parsnips
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Posts posted by parsnips
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[quote user="Fittersmate"]Thanks MintWe came over here in Sept 09. I had retired so had E121 and OH piggy-backed on that until he got his own S1 when he retired in September 2012. We went to the local CPAM office with his S1 and he got new carte vitale. From reading the email again it seems as if the Impots want an attestation from CPAM for each of the years we are claiming for so will go there tomorrow and see if we can get this from them.With regard to the income it is quite clear on the avis where this has come from so will send them the avis again.When I went to see our local tax office this year because of a mistake they had made re pension income the gentleman we normally see and who has always been quite helpful did not seem to know anything about reclaiming CSG and did not want to know!Hopefully Parsnips will see my post and advise me.[/quote]Hi, They are being deliberately obstructive ; as said get any and every document you can think of (monthly relevés of health reimbursements amight help) . Marriage regime is irrelevant. Also refer them to the government documents I referenced in previous posts. Make sure there is a written record of your visit to meet the 30 day deadline. Sorry to be brief, but I am pushed for time .
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[quote user="pomme"]I took my claim for the three years to my local tax office in September including the S1. The local office even accessed CPAM data to confirm that. A few days later they posted me an acknowledgement with three reference numbers and stated they were sending it to the departmental tax office.Having not heard any more after twelve weeks, I e-mailed the departmental office last week with copies of my original claim letter and the acknowledgement letter from the local tax office. Obviously nothing had been done as I have now received the following reply "J'accuse réception de votre réclamation (dont vous me joignez copie). Votre demande sera traitée prochainement. Le cas échéant, je ne manquerai pas de vous demander un complément d'information en vous contactant à cette adresse mail."[/quote]Hi, In order to get a definitive answer about whether CSG would be taken on 2015 income , I phoned the enquiry line at Bercy , the tax headquarters. I had a very interesting conversation with a helpful man there , who confirmed that no CSG would be taken on 2015 income, but also said that as far as was known , no decision had been taken on how this would be handled ; there may be a change to the declaration forms , or CSG may be taken and have to be reclaimed again. He said they were operating "de jour en jour" . It was apparent from what he said , and how he spoke, that as might be expected, the whole issue is probably being dealt with chaotically.
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[quote user="Daft Doctor"]Yes, we watch that too, an excellent series. I believe that the dam scenes are shot at Tignes, but a lot of the rest is around Lake Annecy. All beautiful scenery.I'll give the powers that be a few more days and contact them again at the end of next week if there's been no progress.[/quote]
Hi,
IMPORTANT DEVELOPMENT !
See these links;
and
Article à mettre en ligne – communique_du_ministere_des_finances_du_19_11_2015 prelevements_sociaux_dus_sur_les_plus values_immobilieres_mobilieres_et_sur_les_cessions_de_biens_meubles.pdf
This means that CSG will not be levied on capital gains on real
estate and shares sold in 2015 . So there is a window till 31/12/2015 to sell shares (or houses) and pay only the income tax , which is quite reasonable for shares held over 2 years. This may not continue into 2016. So I for one will be sorting out some UK investments to sell , and also making some charitable donations to reduce the income tax bill.Hi, I have had a hell of a job posting this -here goes another attempt- -
[quote user="Daft Doctor"]Yes, we watch that too, an excellent series. I believe that the dam scenes are shot at Tignes, but a lot of the rest is around Lake Annecy. All beautiful scenery.I'll give the powers that be a few more days and contact them again at the end of next week if there's been no progress.[/quote]Hi,IMPORTANT DEVELOPMENT !See these links;Les non-résidents affiliés à la sécurité sociale étrangère ne paient plus de CSG – Impôt sur le revenu – Le Particulier andArticle à mettre en ligne – communique du_ministere des finances du 19 11 2015 prelevements sociaux dus sur les plus values immobilieres mobilieres et sur les cessions de biens meubles.pdfThis means that CSG will not be levied on capital gains on real estate and shares sold in 2015 . So there is a window till 31/12/2015 to sell shares (or houses) and pay only the income tax , which is quite reasonable for shares held over 2 years. This may not continue into 2016. So I for one will be sorting out some UK investments to sell , and also making some charitable donations to reduce the income tax bill.
