[Francois Hollande says......]

Shame I missed that.

Isn't it possible, though, that Ms May understands and speaks French, and Msr Hollande understands and speaks  English - and that they were both 'just playing for time' - or was this just 'sham courtesy' ?

[ex-pat bank account]

Well done your bank - but that is a completely, totally different situation.    Your bank took action because of trading protection - and to protect themselves to a certain extent - but it was absolutely nothing to do with your confidential tax matters.

Of course banks should carry out necessary credit checks etc;  but you are missing the point slightly.   The phrase 'nothing to hide' is one used by many people, over many ideas - but where do you draw the line.  

All I have done is point out that what the banks are now doing is complying with an eu Diktat.   We have no privacy about our tax affairs any more - it is not just between us and the tax authorities any more;  and banks pass on information don't they - doesn't anyone worry about this ?

[ex-pat bank account]

The banks now have to comply with an eu Diktat - in other words they have to 'know' the tax residency of their customers.   Yes, of course, it is possible to have a UK bank account(s) if you live abroad, particularly if your income derives from the UK ie pensions.

BUT - the difference now is that (like the USA) - all banks must know where you, as their customer, are paying tax - you will be asked, at some point, about tax residency.

Live in France - you will be asked for your French tax number.

Live in Spain - you will be asked for your Spanish tax number.

Your UK NI number is, as I pointed out earlier - now an eu Tax Identity Number.  

The banks must comply with the eu Diktat - and they pass information on to HMRC.

This is because the eu regards us all as not paying tax, being money launderers etc etc.

We are not trusted any more, in any way;  the people who have issued this Diktat, like Juncker, think we all behave in the way they do - and we can't have any freedoms !!!   Hate them all, I does........and not because of tax avoidance - but the sheer intrusion, all the time, into everything - we are NOT trusted.

[ex-pat bank account]

It's not just that some a/c might be for UK residents only.

The banks - all of them - are checking up on those with foreign transactions on UK bank a/cs -

because they need to know you are paying tax in the country in which you reside.

Your French tax number, your UK national insurance number - is NOW an euTIN -

a european Tax Identification Number.

In other words live in France, even if you have UK bank accounts - prove you are paying tax in France.

Spens part of the year in France, with non-UK expenditure - prove you are resident and paying tax in the UK.

EUTIN - it's another way of checking up on us all.

[A good analysis of the effects of Nice]

alittlebit french - here's some info for you;

If the reference to English Cricket concerned Eymet - can I tactfully point out something please ?   Yes the Club may have been started years ago by the Brits, like a lot of other Cricket Clubs in France.

But nowadays there is a mix of French, English and Dutch playing on the team;  there is also a very thriving younger section, including many superb young French players - and some of the French players originate from France's colonial empire - in other words - coloured and non-coloured (can I say that ?);  - a multi-mix, a diverse cricket team.  Please - check out the club web-site - you might be pleasantly surprised.

As for the 'concentration' of Brits in certain pats - I blame the English speaking estate agents who targeted us all - get a number of Brits in one area - and then like ants more follow !!!

And other posters refer to behaviour of Brits - be careful because quite a few are actually non-resjdent;  they may spend months here, but more time back in UK means non-resident.

As for French 'cool' - I do not understand that, at all.   Much prefer Polish people to French - always think of their spirit and bravery during WW2 (from history lessons mind, and listening to my parents - not personal !!! - not that old !!)

Anyway, the sun's shining - we should all be out enjoying  the swim-pools - too nice to be on here, tidied up after lunch - now heading outdoors to swat the wasps....

[A good analysis of the effects of Nice]

Oh now that's rather silly....

It is the numbers surely that is the problem.   How many french schools have more than 60% British children on the roll ?   How many towns or villages have more than 60% British resident ?

Don't think selling baked beans and bacon to each other would provide much of a living either !!!

