Avoid becoming elderly and ill in France

[alittlebitfrench]

Avoid becoming elderly and ill in France.

That is ALBF advice for the day.

 

Jesus folks…..the system sucks….and very expensive too.

Two elderly French relatives have become ill (one very terminally..literally months). The process, the administration and everything else to get them all sorted in their final time is a nightmare.

France should be ashamed.

Just count on 4k per month to live out your years in an ephad. More if you need specialist care.

Im telling you.

Also, just hope there is someone to help you with the process.

Its….a nightmare.

They don’t tell you that in the magazines.

 

Edited May 16 by alittlebitfrench

[chessie]

And what else they don't tell you is - after the final curtain - the nightmare that comes when the state takes control of one's assets, home and savings..... Make out a UK will - forget it - the french will ignore it.   Have savings in joint names - forget it - the french insist that half of what should have gone to remaining spouse - is TAKEN and distributed according to napoleonic law - forget what financial needs the remaining spouse may have.   Sellone's home, owned jointly - forget it - the STATE will decide how half one's property is to be split up - and if property not sold in the time set out by napoleon then the property no longer belongs to remaining spouse - but is handed over to the kiddies.   And when one returns to the UK, and needs care - then the UK gvt will state that one has to pay for everything - but you can't because the safety net of owning one's own home has been taken from you - and handed over to the kiddies....... and one is LEFT WITH NOTHING - NO ASSETS, NO HOME - NOTHING.

 

DO NOT  DIE  IN FRANCE.  Whatever your marriage regime, whatever your Will -

the STATE WILL TAKE AND DIVIDE UP - with NO account of future financial needs of remaining - grieving - spouse.

[Judith]

Dear Chessie,

I know you have been though the mill, and I sympathise, and hope that you are beginning to come out of the nightmare now.

I've been trying to tell this to my OH for some time - a cancer diagnosis concentrates the mind particularly well - even when the outcome is as you'd hoped, and with your permission .. I'm going to take this on board.  And ALBF, your comments too make interesing reading .. I'm adding that to my pile of information too.

[CSCosford]

On 16/05/2024 at 15:08, alittlebitfrench said:

Avoid becoming elderly and ill in France.

That is ALBF advice for the day.

 

Jesus folks…..the system sucks….and very expensive too.

Two elderly French relatives have become ill (one very terminally..literally months). The process, the administration and everything else to get them all sorted in their final time is a nightmare.

France should be ashamed.

Just count on 4k per month to live out your years in an ephad. More if you need specialist care.

Im telling you.

Also, just hope there is someone to help you with the process.

Its….a nightmare.

They don’t tell you that in the magazines.

 

It might be worth noting that our son's FIL is paying £6540.00 PER MONTH for his wife who is in a special home for dementia/Alzheimer's patients. 

That figure is without "additonals" or "extras". The setting is attractive and she does have a pleasant room, but it is questionable whether he can afford these vast sums in the long run. Ephad seems reasonable in comparison. 

[menthe]

That's not just France though, is it?  Even years ago, a member of our family was paying more than that for a nursing (not merely residential) home.

[alittlebitfrench]

On 09/07/2024 at 16:24, CSCosford said:

It might be worth noting that our son's FIL is paying £6540.00 PER MONTH for his wife who is in a special home for dementia/Alzheimer's patients. 

That figure is without "additonals" or "extras". The setting is attractive and she does have a pleasant room, but it is questionable whether he can afford these vast sums in the long run. Ephad seems reasonable in comparison. 

I think the cost it is about the same when you factor wages.

The question really is…..do you (or rather your children) want to go through all this in a foreign country. It is not easy, and you will end up paying someone to sort all the administration out. And that is costly in itself.
 

It has been enlightening experience.

Me, a quick HA and that will be fine. 
 

Long term care…..no thks.

[NormanH]

I am elderly and ill in France and very well looked after in my own home by a Nurse who visits daily, a physiotherapist who comes twice a week, a home help (my Asstante de vie). I can have meals delivered and a hairdresser (if I had enough hair to bother). I sort out the admin myself 

Perhaps a look at this site may help:

https://www.pour-les-personnes-agees.gouv.fr/

[alittlebitfrench]

9 hours ago, NormanH said:

I am elderly and ill in France and very well looked after in my own home by a Nurse who visits daily, a physiotherapist who comes twice a week, a home help (my Asstante de vie). I can have meals delivered and a hairdresser (if I had enough hair to bother). I sort out the admin myself 

Perhaps a look at this site may help:

https://www.pour-les-personnes-agees.gouv.fr/

Well one of the persons in question died last week….and I must say a very horrible death. Poor lady. She was a good friend of mine.

