[The next target group will be pensioners]

I wanna t-shirt - in rainbow colours - with 'Nothing's ever my fault' on it...

As for pensions - anyone read this report -

Professor David

Blake, Director of the Pensions Institute at the Cass Business School,

has written a paper outlining 10 reasons why staying in the EU ranges

from "pretty bad to very, very bad" for pensions. 

His

devastating analysis came as new research has revealed

that just one EU directive due to come in shortly will increase the cost

of British pensions by £328 million a year.  Read it, understand the implications; and then realise that for the younger generation remaining in the eu could have been far more devastating for them.

Be careful with the finger-pointing at the older age-group as well - indulge in that and there's 3 fingers pointing towards you.   The reason the eu failed was due to ever-increasing power grabs by brussels.   They couldn't stop themselves.   Don't forget also that the older age-groups were the ones that were lied to originally, that have been lied to for years - and who have enough life experience to realise the destruction caused to their lives, their jobs and their country by those who chose not to listen.

Yes, there are personal stories at the moment of life throwing hiccups - but it does that.

Didn't hear of any tears from anyone on here about the loss of jobs at Ford Transit when British workers were thrown out of their jobs and those jobs moved to Turkey -WITH eu funding... explain that;  how about a few tears for those people employed with families and mortgages to support - go on - let's have tears for them.

And many others - shall I list them ?

Maybe not - but I could;  and it is more than likely that those 1,000s of British workers had families to support, children going to uni, plans for moving to a larger home or to start a family - and the long list I could provide - has at its core - eu funding to move jobs FROM the UK to places like Turkey, Malaysia, Spain - it's a long list - but the eu is implicated in destroying British jobs - 1,000s of them - and the families.

So yes, we'll hear the tear jerking story of one family who is known personally to one forum member - but there are thousands out there - affected by eu funding to move jobs FROM the UK - but because they were the shop floor workers, the production teams, the manufacturing lot - didn't hear one tear-jerking story about any of them, did we ?

Sometimes it seems the sympathy is so one-sided.   Yes, there are going to be difficulties;  OK someone can't buy their new house at the moment - maybe that's a good thing because interest rates seem to be going down even more;  3 months time the money-lenders will be giving out mortgages with 0% interest.

And house-prices are, supposedly, going to come down by about 20% - win, win I'd call that.

[Great - now what???]

No different to ALL political party 'promises' and 'manifesto commitments' then.   Remember student fees - LimpyDumbos that one wasn't it ?  Blairs' promise that any 'constitutional changes to the UK would go to a Referendum'; how come the Lisbon Treaty didn't go to a Referendum.

They are ALL crooks, l---rs - and I don't believe much of what they say.   But at least in the UK if they really tell huge stonking 'lies' to us - we can kick them out.   As the LibDems know to their cost.   As Churchill said - 'Democracy isn't perfect - until you look at the alternatives'.

McMillan had it right 'Circumstances, dear boy - circumstances'.

With all the polls running the way they were, I think the 'Leave' side have been caught on the back-foot;  looking at BJ, Mr G and Mr F the morning after there did seem to be a bit of 'crumbs - now we've done it...' look about them.

I doubt also that anyone really thought that the european 'elites', whom we've bailed out through the ecb, and the imf would really turn and kick over the cash machine quite so nastily.    It appears that the 'elites' Merkel included are panicked, they really want to punish the UK for having had the courage to say 'The eu has gone wrong, it is a disaster, we're divorcing' - and losers always turn nasty, don't they ?

As for Scotland - I didn't realise that they hated the English so much;  it was Scotland that ran out of money and wanted the 'Union' - at least that what's my history books told me.   But the eu don't seem to have been very welcoming to the Scots either.  

I do wish they'd all take a few days off, time to recoup and think - and that goes for the eu lot as well - wish they'd all take a deep breath before sounding off and saying things that they will or should regret in future.   Rather telling that the first meeting of the 'elites' after the UK referendum was with the 6 - note that just the 6 - financial eu bods;  aren't there other countries involved in the eu as well ?

[Great - now what???]

Yes - I'm rather disappointed - but there could be a good explanation for it all you know.

For years, and years, and years - no-one in the UK was allowed to make ANY kind of reasonable criticism about the NUMBERS - and it was the NUMBERS that were of great concern.

UK citizens were told they were 'thick, lazy, rascist, xenowotsit etc etc' - all the insults the faux snooty sanctimonious anglo-phobic value-signalling insults that could be thrown at the lower income, lower to medium ordinary decent people of the UK - who kept the country working - were thrown relentlessly, year after year.

They were NOT allowed to give voice to their genuine concerns.   They were shut up.   So of course there's been growing resentment - and fury at the politicians and the so-called trendies from the bbc and the guardian etc etc.