Come on now - after all the French have taken over a whole part of London, with their own schools, and boutiques, shops and petanque .... why not have a go at them.

Naughty, naughty.

[A good analysis of the effects of Nice]

Ref the FN and UKIP, and AfD and others;  shouldn't we be asking 'Why' are these groups becoming popular - isn't that the real question ?   Because it is right across europe, european citizens are not happy with the 'establishment' because the citizens' views have been ignored.   Now whose fault is that ?

Can someone help me please ?    There was an article in the Guardian last couple of days about 'lack of support (Government/media ?) - for those who wish to reform Islam.... and I didn't get the time to read it.   It's now disappeared from the Guardian web-site, can't find it on Google - just wondered if anyone had read the article.

Maybe there's clues in that article.    Talking with friends over the weekend the consensus is that they wanted, very strongly, for the Nice murderer to be a 'deranged nutter' - because if it was a 'lone wolf terrorist' then they were worried about the implications.

I think the points made earlier about the way Muslims tend to congregate together, the children attend the same schools, that is a very closed world - is spot-on, and a good analysis of part of the problem.   But please look around the world;  I hate to say it but wherever there are a lot of Islam followers - there is trouble.   

There is a need to bring this 'religion/cult' into the 21st century;  there are some brave people trying to reform it - but there seems to be little mention of them - and they have had threats against their lives.    Doesn't it make you wonder, sometimes, about that 'religion' ?

The UN in a report 6 months ago said 'the world is in a mess' - one could see the metaphorical 'shrug of the shoulders, the heads in hands' - the feeling that even the UN doesn't have any answers.

Then you look at Turkey;  anyone believe in conspiracy theories ?   Any conspiracy theory nowadays could almost be believed.

It's becoming a sad, dangerous world - not what I had hoped to leave for my children and grand-children...and I'm sad.

[A good analysis of the effects of Nice]

Two point Chancer;  firstly maybe there wasn't much in the way of comments about the atrocity in Nice simply because people were numbed and horrified.   Sometimes the words of 'so sorry...thoughts with families' etc etc - although meant well, sometimes seem very trite in the immediate aftermath.   Sometimes some atrocities are just simply beyond words.  My first thoughts - 'Poor, poor France...hurt again'.

I encountered this article yesterday - which I found informative - but I hesitated to post it because of the newspaper in which it is published, and which seems to arouse such sneering contempt - even though the article could equally appear in the Guardian.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3692981/How-ve-seen-France-love-torn-apart-hatred-LEO-MCKINSTRY-lived-decade-witnessed-growing-tensions-locals-Muslim-hardliners-despairs-future.html

I know personally people living here in France who did vote for 'Brexit' - even though they knew themselves that such a vote would quite likely have a detrimental effect on their lives out here - but did so in the interests of the UK and their own children and grand-children - because the eu is definitely in all kinds of trouble.   The UK wasn't listened to when various Governments tried to alter the course of the eu - and how many times do you get abused before walking out of the door.

The response of the 'elites' in Brussels - wishing to punish the UK for leaving, for not allowing the UK any reasonable deal to trade with the eu - should make people stop and think.   Why, if the club is so good, would they need to 'punish' a leaver - '...and dis-suade other countries from wishing to do the same...'.    So the eu elites are threatening other countries not to do a Brexit - not because those other countries actually 'wish' to stay in the eu - but that they are being bullied into not even thinking about it.

The accountability factor has to be considered as well.   We have a PM, and a Leader of the Opposition who can be dragged into a TV studio and 'Paxo'd' - we can look them in the eys, we can hear the, lie or not lie - but they are there in front of us.    Who in the eu could we drag into a British tv studio and 'paxo' ? - any idea ?    That's the loss of accountability - that is the lack of democracy - that is the 'elites' contempt for the european citizens.

Sorry - don't want to make multiple posts so this is my version of a P Toynbee article - several headings - take your pick !!

