Aspirations..................................

[Bugsy]

This is in no way meant to be a political comment, just a life and experience point.

You do have to wonder what Gordon Brown must be thinking when he sits quietly contemplating the last few months. His aspirations of becoming PM and the build-up to that, followed by the seemingly never ending attacks on anything he trys to do. In one of todays papers for example, is an article titled 'Gordon is a Moron'.

Try and put yourself in that situation, I know I would be seriously thinking 'what the B*****H*** have I done.

 

[Dick Smith]

BB - I'm a committed Labour supporter, and I find myself asking precisely the same question. What the BH has he done?

Like they say, it's a lot easier to lose a race than to win one.

[Hoddy]

What bothers me is the slowness of the response to the problem over the abolition of the 10p rate of income tax. It was clear from the budget onwards that some of the poorest people would have to take a pay cut while others benefitted. I knew that thanks to the reporting of my local radio station at the time.

Why didn't Gordon Brown ? Like Dick I'm usually a Labour supporter, now I don't know where to go.

At least I don't have to vote for a mayor in London.

Hoddy

Hoddy

[Benjamin]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]BB - I'm a committed Labour supporter, and I find myself asking precisely the same question. What the BH has he done?

Like they say, it's a lot easier to lose a race than to win one.

[/quote]

John Major didn't win the 1992 election, Neil Kinnock lost it.

Déjà vu?

[Gluestick]

In a week where an Australian trader in London, apparently called Troy, has refused to take £125 million basic pay as too little (!!!) and Government having sought to tax the poor who were actually bothering to work, and could not see how this was technically and morally wrong, and in the ten plus years that NuLab sprang to power, I don't see how any  lifelong Labour supporter could vote for the current gang of shambling incompetents!

Surely Socialism is about Wealth Redistribution, not favouring the rich over the poor? (Not that I agree with this necessarily, BTW).

The stark reality is that Godron has boasted for ten years about prudent financial management, whilst all the regulators have been asleep and now the wheels have come off and he can't blame the previous incumbent of Number 11!

He ought to, of course: every time each morning he looks at himself in the mirror to shave.

Tricky, really, when the music stops and there are no spare chairs.........................

Listening, for a wee while this morning to Call Me Dave being interviewed by Andrew Marr, until I was sickened by Dave's whittering nonsense and obvious lack of any cogent economic policies, this leaves only Vince Cable as the sole politician to have spoken with any clear vision, knowledge and authority on both taxation and the economy of recent.

And let's face it, who in their right mind could countenance voting for the mixed rag bag of lunatics which is the Lib Dems?

Well, I suppose it is said that a country receives the government it deserves..............................

 

[Russethouse]

The 10p tax debacle was bad enough (my daughter earns more than my son, yet she was better off and he was worse off - mad) but more concerning is the effect that having the two major parties fighting for the middle ground has on democracy.

Bring back Old Labour, give the electorate a real choice !

[Gluestick]

Frank Field for PM, Russet?

[:)]

[Russethouse]

After this weeks rumblings among the back bencher's I wonder how hard it would really be for Labour to start moving back to their core principals ? Perhaps there would be more support for such a move than people think - who knows? But I do think that the situation where there is only a cigarette paper between the parties, deprives the electorate of real choice......

[Hoddy]

Gluestick, I agree with all you say until the last line where you say we get the government we deserve. I really don't think I get the government I deserve. I have worked all my life, paid all my taxes and never fiddled a penny. I always use my vote, even in the local elections.

What else am I supposed to do ?

Hoddy

[Gluestick]

I can't remember who actually made that statement, Hoddy: may have been WSC.

I don't believe or agree for one minute that either you or I deserve it!

Unfortunately, since Thatcher's rise in 1979, the "Loads a Money" culture has become endemic to UK society: simultaneously, the great British public have become increasingly ill informed about politics and politicians; let alone, Current Affairs.

Which has led to initially electoral apathy and later, political fatigue.

Personally, I am anapolitical: and have been for many years: I have no faith in any of 'em, or their stated policies!

What is needed, IMHO is a political truce: when countries face serious strategic problems, such as war, politics is put on the back burner for the duration.

Britain urgently needs a Coalition, during which period it can sort out its urgent social and economic problems: for example, catching up this morning early on, I understand that 8 people are shot each and every day now in the UK! And this despite the vote harvesting tactic of the hand gun ban.

Unfortunately, politics has survived in the UK only because of the Quinquennial Act: any party mounting cogent and sensible economic policies, for example, wouldn't be relected. Thus nothing major can be actually achieved.

All Labour and Conservatives have done since the landslide election of Clement Atlee in 1945, is swing from one extreme to the other. For example, in the early days, road transport was nationalised, de-nationalised and re-nationalised, at huge economic and social cost.

Taxes, holistically, need complete and total reform, as the Adam Smith Institute keeps saying. Instead, successive parties "Tinker" around the edges.

As an example, Godron changed Corporation Tax and instituted a Zero Rate band for social clubs and start-up SMEs; and then cancelled it! Now we have the 10% band. And so on.

What sane person can countenance taxing people: and then having to hand them back a raft of benefits because they can't afford to live?

Double bureacractic cost.

My own view is that unless the UK takes hold of itself and sorts itself out it will become a sort of Third World state in Europe; collapsed infrastructure, health service, education and anarchy on the streets: and a banana republic to boot.

BLiar followed his Ghuru, Thatcher's example and as Tony Benn has said so often, cancelled Cabinet Government: which is effective political anarchy.

Most interestingly to me, West Germany functioned for many years as a coalition: and this was the era of its striking recovery and economic success; to the point where OECD reported that back in the late 80s, West Germany was outperforming Japan!

 

[Alex H]

[quote user="Gluestick"]

I understand that 8 people are shot each and every day now in the UK!