We are seeing a nation that was silenced;  a nation that did have real and genuine concerns - that were being ignored for far too long.   Fortunately in the UK, unlike many other countries, there is very little move to the far-left or the far-right.   The UK citizens put up, shut up and got on with things - with a growing resentment.

Is it any wonder that, for the time being, there's a bit of a release of tension going on;  maybe they can't believe they actually had the courage to stand up for their own country - for once - and they no longer care about being sneered at;  the little people have found their voice.

I do sincerely hope it's a short-term, passing phase;  but then we've had an incident, mentioned on this forum, about a British person here in France having a lighted cigarette thrown at him in his car - by a Frenchman.    Human nature is everywhere - regardless of nationality.

I just hope this blows over;  and that the normal decent british behaviour returns - I'm sure it will - I'd be disappointed if it didn't - but these people, the british people, were ignored for too long;  whose fault is that ?

[Great - now what???]

The tax and welfare harmonisation is there in the 5 Presidents Report - and other reports - would suggest you check it out.

There was a report, and damnation but didn't keep the link - probably Guardian piece - which in the last week DID talk about a separate eu tax;  not just the Guardian but Telegraph and FT as well.

And of course, there's nothing wrong about us being tracked (after all we're not the Sir Phillip Greens of this world are we?) - but you can follow the thinking can't you.   Anyway, this has been passed by the Economic and Monetary Affairs Committee for a 'European Taxpayer Identification Number' to keep track of every eu citizen.    And your UK NI number is now a European TIN - check it; same as France.    Right; fine; not a problem - until you think through the implications...because HMRC now regard every UK citizen as owing them XXX £s unless you can prove you only owe X £s.  French system ? 

And the tax and welfare harmonisation is not new;  again check out Guardian pages;  and the 'harmonisation' - averaging out - including Bulgaria, Roumania, Albania, Macedonia..... you can see where that one will go.

Anyway, I work on the principle that I don't trust any of them, not one, none of them at all;  in that immortal phrase - 'I am NOT a number.!!' - just don't like the 'feel' of it - another method of control.

If the £ goes down - doesn't that make exports - to the rest of the world - cheaper ?   And any eu imposed tariffs - well two can play at that game surely ?

We just need grown up reasonable sensible people in charge;  have we got that in the UK - nope;  have we got that in the eu - nope;  too much bad feeling both sides.  (Civil servants probably OK but they've been inculcated with 'the eu wants/demands/has banned.....' and might not able to think independently any more).

Possibly we should bring in experienced trade negotiators from Canada, Australia and New Zealand - under our new points system - as being skilled, need, professional, qualified people.

[Great - now what???]

So the price of beer will rise - doesn't the UK produce its own.

International calls - right - a huge part of the cost of living.

S Rose actually said at a HoC s-c meeting that 'wages will have to rise' (if the UK voted to leave) - that was an admission that M&S and others haven't been paying proper wages

Interest rates - going down, likely to stay down.

It will be swings and roundabouts;  the economists know nothing - it isn't a science, and they have got things so wrong in the past;  if they were so clever how is it that Lehman Bros, Goldman Sachs etc 'had problems'.

The sight of G Brown signing away 'our 1000 years of history' (Gaitskell) - in a darkened room, away from the rest of the eu cabal, and photographers - sums up the shabby and disturbing ethos of the eu.

Here's another sidebar;  how many of you have had letters from your UK banks asking about your tax residency - not a problem.  We complete French tax forms - not a problem.

You do realise that your tax number (or UK NI number) - has become an eu Tax number - so that they 'can track you anywhere in the eu';  not a problem - right ?

Wrong - because the eu is plotting tax and welfare harmonisation;  one of the plans, which may well be announced this week, is an eu tax - over and above and separate from any UK or French tax;  guess how they intend to collect that eu tax - through your glossy, gleaming, brand new 'eu tax number' - or hasn't that dawned on anyone ?

Exports will be cheaper if the £ falls;  we've coped with currency ups and downs before now - we'll continue to do so.   For UK manufacturers a low £ is good;  there are going to be huge, huge problems in the eu in the next few years - like to bet that the euro isn't going to fall in value - by a huge amount.

Independence, sovereignty, and our 1000 years count for far more than money.....

And the dream has been destroyed - by the 'elites' - NOT by european citizens.

[Has Brexit ruined our chances of a new life in France?]

Thank you so much ebaynut for a wonderful, clear and honest explanation of how the UK finds itself 'where it is'.

I remember the smirk on Heath's face when he was interviewed about the 'common market' - and his phrase 'there will be no loss of sovereignty' - who remembers that interview ?

His smirking admission that he 'HAD LIED'.

The generation that believed him were betrayed;   he was a Traitor - and has been hated by many - for a long, long time.