The Tour de France will be on later, the sun's shining - our families are here - everyone enjoy today.

[Look at Brexit a different way]

WB - oh you do believe in living dangerously don't you !

FuzzyWuzzies - now there I think you might run into trouble under the new 'misappropriation of culture' which is a new one on me...but it's ben said so we all now have to be careful...sigh

Not sure the frizzies or lankies would work - that's discrimination against 50% of us - so that's another no-go.

If you look at some of the young people today they are now colouring their hair the most wonderful range of colours - red, blue, green, purple - all on the same head.

So we're going to have the rainbow-coloured frizzies or lankies.......uhmmm - an army of angry, rainbow coloured women frizzies and lankies on the march - strike terror into the heart of any eu kommisar who's banned our turbo-charged hairdryers.... there's a thought !

[Look at Brexit a different way]

Oh Lindal tell me about it... one of the joys of France.   When we first moved here we couldn't put the kettle on at the same time as the micrwave because the power dropped on both.   Quite funny now looking back, but oh dear was I glad we 'upped' our power supply.

Yes - the curly wurly cucumbers is funny;  but quite apart from the fact that they are grown hydropnically (clever girl !) - I think the producers are happy for them to be straight because it meant they could be packed neatly in boxes with the exact same numbers in each boxes (you sure there isn't an eu Diktat about that somewhere ?!!).

But with long, thick hair the idea of low powered hairdryers and tongs would be a problem for me - think I'm going to stock-pile 3 or 4 as a 'just in case'.   Lovely warm weather means I can wash and dry in the sun - but it's hopeless in the winter, and I do like to have a turbo-charged dryer.   Just one of the many niggles about the eu;  rather than 'banning' everything wouldn't it have been better to have no VAT on such items, or subsidise them and encourage their use - it's the 'ban this, that and everything else' that is just control-freakery....

Still with all the awful circumstances at the moment niggles about low or proper powered hair-dryers does seem trivial.

Out to enjoy the sun again (having washed hair and now to dry it !), and then a night-market with group of friends.

Hope everyone else has an enjoyable evening.

[Look at Brexit a different way]

@ Andy

You are obviously an extremely clever person, and thank you for the lesson in electrical engineering.

Why not just import those that do have the voltage switch;  according to american women there are many models that provide the 110/220 switch - so those are the ones to import surely ?  There are going to be a lot of very unhappy British, and european women at some time in the future when their hair-dryers aren't so effective.   A braod swathe of unhappy women - an army of women who take longer to dry their hair - on the march...........you really want that to happen !!!   Be afraid, be very afraid !!

Anyway, with what's happening in Turkey we really are living in interesting times - not sure I like this Chinese curse any more.

Enjoy the warmth, sunshine, family and friends today everyone.

[Look at Brexit a different way]

Listen you - if you had long hair you'd be very glad of the -existing-  powerful hairdryers.   The trouble is that the lower powered ones take longer to dry ones hair - so there is NO energy saving at all.  And that goes for vacuming as well - I'm sure you'll notice the difference in dust disappearance when you have to use a lower powered vac - you do do some vacuuming don't you ? !!

The reduction in power stuff really is a nonsense;  applieances will take longer to do the job - and there will be very, very little energy saved.

As China makes a lot of these, and as a lot are exported to USA - full powered zoom zoom super charged models - we'll just add orders for the UK on top of those from the USA.  Easy.

As for Mr JC - I do wonder whether he's just deliberately playing silly b---rs with us all.   As he had previously voted against his own Government on many ocasions, and had been a eurosceptic I did find it very strange that he took the 'remain' line - that really was a surprise and I felt it was a bit hypocritcal of him.

When he was first elected I thought he had agreed for his name to go forward as a joke, which then misfired, and he still can't actually believe he's the Leader of the Opposition.

His young supporters are making fools of themselves, fools of Mr Corbyn and fools of the Labour Party.   The UK needs strong opposition, a decent Labour Party - but we don't seem to have that now, which is very sad.