From the point they were diagnosed with terminal cancer, they spent a good six months in an ehpad. That was between 5-6 k euros a month.

Now it is the turn of the funeral directors to fleece the body of as much cash as they can. Even though she had a funeral plan she managed not to check a vital box. And the plan does not cover all the costs. Check your plan carefully because someone will have to pay. I rekon a good 10k for the funeral.

So the cost of the whole affair (6 months) about 40-50 k I should imagine.

Now the government will get whatever money she has left with inheritance tax.

The second relative has dementia and is in a senioriale type flat near us so we can look after her. She pays 1000 euros a month. She needs to go an ehpad but can’t because she needs to be diagnosed first. The waiting time to be diagnosed is 8 months. So eventually she will go to an epad at 5 k a month. She is quite fit so she could last years.

Ooh I forget the car. The two sisters in question leased a car from Peugeot. There is still 3 years on the contract. The one who drove has just died and the one (the contract holder) cannot drive…obviously.

Peugeot are not interested in canceling the contract and taking the car back. So that is just collecting dust in a lock up garage the other side of France and the dementia patient is paying 300 euros each month for it. Obviously that would be better spent on her care.

vivre la France.

 

Edited July 24 by alittlebitfrench

[Lori]

Sad story.  I'm' sorry for the loss of your friend ALBF.  I didn't realize Ehpad's were so expensive.  Are they all that way and do all the residents pay similar annual fees ?

As to car leases, they are the same the world over.  READ the fine print folks.  The lease does not go away, even if you die.  Your estate (if you have one) or your next of kin will be expected to pay the remainder of the lease.  NEVER NEVER NEVER do it.

 

[NormanH]

So where  do you recommend being elderly and ill ?

[NormanH]

6 minutes ago, Lori said:

Sad story.  I'm' sorry for the loss of your friend ALBF.  I didn't realize Ehpad's were so expensive.  Are they all that way and do all the residents pay similar annual fees ?

As to car leases, they are the same the world over.  READ the fine print folks.  The lease does not go away, even if you die.  Your estate (if you have one) or your next of kin will be expected to pay the remainder of the lease.  NEVER NEVER NEVER do it.

 

This gives an overview of the prices etc ...as usual  a link to an official site is more useful than anecdotes  :https://www.pour-les-personnes-agees.gouv.fr/comprendre-les-prix-tarifs-et-prestations-affiches-dans-l-annuaire-des-ehpad

[alittlebitfrench]

30 minutes ago, Lori said:

Sad story.  I'm' sorry for the loss of your friend ALBF.  I didn't realize Ehpad's were so expensive.  Are they all that way and do all the residents pay similar annual fees ?

As to car leases, they are the same the world over.  READ the fine print folks.  The lease does not go away, even if you die.  Your estate (if you have one) or your next of kin will be expected to pay the remainder of the lease.  NEVER NEVER NEVER do it.

 

Thks Lori…she was Mrs ALBF Aunt who has always looked after me since moving to France. A truly lovers person.

Reference the car, the two Aunts have been a customer of Peugeot for 60 + years. Most of which has been from the same consessionaire.You would think they could make an effort.

Its dog eat dog out there.

[alittlebitfrench]

25 minutes ago, NormanH said:

This gives an overview of the prices etc ...as usual  a link to an official site is more useful than anecdotes  :https://www.pour-les-personnes-agees.gouv.fr/comprendre-les-prix-tarifs-et-prestations-affiches-dans-l-annuaire-des-ehpad

There is a website and there is reality.  The Aunt was transferred to Nantes from Bescanon when she fell ill. Then it was a case of finding an ehpad that could not only accommodate her (demand) but also her condition. This is not an easy job….. even for French relatives living in the country . For relatives living in the UK or elsewhere and trying to sort this out for their relatives living in France……will be a nightmare.

Remember this is palliative care…or turned into that.

[alittlebitfrench]

42 minutes ago, NormanH said:

So where  do you recommend being elderly and ill ?

Good question.

My advice for any foreign person living in France is to get your affairs in order so that others don’t have to deal with it. Life can turn on you quickly.

We (Albf and Mrs Albf) have to empty a 7th floor flat in Besancon (6 hours away from us) that involves 60 years of junk which includes a piano. 
 

A piano on the 7th floor with a lift that can only accommodate 2 people. How the hell do you deal with that ?

[menthe]

Norman, thank you for injecting a bit of sanity into the "woe is me", hand-wringing and do- not- be- elderly- and- ill narrative as though any of us can avoid getting old and, heaven forbid, be ill as well.

Indeed what else is more certain in life?

I know this is not the first time you have written about your experience and given that valuable website. 