This is why a certain generation are cynical about politicians, are more than cynical about the eu - and the 'leaders' - we do NOT trust any of them, none.

Maybe you will begin to understand your mother's viewpoint.   It would have worked if left to the 6 or 7 'founding countries' - but 'they' couldn't stop themselves.   The power-mad elites destroyed the dream.   I'm heart-broken;  it could have been good - but was destroyed by the greed of the elites.

When you hear the politicos even admit themselves 'that the eu needs reform' - but we should remain and 'try' to make a difference.   Why ?   We've tried, and been kicked;  we are sneered at by the 'elites' in the eu - our input counts for no more than any other country.

Look at the 5 Presidents Report;  Agenda 21;  wait for the 'plans for the future' that are supposed to be published this week (but are probably on hold for the moment) - about the 'elites' plans for the little people;  the tax and welfare harmonisation;  the eu-wide income tax ideas - they will not stop.

I also believe that there was a large number of voters for 'Brexit' who in their hearts don't really want that - but regard this as a big wake up call to the eu 'elites' - that the eu does need Reform - and a change of attitude.   But hearing the bile from Junker maybe, just maybe, the UK has had a lucky escape - because things in europe are going to get nasty - and that's with 27 - and counting - countries all supposedly working in harmony and union.

Whatever the costs to the UK, and our own pockets - it is possibly one of the UK's finest hours;  look at the snowflakes - imagine if there had been a large contingent of the snowflakes around at the start of 1914, or 1939 - the world would be very different.

I think I'd better go and have lunch, enjoy the best of what France has to offer - and accept that if, or when, we return to UK - we will only be able to afford to live in a camper van, or a caravan.

[Great - now what???]

This side-bar needs to close - right now.

Since when did facts become 'rascist'; - I made NO rascist comment - none whatsoever and I will NOT be accused of that - that is libellous and I will not have it.

I did not mention any group by name - and as that 'group' is NOT  a race - even though I mentioned facts and nothing more, nothing I said could possibly be regarded as rascist.

That is libel.

----------------------------

I think it is extremely sad to see the European dream die;  it was a wonderful idea while it was restricted to 6 or 7 very similar in culture, standard of living and background of 6 or 7 countries.

It became flawed when it expanded, and was infiltrated by power-mad ideologues who had their own fixed ideas -

and refused to listen to the ordinary people.

Why a dream - that should have been kept to 6 or 7 countries - was destroyed by the power-hungry is something historians will write about in 100 years time.

For now, BECAUSE the power-hungry, ego-mad elites did NOT listen to the concerns of ordinary people - they are the ones to blame for the destruction of the dream -and ALSO for the far-right - AND far-left political parties.

When ordinary people are ignored they are forced into extremes.   Maybe if we had had people in charge who were more concerned with the ordinary citizens of their countries and listened - then maybe we would not find ourselves in the situation we are now in.

It is the fault of the power-mad, ego-driven, ideological twits - they never listened to their own people.

Funny how there are now remarks from Corbyn, and the eu 5 Presidents actually admitting that 'maybe, possibly, the eu needs reform'.

Well if they had listened in the past 10 years the dream would not have died.   But to see the eu now trying to work with 27 countries, with 5 more accession countries, plus Turkey (european ?), plus extending its tentacles into North Africa really should make us all stop and think.

The UK citizens have given a b---y nose to the autokrats - funny how it's the Brits yet again, like 1914 and 1939 has to take action to rescue european citizens, and give them back their democracy and self-rule.

Still love the Chines curse - 'May you live in interesting times'....

We just need to stop panicking;  reciprical arrangements have always existed between countries;  as for selling our homes - don't the French buy homes, or the Dutch, or the Germans, or the Spanish.   Would be interesting to know the numbers about how many French properties, owned by Brits, are actually sold each year.

We've all had the chance of an adventure, we're all rather independent and have the 'can do' attitude otherwise we wouldn't have taken this adventure anyway.

We'll survive, our country won't throw us to the French wolves;  the UK stock market has rebounded, the european stock-market is in trouble - but it'll settle back down once people have time to take stock.   Life will go on, exporting and importing will go on, businesses will function (and I hope the Ford Transit factory which was moved from the UK to Turkey - WITH EU FUNDING - has problems.

Have a lovely afternoon everyone - enjoy life while we can - there's always worse...................................!!!

[Great - now what???]

Ernie - simple reply;  yes I'm well aware of Halal - and the obscenity and cruelty involved.  I'm also aware of what happens in the Vietnamese slaughter-houses.  

I'm a vegetarian - have been for 30 years.    I believe those that eat meat should take responsibility for what happens to animals in the final moments of their lives.   Meat eaters are hypocrites (mostly) - because they do not want to know, and refuse to accept the horrible reality.