[Tour de France 2016]

I watch the TdF for the scenery, the overhead shots of the villages, and countryside - otherwise just a load of quite handsome strong sturdy legs flashing round and round....

But I have wondered about some of the 'fans', particularly on the hill climbs - some of them seem to be complete 'nutters'.   Also the British riders have been subjected to one or two nasty incidents in previous years, and I did wonder if there would be any signs of 'anti-British feeling - which happily doesn't seem to have happened.

When the TdF sped through this area last year - the heavens opened, and we couldn't see much for all the rain and spray - summer in southern France !!

[Great - now what???]

Why should the future of the UK depend on the personal situations of a very few people.    The eu is heading in a very non-democratic direction, and there are huge problems heading its way.

The Greeks have suffered greatly because of the euro;  50% of Greek doctors and surgeons have left Greece to go and work in Germany - that's a loss to the Greek citizens isn't it ?   The Polish government is desperate for the return of many of their citizens to help build up the country for future generations - shouldn't they do so ?

Those who have chosen to live and make their homes on a long-term basis in other european countries should maybe have become 'european' citizens rather than retain their home nationality.

We are talking only small numbers here.   There are 65 million UK citizens - and a large majority voted to leave the eu - for very many different reasons.

I share the concerns about Ms May;  although supposedly, some of her friends and colleagues are now saying that in reality she is eurosceptic I would not totally trust her (mind you I don't trust any of 'em).

I am pleased about David Davis - a man who should have been PM but was rejected because people were taken in by the smooth PR guy;  but Mr Davies has the right outlook - don't trust the eu elites and hope he looks out for the traps they will lay for the UK.

The news, comments, and press briefings from the US sound hopeful;  Mr O will be gone soon, there will be fresh people, fresh ideas in the White House, and that's reason for hope, because Mr O wasn't too keen on the 'special relationship' because of his personal background and history.

What is so 'wonderful' about being an eu citizen rather than a citizen of a country, any european country, that has its own history and culture ?   Why be so ashamed of your own country that you wish to deny it, and your previous generations and blood ties ?   I've worked and lived in Cornwall;  one of the most striking things about the Cornish people I worked with was a common thread of 'a Cornish person will, if at all possible, return home to Cornwall later in their life...regardless of where they have lived and worked previously, they all want to 'return home'.   Doesn't the same call of ties apply to one's own homeland ?

Please don't shout at me about this comment - but watching last nights tragic news I listened to M Hollande - he stood there and talked about 'strengthening borders'... - huh ?  in Schengen...?

The eu is a failed idea;  it is dated;  it was dreamed up in the 1920's and 30's, it is not fit for the 21st century with 27 countries;  the euro is a disaster and the big money men are looking ahead and talking about the real possibility that it will collapse - that it cannot function as it is.

Which brings me back to my main thoughts about the eu;  it was a wonderful idea, in the 1960s and 70s - (when it was limited to just 6 or 7 countries);  it would not be facing the problems now if it had remained at the 6 or 7 countries.    It does not work, it will not work in the future - unless there is far more concentration of power over every state by the Brussels lot - sovereign nation states handing over their democratic powers to unelected, unknown people.    It is not just UK citizens who find that extremely alarming.

There is now a different future for the UK - we have a proud history - and with the right people in charge it can be extremely successful.   We do not need the 'good will' of the eu lot, though it would be nice to suppose that they will behave in a civilised manner.   After all if the european countries start to penalise UK citizens living in a european country they need to remember that there are far more of their citizens living in the UK than UK citizens living in their country.  It's called 'repricitopy' (hope that's the right spelling !1) isn't it ?

Anyway, the sun's shining, it's time for a bit of quiet contemplation and family thoughts today, after last night's tragedy;  unbelievable - on the grounds of what...... what perversion of humanity can possibly carry out such acts - apparently a lot of young children had their lives cut short.....poor people, poor France.