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[quote user="Daft Doctor"]I know I shouldn't, but I'm getting a bit irritated by the lack of communication from our impots after I sent all the necessary stuff to them on Sept 21st. I emailed them after a couple of weeks to ask re progress, and they quickly told me that as with all 'réclamations contentieuses', the paperwork had been forwarded to a specific district department in Annecy. Almost 2 months later, nothing, the réclamation hasn't even appeared on my espace client on the impots.gouv.fr website. Should I be concerned? Should I fire off anther email? I did see somewhere that the authorities have up to 6 months to respond to a claim, but if they don't reply during that time nor ask for an extension of 3 months more, you are to presume that your claim has been rejected!! There is no obligation to inform you of that decision, nor, presumably, justify it. Only in France![/quote]Hi, ANNECY? If you have been following "The Returned" on TV (shot in Annecy) you will now know that the tax office there is probably really staffed by the walking dead, unlike all the other tax offices which only seem to be!
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[quote user="Fittersmate"]Not having received any acknowledgement re our claim I looked on the Impots site (Mon Espace) and found that our claims are listed there. Can anyone tell me what "décision réclamation sans sursis" means, please.Many thanks.[/quote]Hi, It means that a decision is pending , but in the meantime you have to pay by the due dates and possibly get a refund . A "sursis" is a postponement of payment which can sometimes be obtained until a decision is made.
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[quote user="mint"]Now that all tax demands have been sent out and paid in full or in part, is there any movement re these "contributions"?Has anyone had these varied or, even more incredibly, refunded?I am only talking to people in receipt of S1s of course. Would be good to know if there is any development, good or bad.Parsnips, do you have any news for us please?[/quote]Hi, Here's the latest I have seen;http://www.toutsurlesimpots.com/restitution-de-csg-crds-le-mode-d-emploi-de-la-dgfip-pour-les-non-residents.htmlIt still talks only about "non-residents" but as the criteria are non- affiliation to the secu , it should also apply to us S1 holders.
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[quote user="nomoss"][quote user="parsnips"] If one of you is over 60 and your total net taxable income for the year before last was less than the maximum for exemption from taxe d'habitation (16392€ for 2015) you are exempt on the pension . I[/quote]I believe you intended to say "maximum allowing a reduction of taxe d'habitation", which I believe is 25130 euros for a married or pacsed couple.[/quote]Hi, You are correct, I must not post in haste!
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[quote user="frenchdc"]Hi,I am trying to calculate our social charges liability on a private company pension of 15000 euros but am a little confused with the exact rules as we currently pay reduced taxe d'habitation.We are both under retirement age and we currently pay no income tax. Is the csg 7.5% or 3.8% plus the crds of 0.5%?Or do we pay nothing?What figure is then deductable for tax the following year?What are the social charges if I take a lump sum from my pension?What are the social charges on uk savings interest?so many questions!fdc[/quote]Hi, If one of you is over 60 and your total net taxable income for the year before last was less than the maximum for exemption from taxe d'habitation (16392€ for 2015) you are exempt on the pension . Interest is subject to 15.5% CSG.See here;http://droit-finances.commentcamarche.net/faq/5778-exoneration-de-csg-sur-les-revenus-modestes-plafond
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[quote user="frenchdc"]Hi to all,I am thinking about taking my UK company pension early. I am resident in France ( 57 years old ) and I want to know what my liability will be for tax, health and social charges on my monthly pension as well as the liability on taking a lump sum please. Any help greatly appreciated[/quote]Hi, Any lump sum can be just added to your income on form 2042 box 1AS "pensions etc..." and it will be added to your taxable income and taxed at your marginal rate , or if you think that would be more than 7.5% you can declare at 2042 box 1AT and have it taxed at flat rate 7.5%. The pension (unless you have full private health insurance should be declared in the appropriate line of section VIII on form 2047, for social charges. Your monthly pension must be declared at 2042 box 1AS and 2047 sec VIII.