Fortunately, neither of us has reached that stage yet though my husband is not anywhere near being out of the woods since he fell ill a couple of months ago.

The medical care he has received has been exemplary.

Just to give a few brief details which may reassure some people.  My OH had a very nasty and life-threatening seizure in early May.  Of course, it was a Saturday (don't these emergencies always happen at the weekend or in the middle of the night?) but still the pompiers came promptly.  His condition was stabilised in the ambulance and he was in hospital by the middle of the afternoon.

The next morning, a SUNDAY morning, he was operated on and moved to intensive care to be looked after.  Because he'd had internal bleeding, he received an infusion of iron and 2 units of packed red blood cells.  When he was moved into an "ordinary ward", he was invited to stay as another operation was envisaged.

Because he is elderly (93) and he was desperate to return home, the consultant respected his wishes and allowed him to come home for a couple of weeks before readmission for Stage 2 of the procedure.  It did cause the hospital inconvenience and I daresay extra cost to discharge and then readmit him but they could see that, for his peace of mind and relief of his anxiety, it was better that way.  Imagine, actually taking into consideration what the patience wants.....my mind did boggle greatly at that.

In the meantime, he had 2 operations for removal of a "mole" au cas ou and that indeed turned out to be a melanoma.  Those ops were done in out-patients, again with great care and the results were phoned through to us at home by the 2 dermatologists.

All this time, we have had nurses, daily to begin with, and now every 2 days.  Even after removal of stitches, the nurses made a further visit to satisfy themselves that the wound was properly healed.  They also come to the house to take blood for tests to avoid our having to go to the lab.

As he is still weak, losing weight and in convalescence, he is given drinks, biscuits, desserts that are high-protein and high-calories to build him up.

I have not yet had to get the sort of home help that Norman gets but I have been given advice as to where in town to go and the person to see.

I'll end by saying that when I myself get to be "elderly and ill", I'd rather be in that state in France than anywhere else I can think of.

 

[Lori]

3 hours ago, alittlebitfrench said:

A piano on the 7th floor with a lift that can only accommodate 2 people. How the hell do you deal with that ?

Disassemble / destroy the piano.

[Lori]

3 hours ago, NormanH said:

This gives an overview of the prices etc ...as usual  a link to an official site is more useful than anecdotes  :https://www.pour-les-personnes-agees.gouv.fr/comprendre-les-prix-tarifs-et-prestations-affiches-dans-l-annuaire-des-ehpad

That is quite detailed Norman.  I have saved it.  Thank you.

[NormanH]

3 minutes ago, Lori said:

Disassemble / destroy the piano.

One wonders how it got up there...IF it ever did ...

[NormanH]

2 minutes ago, Lori said:

That is quite detailed Norman.  I have saved it.  Thank you.

Thanks. As I have said before always look at links to official sources rather than wild rambling rants

[anotherbanana]

Getting bulky objects in and out or high flats is usually done using an external lift which takes the thing right to the road outside. Seen it done many times in Belgium.

[Lori]

21 minutes ago, anotherbanana said:

Getting bulky objects in and out or high flats is usually done using an external lift which takes the thing right to the road outside. Seen it done many times in Belgium.

Yes, I've seen that done in Paris many times.  However, I've been told it is quite expensive.  If no one wants the piano or there is no window large enough to haul it out of and onto an external lift (which would, of course, bring into question how it got there in the first place) or no one wants to pay for said removal, I'd go back to my original suggestion.  Dismantle it.

 

 

[DaveLister]

7 hours ago, alittlebitfrench said:

Check your plan carefully because someone will have to pay. I rekon a good 10k for the funeral.

My OH died 5 years ago. No funeral plan. The total cost including cremation came to a little over 2,400 euros.

[alittlebitfrench]

3 hours ago, NormanH said:

One wonders how it got up there...IF it ever did ...

In the 60’s people weren’t snowflakes and went up by the stairs. Idiot child.

[alittlebitfrench]

3 hours ago, Lori said:

Disassemble / destroy the piano.

Destroy it yes…believe me it is not in tune and never will be played again. But it is very heavy. So a good 10 trips in the lift…and then to a déchèterie. But this is the centre of Besancon. This is not a job for babies.
 

But by who ? There in lies our problem…..along with all the other furniture. It is not ikea furniture…..we are talking proper wood. 
 

Its a 20 k job to empty the flat. And that is up to us to sort out. Nô one else to help us.

[Lori]

If you don't want all the furniture can you donate to an organization who would come take it off your hands ?  We did that with 50% of our goods when we moved from Bédoin.  Took quite a few phone calls to find organizations that would come take it, but we did in the end.

** This was to give it all away, not to sell it.

Edited July 24 by Lori