[Great - now what???]

Believe it or not - yes I do feel we have 'lost' something, and in a way I am very sad about it...honestly.

The dream that was sold to us back in the 60's and 70's would have been fantastic;  if it had remained with the 6 or 7 stable countries with relatively similar standards of living and outlook, and wish for peace after WW2.

The trouble is that it didn't stay at that;  we've all been lied to;  the reaction of the eu elites to the democratic votes about the Lisbon Treaty, the Irish being told to 'go away and vote again' - the certainty that it will develop, as was always the plan, into one superstate, with its own army, foreign ambassador, etc etc - is deeply worrying.   Particularly when you realise that Turkey is being encouraged, that the North African countries are being encouraged - tell me where does 'europe' stop - where are the borders ?

It hurts to do this Brexit;  but I am far more concerned about the future direction of the eu - it seems out of control with power grabbing, everywhere....

If only it had stayed at 6 or 7;  maybe 'associate membership' for other countries that, in time, when the living standards would have been more equal, then possibly consideration to 'full membership'.

It's the dismissal of people's concerns, the concerns of nation states by the likes of Merkel, Juncker, Tusk that concern me;  who says that after them - there might not be even more arrogant, power-hungry - and dangerous - people ?

[Great - now what???]

It's going to depend very much on whether 'retrospective' applies or not;  personally I'd be very surprised if the eu/UK made rules 'retrospective' - it certainly wouldn't be in the interests of France to do so..

Just as a matter of interest - came across this today -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/14/europeans-are-intensely-emotional-about-free-movement-they-wont/

It is almost a grudging acceptance that because of the UK's 1000 year history of not being invaded, of not having close neighbours living over borders in different countries - that there are good, proven, psychological grounds for the UK's ambivalence about the eu.   They do explain the psychological national feeling;  that we made the break from Rome, that we have a constitution and a Bill of Rights coming from that break (and on which the American Constitution is based) and our common law (effectively UK citizens can do anything provided there is 'no lor agin it' (remember 'Just William'?); whereas the european countries, with more recent nation states and democracies are based on the 'you can't do anything unless there is a law that permits it' - in other words european citizens 'belong' to the state - and the state 'gives' them rights - which is totally at odds with the UK, and explains all sorts of reasons why there are huge differences - 1000 years of history - which cause problems.

The UK is now free, again, to decide it's own role in the world - and it seems the world is quite happy to welcome the UK with many countries already talking about wanting to arrange tade deals...

The future's bright, the future's ours - and if we don't like the decisions we can kick out those who have made them...............unlike at present.

[Great - now what???]

Excuse me - but it is you overlooking a very very important point.

It was that the possibility existed - it could easily have happened - you didn't know how the votes would turn out;  you couldn't guarantee the result.

It WAS a possibility - and it could have happened - and it would have been because of the eu and the echr....... and is the means for UK common law to be over-ridden by 'foreign powers'.

[Look at Brexit a different way]

OK - we've all had our 'what the heck' moans, groans, rants whatever.

On the other long thread there's been several undercurrents about -

pensions

health

childrens' future - freedom of movement

Look at all this a different way might help to change perspectives.

The 'freezing' of pensions to Commonwealth countries was a direct result of Heath and his 'give away everything' in an attempt to join the pretend 'common market'.   One of the terms for joining was to cut off all ties with our commonwealth - and that did include freezing of pensions.

Now a 'decent' (yeah I know !) - but a decent UK government, the minute we're out of this federalist nightmare, would be able - and would, importantly - have the freedom to pay all UK pensioners, wherever they live in the world - the UK pension to which they are rightly entitled.  It is ONLY the eu Rules & Diktats which is preventing that.   So there's one gain for those who live in Commonwealth countries.

Why anyone would think a UK government would freeze everyone's pension who does not live in the UK needs to look at all those other countries around the world where the UK pension IS uprated year after year.  