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[quote user="pomme"]Yes, from our local tax office knowing about the issue and the forwarding of claims to the departmental offices, it seems possible there is some documentation floating around about what to do with the claims. But it may be that is just to get to central offices where the claims can be collated so they can see the size of the problem. The legislation to action repayments has not yet be submitted for ratification, so there could be some work on trying to wriggle out going on.[/quote]Hi, There certailly is "wriggling " going on ! ; see my post and links of 18/09/2015 at 16.41h.
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[quote user="pomme"][quote user="parsnips"][quote user="pomme"]If the tax offices are sending Avis Rectificatif, it sounds as though they are going back and redoing the calculations completely. So the part of the CSG which is deductible from the following year’s taxable income will also be removed. That could result in a higher income tax bill and the total refund not being as high as the CSG refund claim made.[/quote]Hi, I don't see how you come to that conclusion. The CSG deductible is only a fraction of the CSG paid which is deducted only from the following years taxable income (and so has a marginal effect on income tax only) , but not from the gross investment income which up till now all remained subject to CSG. As , hopefully , no CSG at all will be taken for the years concerned , I fail to see how one can fail to be better off.[/quote]That was what I said but, as a result of the CSG credit being removed in the income tax calculation, the net income on which tax is charged could be higher. So the refund would only be the CSG less the difference between the original income tax charges and the revised calculated figure not the CSG claimed back.In my case, because I sold a significant investment, the 2013 CSG charge was a five figure amount. The credit applied in 2014 was a significant four-figure sum and deducting that (and the other credits) brought my income down below the lowest tax band. As a result I ended up not paying any income tax in 2014. I suspect, if the CSG credit is added back in to my income, it will bring me back into the taxable income bands.[/quote]Hi, But if, as you say, the CSG charge (which hopefully will be refunded) was 5 figures and the credit against taxable income was only 4 figures, then even if the whole credit is wiped out and all the increased taxable income subject to 14 % tax it will still be significantly less than the 5 figure refund.
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[quote user="pomme"]If the tax offices are sending Avis Rectificatif, it sounds as though they are going back and redoing the calculations completely. So the part of the CSG which is deductible from the following year’s taxable income will also be removed. That could result in a higher income tax bill and the total refund not being as high as the CSG refund claim made.[/quote]Hi, I don't see how you come to that conclusion. The CSG deductible is only a fraction of the CSG paid which is deducted only from the following years taxable income (and so has a marginal effect on income tax only) , but not from the gross investment income which up till now all remained subject to CSG. As , hopefully , no CSG at all will be taken for the years concerned , I fail to see how one can fail to be better off.
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[quote user="woolybanana"]Ah, Parsnips, there is hope then.[/quote]Hi As I feared the thieving s*ds are trying to wriggle out of the judgement!
See this in today’s les Echos:
and in Figaro (which seems to suggest that S1 holders may escape from this)
It is not clear from the article exactly who is concerned by their
manoeuvring* , or , indeed whether they will succeed . It appears that the years 2013,2014 , and 2015 are safe , but it would be well to take capital gains on investments sooner rather than later.- It only specifically mentions french nationals resident outside France who receive income from french real estate , but all these issues are connected.
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[quote user="johnycarper"]We have been here for 10 years and running a business so paid taxes over here also for our English company pension,I just wondered if anyone has any idea,a.roughly is the french pension worth chasing when we reach 65.b.is there anyway we can see what its worth.We will be returning for good to the uk early next year.Thanks[/quote]Hi, I would think it would be worth applying for it when you get to retirement age; if you give details to the UK pensions office you will be paid a combined pension by the UK ;Here is a Calculator issued by the government ;http://www.marel.fr/
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[quote user="woolybanana"]Well, letter and paperwork sent off to get dosh back. Just out of interest, has anyone had a favourable outcome as yet?[/quote]Hi, I have seen a post on a similar thread on another well-known forum saying so.