As for Halal meat entering the general food chain - WITHOUT - people being informed - was totally disgusting, and extremely offensive.    Yes, Halal was allowed, as an exception, in the UK for a very small group.   Unfortunately the demand - NOT from that small group - has now become very large.    So much so, that the UK's excellent and above eu standards of animal welfare and compassion - has now been destroyed because of the demands from a substantial group.

It makes me sick to my stomach - and I wish those who ate meat were forced to confront the cruelty that is being inflicted in their name.

And yes - it does have a relevance to the UK leaving the eu - because one of the terms agreed by Heath at the time was to cut ALL the UK's ties with the Commonwealth.

Which included importation of NZ lamb and Oz meat products - so those countries had to find markets elsewhere - which has indirectly led to the increase in live animal exports.

And people who don't understand should maybe do some fact finding.  

It is only a side-bar, it is not really important as such in thise debate - but it is a DIRECT spin-off to the T&Cs when the UK was finally allowed to become paid up members of the club.

[Great - now what???]

Sorry - but just going back to the pensions question.   Some still do not get it.   When Heath signed over the UK to the 'Common Market' quite apart from handing over our territorial fishing rights, he DID agree that the UK had to cut its ties with the Commonwealth.   One of those agreements was INDEED the freezing of pensions paid to those living in the Commonwealth.   That is a fact;  I can remember it from the time.

Yes, it probably suits present day Governments.  But it was part of the Treaty that was signed;  here's a link to a commonsense explanation of UK pensions paid round the world - which

does include the phrase 'bizarrely, UK pensions NOT paid to residents in the Commonwealth'.

Because those Commonwealth countries which had previously NOT had an agreement with the UK suddenly found themselves lumped into the Treaty.

Check it out;  a great injustice was done;  it cannot be changed unless there is/was a Treaty change.

www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/article - 6 December 2012.

As for NZ lamb - heard of quotas.   And totally as a side-bar - why do you think that NZ and Oz are now responsible for the cruelty and disgusting obscene export of live animals to certain Muslim countries ?   Any of you heard or know about the disgusting and appalling animal abuse that takes place?;  partly the UK's responsibility because, again, part of the 'signing away of our Commonwealth ties' - was the non-importation of frozen meat from NZ and Oz.

[Great - now what???]

Just a thought;  I've read all the doom and gloom predictions;  truth is a lot is going to depend on how the Brussels 'elite' and the gravy-train lot actually respond to this.

It will also depend very much on the quality of the UK civil servants (god help us).... the Sir Humphreys' of the UK - and Brussels.

But bear this in mind;  there are 600,000 French citizens living in the UK;  there are ONLY - according to the DWP - 138,000 UK citizens living PERMANENTLY in France - not the second-home owners, or half-yearly renters - but living permanently.

Now look at the gold lining;  if things 'got sticky' (and they won't) - but - the worst case scenario is that 600,000 french citizens decide to return to France - and they will all need homes won't they ?

Demand for French housing could increase by 400% !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now that's a great thought -

means the value of our homes could increase by ginormous amount !!!!!!!!!!

Lovely Chines curse - 'may you live in interesting times' - not sure it really is a curse.

We'll be fine everyone - honestly.  

[Great - now what???]

Please - can we get this 'great big lie' about freezing UK pensions out of the way - right now.

The UK, on joining the eu was TOLD - by the eu - that it was one of the 'terms and conditions' that the UK had to -

CUT ALL TIES WITH THE COMMONWEALTH.

That included the NZ lamb, butter, fruit exports from South Africa - EVERYTHING.

And that INCLUDED the UK pensions - they HAD to be frozen - on the instructions of the eu.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing that says any UK citizen living abroad should not be entitled to their State Pension wherever they live.

I'd suggest you look up the list of countries where the pensions are 'frozen' - and where they are STILL paid at the full UK rate.

It might surprise you;  but hopefully we will have a decent government which removes the eu DIKTAT, instruction, T&C - whatever - for all UK citizens living in former Commonwealth countries - but that is EXACTLY what happened when the UK joined.

So dinna fret - there's no risk to UK pensions - why should there be ?  

[Above ground pool]

One very important point to consider is this;  the pump and filter system won't be up to much.   If you have a good size pool then you really will need to buy a separate pump and filter combo, and use Zeolite (similar) rather than sand.  

The Intex pumps are not really effective at keeping the water crystal clear, and you can drive yourself mad having to keep throwing chlorine in it.  (I don't know about the salt Intex pools).

A more powerful pump, and a decent siezed filter will keep the water much cleaner, without using too much in the way of chemicals.

[French tax forms; eu 'harmonisation of tax & welfare']

Ah - thought that would grab your attention !!