Health; fine - a UK government could easily say to ANY country 'we'll meet the health costs of our citizens - provided you meet the health costs of your citizens who are living and using the UK's health service'.   Simple ?  Fair ?

Young people - and closing their access to europe   for pity's sake.   What 'access' to europe ?    How many young people actually live and make their lives outside the UK ?  And are they really going to be prevented, en-masse, for being able to move freely around europe ?

Look at the ties we could have with Canada, NZ, Oz.   There is absolutely nothing to prevent any Government restoring those links, those ties - so that citizens from those Commonwealth countries would have the freedom to live in the UK - freedoms denied at the moment;  and for UK citizens to go and live and work in those countries - reciprical arrangements anyone ?

There are many, many changes ahead.   I'm sure young women drivers will appreciate the reduction in their car insurance (already being talked about);  they'll also appreciate using powerful hairdryers - and will continue to be able to use them;  back to useful, powerful vacuum cleaners again - and decent lightbulbs to see the dust by - with no dangerous mercury filled 'geen' lightbulbs.

Oh - were any of you aware that under the eu Fishing 'treaty' that UK fishermen can only fish up to 12 miles from the french coastline - whereas french, and all the others - have the right to fish up to the UK's 6 mile coastline - that's a lovely fair deal isn't it ?

There are very positive ways of looking at Brexit.   Uncertainty - certainly.   But it is the certainty of the future direction of the eu which should have been highlighted more, ever expanding, ever more controlling, harmonising etc etc, and which really is worrying.

As Churchill said - 'given the choice the UK will choose the wider world'....... and that is what the citizens of the UK have done, in a democratic vote.

[Great - now what???]

@ Cat

US House of Representatives Speaker Paul Ryan has called for the

US to start negotiating a new free trade deal with Britain to ‘show

solidarity’ and ensure a ‘smooth relationship’ post-Brexit.

Mr Ryan, the former Republican vice-presidential candidate and one

of the party’ s most senior politicians, said the UK was America’s

‘indispensable ally’ and needed to be helped after it parted ways

with the EU.

Along with a long list of 11 other countries - and counting - OK ?

[Great - now what???]

Here's a thought - if the 'experts' were so clever -

How is it that we had the financial crash ?

How is it that Greece was allowed to join the euro ?

How is it that there is huge youth unemployment throughout europe ?

How is it that we have the immigration/refugee crisis ?

Sir Stuart Rose (M&S) admitting to a HoC committee that if the UK did a Brexit 'that wages would have to rise' - there's an admission that because of over-supply of labour - employers have kept down wages - that was clever wasn't it ?

There is no such thing as 'experts' - just clever people who hoodwink by speaking confidently ....nothing more.

The experts are NOT experts as such;  they too have their own bias, their own views....

As for the 'people are stupid if they believed what the papers reported' -

My impression is that vast numbers of people had made up their own minds about the Project over quite a number of years;  they weren't influenced too much by 'the papers' - they had their own views, which might have been reinforced by 'the papers' - but not enough to persuade them to change their minds.

Maybe 40 years experience of the 'common market' (which was an excellent idea when restricted to 6 or 7 countries); but the morphing into this huge one-supra-national state is something which an increasing number of european citizens are becoming extremely unhappy about - not just UK citizens.    It's the small-minded interfering - as well as the big bullying of nation states that european citizens are concerned about.

As for what happens - who knows.   The UK government will do its best to ensure fair treatment for the UK; the eu lot will do what they can to be as difficult, and as intransigent as they can..........

But the rest of the world will also have a bearing on the outcome;  look at the nations - including the USA - already lining up to do trading agreements with the UK.   Look at multi-nats like Siemens which has confirmed it will remain, and continue to invest, in the UK.

Look at the threat to the eu from the freedoms that a UK Chancellor now has;  lowering of taxes, lowering Corporation tax etc etc.  