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[quote user="Daft Doctor"]I've read all this stuff with interest as I am sure I may have right to a refund also, but just wanted to clarify a couple of points before I plunge headlong into a letter using Parsnip's very useful template.Firstly, is it only UK investment income and savings which are exempt from SC's for S1 holders, or is it all income, including French savings interest for example? Secondly, I had an early-retiree's S1 from arriving in France in May 2012 until January 2014, but my wife was an autoentrepreneur throughout and was therefore 'à la charge' of the French system, paying her quarterly cotisations. My health care was therefore through CPAM, hers was through RSI. How would this affect the right for me to reclaim? Would I still be able to reclaim all social charges on accounts held in my sole name and 50% of social charges levied on joint accounts? Any advice on these questions (thinking of Parsnips particularly, but others may know) would be gratefully received.[/quote]Hi, First it must be said that, as usual , many tax offices and financial advisers will get it wrong.In my opinion the following words in the ruling from the Conseil d'Etat are quite clear and mean that SI holders cannot be subjected to social charges on any of their investment income wherever it arises;" ....que la circonstance qu'un prélèvement soit qualifié d'impôt par une législation nationale n'exclut pas que ce même prélèvement puisse être regardé comme relevant du champ d'application du règlement n° 1408/71 ; que ne peuvent être assujetties à des contributions relevant du champ d'application du règlement n° 1408/71 les personnes qui résident en France mais qui ne relèvent pas du régime français de sécurité sociale ;" roughly translated..... " the fact that a national legislation (france) regards an imposition as a tax , does not exclude that same imposition being regarded as falling under EU reg.1408/71 ( which states that a citizen can only be subject to one social security regime at any one time); (therefore) that persons residing in France but who are not affiliated to the french social security regime (S1 holders) cannot be subjected to contributions falling under the scope of EU reg .1408/71."No mention there of country of origin , and as it is obviously the "personne physique" and not the income itself or the account holder who can be subject to a social contribution then all investments including french life assurance and bank accounts must be included.In your particular case , I can only suggest setting out fully the circumstances in your claim , and expecting a long and tedious exchange with the tax people. From what some have posted , it seems that a lot of claims are going in (some banks are charging for a claims service) and at least some offices are passing claims up the chain of command.
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[quote user="Quillan"]Parsnips - Please can you send me a copy of the stock letter, it's worth a try. If I get nothing back and still have to pay in the future then so be it but if you don't ask you don't get.[/quote]Hi, See my post dated 18/08/2015 page 2 this thread.
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[quote user="Chancer"]
You might be right but rather you then me on that one Quillan, I choose my battles carefully.
Its one thing not paying the social charges on UK income if you have already been taxed on it and maybe the legislation had not considered the S1 loophole but to not pay social charges on French income when it has already had an abattement of 71%...................
Quand même! Il ne faut pas deconner [:P]
[/quote]Hi, There is no place in these matters for reasonableness or common sense; it is a matter of law. S1 holders are no charge on the french state. The "social charges" were created as a sleight of hand in the late 90s, to attempt to reduce the deficit in order to qualify for entry to the € . At the time , as usual ,the french people were groaning under what they saw as excessive taxation. To justify further increases in the pillaging of peoples incomes , the new tax was dressed up as a "contribution" to a collection of "good causes" like health, education and family allowances , which no good "republican" could quibble about. In 2001 the European Court ruled that pensioners with E121 (nowS1) should not be charged the new "contribution" , which at Court the french claimed was actually a general tax (not what they told their tax-payers); the Court saw it differently and ruled that under reg 1408/71 it could not be charged on the earnings of french frontier workers nor their pensions - by extension this also applied to UK state pensioners. At the time some (including me) petitioned Brussels that this principle should also apply to all other income. Brussels stated that they had only been asked to take court action on frontier workers . At the time no-one was prepared to commence court action on other income. Now , thanks to Mr De Ruyter , the french government's duplicity has come back to bite them in the derriere. I advise people to claim back as much as they can for the eligible years 2012/2013/2014 , and this year, for I don't doubt that the finance ministry's experts are scheming hard to find a way round the problem. As an ex-tax officer myself (before I got a proper job), I fear that the solution would be quite simple ; however I won't mention it here , just in case they read this forum. -
[quote user="woolybanana"]My tax inspector neighbour reckons it may not apply to anything earned in France, but is not yet sure.[/quote]Hi, I refer you to the last paragraph of my post.