Two thoughts;  French Tax Forms.  I struggle, every year, with these.   In the UK (sorry I know some of you hate that phrase - but it is relevant), the UK makes available tax forms, local council tax forms - myriad of forms -  printed not only in English, but Welsh, French, Polish - multi-language forms for multiculti population.

Now I know the French State (Napoleonic Law ?) insists that all its forms must be printed in French.  

The eu is planning (see 5 Presidents Report) and is talking about another 'harmonisation' - this time of welfare and tax systems.

Now wouldn't it be lovely if, under an eu Diktat, all French Tax Forms had to be available in several languages - including English - how I would love for that to happen.

Hate the yearly 'what does this mean' headache week.   Isn't it time France moved into the 21st century and accepted that these tax forms should be available in other languages.

Should I duck my head now ?

Chessie

[Mortgage Broker Recommendation]

One way or another - you'll end up paying fees - they've got you by the 'short & curlies' basically.

Most MBrokers do charge fees up-front - but that is usually after they've got some financial details about you and are able to say 'yes, we can help';  if they can't - then there's no fee.   I'd be very interested where those M Brokers - who 'charge no fee' - do finally end up receiving some money - but from where is what I'd want to know !!!

The reason for using a MB is that they DO have access to various mortgage providers - some small, some 'off the main radar' but who are willing to help smaller, niche markets.  

If you are attempting something a bit out of the ordinary, although it hurts financially, M Brokers do have access to far wider sources of funds than are available to individuals.

It's a case, like everything, pays your money and takes your choice;  M Brokers will charge you, and yes they'll get commission from 'financial house' - but if you're asking for something out of the ordinary they can be a great help.   As well as finding a mortgage provider, they'll often help you through the process, might even negotiate/haggle on your behalf with mortgage provider;  some financial institutions will only deal with a M Broker with whom they have a 'good working relationship' and don't want to become involved on an individual case by case basis - the M Broker is the intermediary - and can be very effective.

And no, I have absolutely nothing to do with any M Brokers - but having recently been through the process I can speak with 'some' experience.

Good luck - with your money hunt, and your project.

[Too poor to stay warm]

OK - here goes - and I'm going to get a lot of stick for this - but please think this through before shouting at me.

Up until the Womens Equal Pay Act - mortgages were based on 2.5 or 3  times the annual main salary (ie the man's salary) plus .50 of womans salary (because a married woman didn't earn as much, and was likely to give up work when children were born).   That was the assumption - it meant that house prices were relatively stable, and it was possible to live cheaply in a flat, or save like mad for a deposit for a house  -but wages and house prices were stable.

Then along comes the Equal Pay act (and I do not want us to get diverted into discussing the rights and wrongs of that).

But it had a huge impact;  couples realised that, because of the Act, salaries of both partners in a marriage (and yes, that's how it was in the 60's and 70s) could be 2.5 times JOINT annual salary - suddenly couples could 'afford' a bigger mortgage and a 'better house'.   The result was the house prices zoomed upwards in the early 70s - simply because of the fact that couples could afford bigger mortgages.   Great.   Except that when couples wanted to start a family, suddenly what could be afforded on both salaries - really wasn't possible on just one salary.   So we had the very sad situation where women who had families were more or less forced to return to work to help pay the mortgage.   So the full-time working woman, with needs for full-time nursery care was born.

It is one of the sadder aspects of the Womens Equality Act - the women's libbers thought it was marvellous;  yes it was - but it had unforeseen impacts, which means today's young families  have a much more difficult financial time thatn young families did in the 1960s/1970s.

I can remember my father being horrified that I intended returning to full-time work when my daughter was one year old (for personal reasons I wasn't a happy stay-at-home Mum) - he even volunteered the services of my mother to 'care' for my daughter (without consulting my mother !!!).

I feel very sorry for today's young women;   they really do not, because of financial circumstances, have the choices that we had back in the 1960s and 1970s.   To a certain extent, they really were the 'good old days'.

And as for being 'chained' to the kitchen sink;  my mother in the late 1950s and 1960s certainly was not chained to the sink;  she was a nurse, enjoyed her job, enjoyed using her skills, worked part-time - and made the most of her non-working time.   Washing machines, Hoovers, etc made a huge difference to women's lives.     The impression given on the 'Back in Time' TV programme really wasn't strictly accurate.    My mother would enjoy several hours soaking up the sunshine in the afternoon during the summer;  and made a lot of her dresses, and mine during the winter months.   But she would have been irritated if anyone had said she was 'tied to the kitchen sink' - she certainly was not.

