor even though a washing machine takes a high current, - why? - they are a rare item for a tiny market in one country, that will have been designed and manufactured almost certainly by Legrand and there wont be millions of 10 cent Chinese versions being sold the world over.

 

Mind you at the price an adaptor will cost I could replace the breaker and fit a 16a socket and have enough left over for a restaurant meal, - Chinese made ones of course

[Loiseau]

Ooooo-er, guys!

My fuse board has those tilt-out fuse-holders into which you drop the appropriate fuse.

Well, I happen to have the electrician coming round in the next week or two for something else, so I will ask him to do what's necessary.

I wonder if that means I would then be able to run BOTH machines at the same time thereafter? I have never been able to do that, even though the house was built only in 1990.

Angela

[sid]

[quote user="Loiseau"]Ooooo-er, guys! My fuse board has those tilt-out fuse-holders into which you drop the appropriate fuse. [/quote]

Ooo-er indeed Angela!   [:-))]  When the electrician comes ask him for a devis to replace your tableau! The fuse cartridges do not give the protection that a modern disjoncteur can provide. The fuses simply protect against short-circuits whereas the modern trip switches can detect a current leakage (as for example when you touch a live wire) in milliseconds and trip off, thus preventing you from being electrocuted! 

It would be money well-spent. [;-)]

[Chancer]

Whatever you do don't ask him to replace the tableau, that would be giving him a license to spend money not that he wont assume he has one anyway, a circa 1990 tableau containing porte fusibles will be completely interchangeable with disjoncteurs as they fit on the same DIN rail and have the same dimensions.

 

It will probably already have the interupteur differentials (ID's, the trip switches referred to) you can tell by looking to see if each rangée has one, it will have a button marked "test" or just an isolating switch (inter sectionneur).

 

If you have no differential protection other than the EDF 500ma disjoncteur then a non marque tableau equipée "might" be cheaper than replacing the porte fusibles and inter sectionneurs, if its just a case of swapping to disjoncteurs you could do that yourself with relaive ease and in safety with some instruction.

 

Electricians around here want more than €1000 for a tableau change, sometimes a lot more (mine fully equipped cost me €60 each on promo) one guy paid €800 just to have his tableau lowered to the regulation height, he thought he was getting a new one for the price as he too had porte fusibles, but all he got was a junction box stuffed with dominos and incorrect wire sections used to extend the circuits down to the relocated tableau, took the "electrician" about 2.5 hours and maybe €25 or materials.

[sid]

Yeah, well OK... I replaced my own, needing more circuits etc, so it was a better solution, for me, in the end.

[Théière]

€1000, I wasn't aware it was a weeks work [:)]  Not looking forward to that job myself. The current installations isn't marvelous and is in the kitchen where I believe it's not allowed now, (height etc)

[sid]

Mine cost around 500€, DIY, so no labour, and there are many makes besides Legrand. Our electrician had already used Hager in the new extension so I opted for the same make, not cheap! Hager bits are not usually available in the brico sheds, but there are plenty of suppliers who will deal with "particuliers", and you can buy online. My electrician would have sold me the materials but online was cheaper.

Angela may not want to get involved in the work herself.

Job done in a day.

Surely the normes only apply to new buildings? My tableau is in the cellar.

[Théière]

I believe so Sid but what happens when you come to sell and have a survey?

[Chancer]

My €60 equipée ones are not of the highest quality but do have 3 smoked perspex covers over the rangées, just one of them alone costs €60 for any of the marque tableaux including Hager.

 

They are hard to work with, have a lot less volume for cables, gaines etc, have no provision for barrettes for live and neutral, the tiny earth barette does not have enough cable entries to use more than half the capacity of the tableau, in short I had to get very creative and inventive to use them but as I bought 6 for all the flats that purchase alone saved me a minimum of €2640.

 

The cost of electrical Equipment in France is ridiculous. An example, a coffret de communication, obligatory for a Consuel inspection, all the electricians around here specify the most expensive Legrand one which comes in at €1300 TTC plus fitting [:-))] for a pretty much empty box with a telephone DTI, a repartiteur d'antenne, une barrette de brassage (RJ45 patch panel) , an earth terminal and space to fit a LiveBox or whatever. Never mind the fact that no-one in this day and age uses ethernet for computers its all Wi-Fi and extension telephones are all Cordless, indeed one can only use one wired phone on a VOIP connection to a LiveBox or similar.

 

My conforming coffret de communications cost me the grand total of €7 each, nothing more than an empty flush mount boîte de derivation with empty gaines running to it from all the required locations for phone (the apartments dont have phones) computer and TV sockets, it has a domino strip connected to the earth of the tableau, the tv cable runs in and out again to the TV without being broken by a connector, I have already passed Consuel with these, all the Equipment and connections could be fitted in the future if need be but will we ever go back to ethernet in the home? - I doubt it.

[Théière]

Le Grand (prix) it would seem. So much prefer the less common but more sensible approach you take to an empty box. Rules get passed so slowly by these boards etc that technology moved on before they even sign the decree but muppets just follow. Emperors new suit of clothes springs to mind €1300 euros!  they need their flippin heads examined.