It is not just how the eu reacts when Article 50 is triggered;  it is how the rest of the world (trading blocs) reacts to the 'UK's open for business' - that will put a great deal of pressure on the eu not to be petty, vindictive or spiteful.

Possibly the eu will feel slightly on the back-foot during the negotiations - it's not just about the UK is it ?  It's trading, freely, with the whole world.

Will there be mass deportations - of course not - childish scare-mongering.    How many on here back-packed through Europe, and beyond, using visas ?   Were there any problems - nope, of course not.   European governments are reasonably civilised;  european citizens are reasonably civilised - it will all work out in the end, reasonably well for everyone.

Oh - and the stock markets are going back up, the £/Euro is going back up - things will balance out in time.

[Another side to 'free movement' -]

OK we' had the referendum;  we're having to listen to both sides complain and berate one another....

One of the big points to come out of this is all the talk about 'free movement' and how stopping it will be so terrible.

There IS another side to this which I've been thinking about today (mainly trigerred by watching the Somme Remembrance, and family and loss of life - so I'm in a philosophical mood - bear with me........)

'Free movement' is seen as one of the wonderful benefits of the eu.   But is it really, truly so ?   Think about this.   We do know that many schools in the UK are having to cope with increased numbers of non-English speaking children - some of whom more or less 'turn up at the school gate' needing places.

Here's the downside.   Those young children, because their parents want to 'make a better life' for themselves have moved to the UK.   They have uprooted themselves, and their children, away from grand-parents, aunts, uncles, cousins - their whole family network.   They've been removed from their family roots and connection; their history, their culture, the place that is their 'home'.

Leaving behind bereft grand-parents and others.   The children make a life for themselves, with their parents, in a different country - but they lose their ties to their homeland.   That is sad.   Look at what happened in Eire over the years from the potatoe famine onwards - large numbers of young people went to the UK, or to the USA - never to return to their homeland.   A large number weren't even able to make occasional visits to see their family.

Now that is a loss;  it's a break in family continuinity - and is sad.   I know the longer I live here, the more and more I'm missing daughters and grand-children.   Didn't matter for quite a while because we were having the adventure - but family ties do pull.

I wonder if the 'free movement' is wonderful for the young, no ties, no family, rolling stones to move on where and when they want.   But it is far more complex for families.  

Just a sideline on the 'free movement' - maybe it should be limited to the footloose and fancy free, no ties, no attachments.....

[Great - now what???]

There are many reasons for why some of us voted the way we did;  for some of us the reasons go back over quite long years, the lies from Heath, and his admission years later, being one of them.

My decision was in no way swayed by any publicity, any comments, any biased reports, over the last few months.   My views, and talking to many other people I know, were decided long before the appalling slanging match of the Referendum.

There are some interesting articles in Der Spiegel in the last day or two (I'm sorry I can't put links - this PC seems not to work that way and I can't do 'copy 'n paste' so I apologise);  some thoughtful journalists who seem to now accept that the eu, in its present, form is maybe not what a lot of europeans want.   One or two journos do seem to accept that because of the UK's entirely different history, free from Catholicism and Napoleon and any of the others - that due to those facts, the UK has a different law system and a different outlook.

It is those differences, and the mis-understandings from the europeans, that have led to where we are now.

I like europe, and the european citizens, I like the differences;  what is now being questioned is the loss of control of our own law-making - and that is also being questioned right throughout europe.

The euro has been a disaster for Greece, and Spain.  Any of you read any of the on-the-street articles about the way of life of ordinary Greek citizens - it is heart-breaking.   This has been caused by the eu elites - and is shameful that it is happening in a european country - one of 'ours'.

There is a great deal wrong with the eu as it is now set-up - a great deal wrong.  Had it remained at the 6 or 7 countries, with 'association' for other countries - it might have worked.   It was the whole 'rush to power and expansion' in too short a time, that has caused problems for all european citizens.