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[quote user="Francophile"]The clue is probably in the title of this thread, but can somebody please confirm, on good authority, that it is only Investment Income that is exempt from Social Charges for holders of an S1?Or, preferably, can somebody please confirm, on good authority, that income taxed under the Microbic regime (such as rental income from running a gîte) is similarly exempt?[/quote]Hi, Here are the words used by the Conseil d'Etat in it's ruling of 17/04/2015;" que la circonstance qu'un prélèvement soit qualifié d'impôt par une législation nationale n'exclut pas que ce même prélèvement puisse être regardé comme relevant du champ d'application du règlement n° 1408/71 ; que ne peuvent être assujetties à des contributions relevant du champ d'application du règlement n° 1408/71 les personnes qui résident en France mais qui ne relèvent pas du régime français de sécurité sociale ;" roughly translated " the fact that a national legislation (france) regards an imposition as a tax , does not exclude that same imposition being regarded as falling under EU reg.1408/71 ( which states that a citizen can only be subject to one social security regime at any one time); (therefore) that persons residing in France but who are not affiliated to the french social security regime (S1 holders) cannot be subjected to contributions falling under the scope of EU reg .1408/71."I regard that as a pretty good authority that S1 holders are exempt from all and any social charges on all their income from any source - however , don't be surprised if , in the first instance , your local tax numpties do not understand or accept the implications of this ruling.
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[quote user="chocolatefish"]Hi parsnips As french residents all your assets worldwide fall under french inheritance and tax laws.Re. the above, does this mean that if we both died tomorrow, our estate would have to pay inheritance tax on our UK assets to the French govt? And not to the UK govt? And which tax regime would be used to calculate the tax due?Cheers[/quote]Hi, If you both died tomorrow , under french law your children would inherit in equal shares all your assets automatically , including your UK real estate -unless you had specified otherwise in an english will. All your non-real estate assets would be subject to french inheritance tax, calculated under french tax rules ,and not UK IHT. The exception is UK real estate which in the first instance is subject to UK IHT and then to french IHT , with credit given for any IHT paid in the UK. Your children would each get 200 000€ tax free (100 000€ for each parent) and be taxed on the balance at a little under 20%.
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Hi, As french residents all your assets worldwide fall under french inheritance and tax laws. If you die in France your succession will be dealt with by a french notaire (even if you have opted for UK law). You definitely need to make some arrangements for your successions, but not necessarily a Will as such. If you each wish your spouse to have control of all the family assets during their lifetime , you can have a notaire draw up "donations entre époux" , these are instruments that give the survivor several options of how to take the deceased's assets - all in life interest, 1/4 or 1/3 in full title with the rest in life interest, or just 1/4 in full title with the rest directly to the children. The decision is made at the succession (priorities may change with age). At the death of the life interest holder all the assets pass to the children without inheritance tax . You need to talk to a good english- fluent notaire. The cost of the donation is about 140€. You could instead each make wills in the same , or similar terms .If you want the surviving spouse to inherit all the family assets , you can now each make a french will opting for UK law , and simply leaving all your asses to your spouse , at whose death they will pass automatically to the children. The only downside to this is that the children will only get one set of allowances against french inheritance tax on all assets. ( 100 000€ each.)
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Hi, I believe that you are not yet an S1 holder? In that case , if you are in the french health system your UK savings including bank / building society interest etc, are taxable only in France (and subject to social charges - even under the new ruling) and any tax paid in the UK should be reclaimed from HMRC.
latest on those pesky social contributions, please
in French Finance
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