And oh - the freedom of the simple bicycle; no gears, just a simple bike with a saddle bag (luxury) the chance to get away from family and spend time with friends riding for hours, and miles, round the local countryside lanes.   No motorways, no by-passes, no high-speed HGVs;  just hedgerows, and birdsong and fresh rain on the face.   Sheer, utter, total bliss and freedom.   My brothers hated it that I had this freedom - and couldn't wait until they had their own bikes.   And damn me if they didn't want to follow me everywhere - even when I was meeting my boyfriends to go for a cycle ride!!!   (Kid brothers - who'd have them ? !!)

[Too poor to stay warm]

@Lindal - that sounds just lovely.

But on a realistic level, how many existing homes in the UK can have the ground source heat pump etc.  Only really possible out here in France because of more space, especially if being built from new.   Most ordinary people in the UK don't have the luxury of space, or the finance to do what you have done.

Lucky you - keep on glowing - but there are the vast majority who won't have your opportunity.  How many new builds in France, Germany, Spain etc - do have the ground-source heat-pump ?

[Too poor to stay warm]

@ Betty -You sound a good, solid, sensible parent - and rightly proud of your kids.

Possibly you are in the minority though....

Did you watch the programme recently on TV about a family who experienced life from the 1950s onwards;  sighs of nostalgia from me about the 60s and 70s.

What was very interesting, though, was the woman's reaction to how modern technology had caused huge changes in family behaviour.  In the 50s, 60s and 70s episodes the children were indeed out and about, with complete freedom, running around in the woods and playing in the streets - without any adult supervision.   Children today, although materially have 'everything' have lost that freedom;  and the woman made the very pointed comment about the 'lack of family time' and that element of enjoying life as a family was then missing from the 1990s onwards.

I can't help feeling that the PC world of not disciplining your children, of 'being friends' with your children, of 'having to earn their respect' (excuse me - you're the parent, you don't have to 'earn respect') has contributed in a large part to younger parents feeling unable - or not knowing how - to draw the line, to stand up to their bullying 5 year old who insists on having their own way.  I know what I did when 5 year old - occasionally - threw a strop - but I'd be accused of all sorts of 'abuse' nowadays - maybe that's where common-sense has been destroyed;  parents are frightened to take strict actions becuase they feel pressured into 'toeing the line'.  

Maybe the media is to blame;  we see on tv all the super-dooper modern homes, with all the gadgets, and all the actors walking around with flimsy clothes - and the modern yoof think that's how to dress at home - flimsy t-shirts etc - and the heating on full blast  !!

Maybe when the power-cuts happen and they have to wear coats indoors it might dawn on them just how silly they have been.    What also surprises me is that if they believe in 'climate change' - and think we should all reduce our energy consumption, shouldn't they be the ones walking around indoors with the thick jumpers and warm socks.......

And if they don't, then that shows a real lack of joined-up thinking doesn't it ?   So where has the common-sense gone ?   Reckon something's been put in the water  !!

[Too poor to stay warm]

Oh dear - who upset our 'Mod' ?  That's a shame.

I was enjoying the 'memories' of those who can remember the good old days.  I too remember frost inside the windows - used to enjoy scratching patterns in the ice.   And I did end up with a horrible chilblain which was pretty painful.   Mum's reaction - 'oh dear, don't know why... it;ll get better soon when the warm weather comes.....' !!

Amd the old electric fire with the curly wurly glow element;  huddled round that till I got scorch marks on my legs - every winter.   Took years for them to fade after we moved to a home with coal burning fire plus back boiler which ran the radiators - luxury.

But there are two main points here.   The 'yoof' of today do not have any common-sense whatsoever - let's be honest about that.   Totally spoiled, everything handed to them, wrapped up in cotton-wool (can't play conkers because of dangers' etc etc - we all know the 'elf & safety lot are total idiots).

There are also huge problems in the UK because the idiocy of signing up - thanks D Milliband and Davey - to a ruinous climate change act - which has caused the UK's energy bills to soar;  while efficient power stations are being shut-down and more and more reliance on sporadic wind and solar power.   Facing black-outs in the future the Government refers to 'stored energy' - which means that big businesses, hospitals, etc - will be running DIESEL GENERATORS as back ups.   Diesel generators for crying out loud - to cover the sheer stupidity of ALL Governments (and particularly Labour twits hatred of nuclear).      (Let's not get distracted by climate change/ blah blah here - whether we believe the 'cult' or not - it has led to the most ludicrous situation in the UK - and sheer short-termism by all governments  as to ensuring the security of energy supplies in the UK).

We are governed, everywhere, by idiots, complete and utter clowns who know nothing.

They are mainly responsible for many people in the UK having problems keeping warm and paying reasonable prices for energy to keep themselves warm and be able to cook.

Two huge problems.  But the young really do seem to be very stupid at times.

[We are the Compassionate Party...]

I remember at one time, when we were younger, working hard, paying mortgage, month longer than money supply having discussion with my Father about his pension.

When I pointed out that we and OH were, in fact, paying his pension he went ballistic.