[sid]

I have to agree with Chancer about the cost of these materials here in France, and I suppose that's why we see the much cheaper versions in places like BricoDepot. I never feel that the quality is as good on the cheaper marques, and anyway, it's also about safety - how do you assess that?

As for surveys, the regulations about siting of tableaux applies to new builds; we had a survey on our house and the old tableau wasn't even mentioned (a fusebox basically, positioned on the narrow staircase). We had an extension built on the house, and a new mains cable from the road (meter), which arrives in the cellar where the new tableau is installed. I replaced the one on the staircase which serves the original part of the house.

As far as the OP is concerned I'd still recommend taking out the fuses and replacing with "disjoncteurs". If it's a box with DIN rails and there is (are) already "differential(s)" on the tableau, so much the better, and this would cost the earth.

A photo would help here.

[Chancer]

There is no doubt from looking at them and having taken them apart that they are not of the same quality but lets be honest, where do Legrand and the others sub their production to? - You guessed it China, often its the same factories that produce the copies albeit in a cheaper manner.

 

I am deeply suspicious of all the Youtube clips and exposes of the testing of Legrand and the copies where the copies "burst into flames", its all a set up by the manufacturers, listen and look carefully, they are doing a surintensité test, a simulated lightning strike, the normes say that the breaker must trip, the both do, whilst the millions of volts are maintained on the cheap breaker there is arcing and the material will burn but it self extinguishes as soon as the ignition source is removed as the normes require.

 

The cheap ones actually exceed the requirements of the normes and do what they are supposed to, a lightning strike is measured in milliseconds, on the test they maintain the voltage for a long time to make it look like your tableau and house will go up in flames, they alse choose a voltage high enough to overcome the contact seperation on the cheap disjoncteur but not high enough to trip theirs, a higher voltage would have exactly the same result on their breaker, in any case its not a test, its cinema!

 

Neither the marque nor the cheap disjoncteur should be re_used after a lightning strike they both probably would not function anyway.

 

Having been using them for close to 10 years on what is now 6 tableaux in my place and several I have fitted or commissioned elsewhere I have never had a failure other than through plaster dust ingress and that is easily remedied by whacking the disjoncteur onto a hard surface to shake it out.

[Quillan]

Most of our breakers are Legrand. I put an outside 16A socket on the wall to run a caravan and used a cheap box from BricoDepot and a 16A breaker with a residual current breaker (or whatever it is called) in the box as well, mainly because it is a caravan and made of metal so it seemed logical to me to do it this way. Anyway I noticed a smell from the box so powered it off and checked the breaker and it had melted all down one side exposing the 'mechanics' within. Replaced it with a Legrand breaker and no problem since. When new circuits were added to the house I have always installed Legrand breakers because that is what all the others are. My electrician who checks my work, installs the breaker and connects it up swears by Legrand. Incidentally the cheaper breakers don't fit my old box because of they way the bus is connected so that's another reason I don't use them. Also Legrand have a sliding lock onto the rail at the front and back that makes them easier to replace.

[Dave_D]

Thanks guys for all your input.

Sorry to not reply before now but not been around to be online.

Having already replaced a couple of the flip down fuses for modern trip equivalents I'll do the same for the 20A fuse and pop a 16A trip to replace it and then swap over the socket. Think I'd prefer to do that rather than an adaptor.

Many thanks

Dave

[Chancer]

[quote user="Quillan"] I noticed a smell from the box so powered it off and checked the breaker and it had melted all down one side exposing the 'mechanics' within. Replaced it with a Legrand breaker and no problem since. When new circuits were added to the house I have always installed Legrand breakers because that is what all the others are.  Incidentally the cheaper breakers don't fit my old box because of they way the bus is connected so that's another reason I don't use them. [/quote]

 

The heating was in 99% probability because you hadn't tightened the screw enough, a mistake we all make until we see the results, its componded by the weird screw heads they use which wont allow enough torque without the special screwdriver.

 

DIN rail mounted breakers are supposed to be interchangeable and conform to the dimensions of the european standard, they indeed are from all manufacturers except the French ones who will stagger the connections for the peignes so you cannot (easily) fit breakers from another manufacturer but a competent person can find a solution, the French electricians wont spend their time to save you money so are very happy with things like this. they also will move the front face up or down so you cannot fit the front on the tableau after managing to fit the breaker, the bit that protrused through the front will be misaligned to the others.

 

They also do this with the disjoncteur de branchements, the compteurs, platines and habillages, you might with some effort manage to fit one make of compteur to another make platine and another disjoncteur (remember that they are supposed to be standardised but you wont get a habillage to fit the platine unless its the same make and it wont fit over the compteur and disjoncteur unless they are the same make.

 

You can guess how I know all this [:(]  luckily I am determined.

 

Quillan next time you tighten an electrical connection really screw it to death, its less of a problem these days with Wago connectors, the connectors that take real power like the 400 amp ones in my colonne collectif and outside coffret have heads that shear off when tightened to the correct torque and it also prevents them from being tampered with, someone loosening a connection could result in a building burning to the ground.