I do feel sorry that we are in this mess;  but the eu couldn't be allowed to continue in its present form which is causing problems right throughout europe and for european citizens.  It is wrong that the elites seem not to understand their own citizens.   It is sad - but probably necessary.

Wish I knew what the history books will write about this in 100 years time.

[Great - now what???]

Oh dear Ernie - you're living dangerously now.

I tried to give out similar facts - got accused of being a rascist - and of taking my facts from Facebook.

I couldn't be bothered to reply - had I done so -

I would have said that the facts - very similar to yours - were taken from a Telegraph article.

Also taken from eu statistics - but some people think if such an article is posted on Facebook - then that's where its been picked up - and it's all lies simply because it's on Facebook - weird and childish.

But all those incidents did happen.

You will not convince the losers, the little snowflakes, the anglo-phobic cult believers.  Still in a state of shock because the people have spoken.  

Interesting  article in the Guardian today as well;  looking at Swindon, the home of F1 engineering, and other high-tech firms, as well as Nationwide - and why the majority voted Brexit.   Not at all the 'uneducated blah blah rubbish insults' - but intelligent, educated, professional people - rather gives the lie to the usual losers comments about Brexit voters.   Do please read.

I'd better go now - or I shall be called something or other nasty and abusive again.

[Great - now what???]

Interesting article, with interesting stats - in today's FT;  sorry can't do a link but go and read.

'The Brexit contagion could consume the French elite'.

[The next target group will be pensioners]

It seems that some points on here are being based on how - financially - things are at the moment.   But we do not know how the world's economy is going to grow or not;  we do not know if the eu's economy is going to grow - or not;  we do not know what will happen to the UK's economy.

We do not know if interest rates will remain low - which is great for those who are buying a home on a mortgage;  house prices seem to be going down - which is good news, at the moment, for those who want to buy a home - the young ones.

Low interest rates hits savers - the young ones - but also those in middle years, and the retired who have no hope of being able to build up any savings - but are living on what they ahve managed to save whilst working.

We just have to make the best of how things are;  but we don't know if they are going to get better for the world, for the eu, for the UK - or worse.

Seems to me that a lot of nonsense is talked about 'growth' - and the need for increasing number of working people to support the elderly etc.

That is a Ponzi scheme - because looking at today's 20 and 30 year olds - what size population of younger working people are going to be needed when today's 20 and 30 year olds become the OAPs of the future.

Population growth - wherever in the world - is not sustainable - and any greenie or environmentalist knows this, deep in their hearts, even though a lot will not admit it.

And unplanned, unknowable population growth puts enormous strains on existing populations... which is where some of us have said enough is enough - and it is not fair to existing UK citizens - including immigrants - for there to be continued, increasing, unknowable population numbers.

---

I did wonder if someone would be kind enough to post the Monty Python - because it was beginning to feel like that.   But I do enjoy reading about other people's backgrounds, chances - or not - of education and enjoyable jobs.   Some on here have had difficult starts and made the most of their lives;  some have had extremely comfortable starts to their lives - and have continued to have enjoyable and comfortable lives.   Character making for some obviously.

Called life and stuff.

As for Brexit - please read some of the plans for the future of the eu - and think deeply about what the 'elites' really are planning.   It is not just in the UK that there are concerns - deep concerns about the future progress of the eu - some of the plans are disturbing unless you are happy to be a controlled little number person.  (I am NOT a number !!)

I am sorry that the initial dream of the Common Market disappeared;  it was a hopeful time for most of us;  but the 'elites' in their power hungry way destroyed a thriving community of 6 equally similar countries in history, culture, laws etc.    To see the dream diluted into 27 countries - and counting - really is un-natural - and does involve loss of culture and identity - all those things which have to be destroyed so that nations can be controlled.......  I am deeply pessimistic about the future of the large, ever-expanding eu;  it was not my dream - and has been destroyed.