He was furious;  went to great pains to point out how long he had worked, how he's paid all his taxes, supported us all etc etc - how 'dare' I say that it was 'our' taxes paying his pension.

There was also a bit of 'ungrateful young people' - he'd paid towards his pension - and it was utterly impossible to convince him of how the UK government finances worked.

A topic we could never, ever discuss.

He was an out and out Labour man though;  the Tories were '----';  Bevan, Wilson, Callaghan, Benn, Kinnock were wonderful, etc etc.

Never could convince him that he was wrong about his pension, or the Labour crowd.

[We are the Compassionate Party...]

NickP posted earlier -  (can't do copy/paste) -

That it was UNDER PRESSURE FROM THE EU - funny how that ahsn't been mentioned.

It seems that it was the EU - the so-called 'protector' of social rights and workers protection - that back in 1995 -

was putting under pressure - democratically elected UK Government.

Back in 1995 - we had a Conservative Government who appeared to come up with reasonable plans.

Then we had the 'wonderful' Blair years - 13 of them.

Then we had a Coalition Government.

Rant all the OP wishes to about this 'present lot' - but in fact the UK has ONLY had a proper Tory Government for the last 2 years.

So all the pension decisions will have been made - BY THE EU

By LABOUR

and COALITION

So shouldn't they be the ones to be 'ranted at'..........

But the EU STARTED IT ALL - back in 1995 - how about shouting at the EU.   Oh no, can't do that, they 'protect the worker', they are the only 'safety net' against the Tories -

REALLY.

The EU is a disaster for ordinary working people;  see what they did to Greece and the government of Greece; and Spain, etc etc.

So in any debate about pension changes then maybe ire and ranting should be directed to the EU - they are to blame.

NOT any recent UK Government.

[We are the Compassionate Party...]

To the OP who referred to the 'present government' in such 'glowing terms' -

Just A Reminder;  the UK has General Elections where voters cast votes for various political parties.

The UK Labour Government was never voted for by the majority of British people;  those who didn't vote for 'that' lot put up with them - because another General Election could change 'that lot'.

We now have 'another lot' - and again not voted for by the majority of UK voters - tough.

Don't forget all the 'slagging off' about the existing Government is really rather silly;  they are like buses - another 3 years and the UK could have the wonderful Mr J Corbyn - and his rather 'odd' friends in charge.   And when I say 'odd' - they are dangerous.

You gets whats you votes for - sometimes you is 'appy, and sometimes you ain't -

But Governments change; as for trusting this 'lot' - never;  as for trusting Corbyns' lot - never.

Do I trust any of 'em - nope.

And that goes for the French 'lot' as well.........!!!

[Praise for surprising customer service -]

Maybe French customer service really is starting to improve. !!

Here's what happened to us.  Family in UK arranged for us to receive large bouquet of fresh flowers, and a bottle of champers for special birthday.

Flowers arrived - no champers.   (But I didn't know champers had been ordered as well).

Phoned family to say 'thanks for lovely surprise', had a chat, and then a tactful enquiry about 'the champers' as well.   'Uhhhmmm sorry - no, just the lovely flowers'.

'Ahh - maybe we've made a mistake, and didn't order, I'll double-check'.

Three days later there's a delivery of a parcel with the champers - oh lovely;  let family know the champers has arrived - and that we'll enjoy.

This afternoon, special delivery - ANOTHER bottle of champers;  from the telefloral firm who had FORGOTTEN to include the champers with the flowers - and they have sent us another bottle of champers as an apology for not including bottle with the flowers.

We are quite keen to 'have a go' from time to time about French customer service - but I think this was an exceptionally nice touch - not just an 'apology' and a card - but another bottle.

So well done that firm (telefleurs) - and please Mods - don't remove that - because they deserve some praise for a really lovely way of apologising - they deserve good publicity.

Now we're going to enjoy this second bottle of champers this evening - lovely.

Chessie

[life after Brexit]

I find those who 'spout the Gronad' to be rather odd characters, to be honest.   They, too, don't hold back on their views..... so let's stop having a 'knock' at one of the most widely read newspapers - and stop sneering at the majority of British people please.   Not needed, not necessary, rather nasty.

We came out here not wearing the rose-tinted spex.   There will come a time when we will have to think about 'returning home' - and it is home because that's where our roots are, our parents are buried, our children and grand-children live, and where we have financial ties.

We have always assumed that at some point, because of decline in physical strength, or illness, that it would be easier for us to live in the UK.

Yes, there will be many things we will miss living here in France.  But there are many things I still miss about the UK - the vast choice of theatre, art, museums, leisure activities...etc etc - that really are not so available out here.

When night vision goes;  when it's not easy to lug the logs around... that's the time that reality kicks in and it would be stupid to pretend otherwise.

I don't want to grow old - whether here in France or the UK - in fact, I'm not going to grow old - except disgracefully.     But if we do, then we will return to the UK - and be a nuisance to family by refusing to move into sheltered accom or care home - no way.

France has been an adventure - we wouldn't have missed it.  We will miss the countryside, the wild-life, the lovely warm summers, the friendliness of the locals, all the differences - all make for good memories.   That includes dealing with the bureaucracy and everything else wonderful about France.

France is wonderful if retired;  it's a great challenge if young with family - and if there is a reasonable reliable income.   But it can be very worrying if not financially secure.

For the young French people out in rural France it is not so easy;  would any of us really like, as a teenager, to be away from the hustle and bustle and enjoyment of a big city, stuck out in the rural wilds of France with the nearest town, and employment opportunities - 30 or 40 miles away ?

We've been lucky to have had the chance;  we would have taken the chance whether the UK had 'joined' the eu or not;  it was always possible for UK citizens to live in europe - the eu didn't change that - made it easier yes, but not impossible.  

Maybe some of those who took advantage of the 'ease' and ended up in rotten financial or worrying situations might have avoided a lot of heartache if it had not been quite so easy to move across the channel in the first place.   Maybe being in the eu has made it too easy for those who didn't think through the implications - and we all know there are some who made the move and didn't make a success, or weren't happy.

Do I want to go back - no, not really, and we will defer going back for as along as possible.   But will we go back - highly likely.  To what - hopefully somewhere on the edge of a middle-sized town, with easy access by bus or taxi into town;  maybe not even have a car at all - and certainly not the 'his' 'n 'hers' we have out here - and the costs of the two;  home would be smaller than we have out here - because we won't have guests turning up for holidays.   Wouldn't look forward to proximity of neighbours, shouting teens, noisy roads, air pollution, over-crowded shops and roads.....hmmmm - think we'll put it off as long as possible.

Chessie (can I wear a purple hat with red stockings now ? !!)

[Brexit - carte de sejour]

What an interesting topic.. though we have strayed very far from the original posting.

Isn't it more a case of 'swings and roundabouts'.

Some pensioners will not need a great deal of medical care;  fit and healthy for a long whilte, and then fall off our perches fairly suddenly (in my case the quicker the better thank you very much).

Some people pay taxes etc all their working lives, retire - and then die within a few years of retiring - unfair, but it happens.   Some live into their 80s and 90s needing very little medical care.

Don't think it's quite right to paint the picture of every retiree out here 'clogging up GPs surgeries' - some of us haven't seen a GP for the last 10 years..........

And the point made about French people (higher numbers than UK expats out here) - living, working and paying taxes in UK - I can imagine a large number of them will want to return to 'home country' later in their lives.  The point made about them having contributed to UK, then later on returning to France and 'becoming a drain' is a very valid point.

Don't forget that the NI contributions in the UK were set up mainly, I believe for pension and health contributions, but the costs of hospitals, staff, training etc - was met out of general taxes not specifically from NI contributions.

The UK is in a rather unique position because it is 'free at the point of use' - and it is free for everyone, from wherever, when they need it, unlike many other european health systems.   I've read comments in the Guardian from posters who believe that the UK system should be changed - to be more like the european ones - but then that is going to penalise a lot of people in the UK, and I rather resent the suggestion that 'our' NHS should change just to suit the european systems.    (But that's another political point, and totally 'off-topic'.....sorry).

To get back to the main point then;  the Vienna Convention I believe would 'kick in', along with 'acquired rights' - I was just wondering how easy people had found it, what was required, what was covered - before the 2004 eu directive. should the French decide that was how it would treat future UK expats coming to live in France.

It would appear that, as retirees covered by the - separate - UK/French Treaty (recipricol rax and health arrangements) - it wasn't too difficult to move here, own property and not have too many (well not too many) difficulties.

So maybe none of us should worry whatever happens.   Might be hugely interesting if there was a Brexit - could cause huge changes in the EU itself one would imagine - but that's off-topic - let's not go there.

[Brexit - carte de sejour]

It's another of those 'what if' questions -

Prior to 2004 (I think) - wasn't it necessary, for eu citizens wishing to live in France that a 'carte de sejour' had to be obtained.   Only after 2004 with the eu Directive on 'freedom of movement' did that no longer apply.

So to those of you who came out here long before 2004 as retired rather than working - how did the process work ?   Was it difficult, complicated, worrying ?

We've had all the 'fear factor fright' comments today about UK citizens, should the UK do a 'brexit' - of not being able to live in France or Spain.   But we've had UK citizens living in France or Spain for many years since the 1960s onwards;  so why was it possible to do so before 2004, and why wouldn't it be posible to go back to the situation as it was before 2004 ?

Chessie