[/quote]

Source please?

Oh, and this one too please?

[quote user="Gluestick"]

In

a week where an Australian trader in London, apparently called Troy,

has refused to take £125 million basic pay as too little (!!!)

[/quote]

[Gluestick]

Guncrime: London Metro 25-04-08 (I've just resurrected it from the round file, AKA, B1N!

Cited are the recent Home Office report for England and Wales: a further report compiled by British Crime Survey.

Trader: City paper week ending April 25th.

Insofar as the trader is concerned, he apparently created £1 billion of profit last year and is now leaving to set up his own hedge fund or similar.

 

 

[Dick Smith]

Ah! The Metro - a free newspaper owned by the Daily Mail. Hardly a Journal of Record...

From the Home Office website:

Gun crime

Gun-related crime kills, maims and intimidates, and is

frequently linked to gang activity and the illegal drugs trade in the

UK. We are committed to tackling gun crime to ensure the safety and

security of all British citizens.

A snapshot of gun crime

Contrary

to public perception, the overall level of gun crime in England and

Wales is very low – less than 0.5% of all crime recorded by the police.

Facts & figures

• The number of overall offences involving firearms fell by 13% in 2006/07 compared to the previous year. 
• Firearms were involved in 566 serious or fatal injuries in 2006/07, compared to 645 the previous year - a drop of 12%.
• The number of armed robberies involving guns dropped by 3%
• There were 13% fewer serious and fatal injuries related to gun crimes in 2006/07.
• The number of reported crimes involving imitation guns dropped by 15% in 2006/07.
• The number of reported crimes involving air guns dropped by 15% in 2006/07 over 2005/06.

(Source: Crime in England and Wales 2006/07; Homicide, Firearm Offences and Intimate Violence 2006-07.)

So there were, in fact, about 11 gun-related injuries per week, not all of which involved a fatality. Not the 3000 a year that the Metro reports. Too many by far, but not the Beirut scenario the Daily Wail would have you believe.

What was the 'City' paper? I can find no references to this/

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]BB - I'm a committed Labour supporter[/quote]

Can we get the rest of them committed as well? [:D] [6]

[just john]

Joseph de Maistre stated that “Toute nation a le gouvernement qu’elle merite.”
(“Every country has the government it deserves”), Lettres et Opuscules Inedits, (1851)

I would suggest that the unfettered social state started with Wilson, unions et al heralding the decline of work ethic in Britain in my lifetime, Maggie tried to remedy some of it until the poll tax debacle did for her, downhill eversince, whoever gets in will find a bill from  public private finance. waiting for them, not to mention pensions. Labour = Spend & Bust. Tin hat on [8-|]

[Dick Smith]

[quote user="Albert the InfoGipsy"]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]BB - I'm a committed Labour supporter[/quote]

Can we get the rest of them committed as well? [:D] [6]

[/quote]

Yeah, well, it's comments like that that keep the level of debate to the lowest common denominator, isn't it?

[Dick Smith]

[quote user="now just john "]

Joseph de Maistre stated that “Toute nation a le gouvernement qu’elle merite.”

(“Every country has the government it deserves”), Lettres et Opuscules Inedits, (1851)

I would suggest that the unfettered social state started with Wilson, unions et al heralding the decline of work ethic in Britain in my lifetime, Maggie tried to remedy some of it until the poll tax debacle did for her, downhill eversince, whoever gets in will find a bill from  public private finance. waiting for them, not to mention pensions. Labour = Spend & Bust. Tin hat on [8-|]

[/quote]

But John, there is a lot of cause to say that society in general wants the government to spend freely on some things - look at all the polls which showed a public willingness to accept tax rises to spend more on the NHS and, to a lesser extent, education and defence.

The entire Welfare State project was embraced by the nation not on any grounds of cost, but because it meant that the less fortunate/weaker members of society would get a share of the goods (in the Socratic sense).

Not everyone sees society as a profit and loss account.

[cassis]

[quote user="now just john "]

Joseph de Maistre stated that “Toute nation a le gouvernement qu’elle merite.”

(“Every country has the government it deserves”), Lettres et Opuscules Inedits, (1851)

[/quote]

He may have said it, but that does not make it true. There have been many mad, barbaric dictators and oppressive loonies who have governed/overrun countries by force.  [;-)]

[Dick Smith]

I think you have to hedge it round with caveats about properly functioning democracies, proportional representation, wide political base, in which case it has an ironic, or figurative, truth.

[just john]

[quote user="Dick Smith"][quote user="now just john "]

Joseph de Maistre stated that “Toute nation a le gouvernement qu’elle merite.”
(“Every country has the government it deserves”), Lettres et Opuscules Inedits, (1851)

I would suggest that the unfettered social state started with Wilson, unions et al heralding the decline of work ethic in Britain in my lifetime, Maggie tried to remedy some of it until the poll tax debacle did for her, downhill eversince, whoever gets in will find a bill from  public private finance. waiting for them, not to mention pensions. Labour = Spend & Bust. Tin hat on [8-|]

[/quote]

But John, there is a lot of cause to say that society in general wants the government to spend freely on some things - look at all the polls which showed a public willingness to accept tax rises to spend more on the NHS and, to a lesser extent, education and defence.
The entire Welfare State project was embraced by the nation not on any grounds of cost, but because it meant that the less fortunate/weaker members of society would get a share of the goods (in the Socratic sense).
Not everyone sees society as a profit and loss account.
[/quote]

I agree with much of what has been said on both sides, I support the Social state, the key word is unfettered. The purse is not bottomless and depends on a work ethic sadly missing in many key areas of recipients.
I have recently been close to the NHS and listened to Consultants, doctors and nurses hysterical laughing at the waste of money in the wrong areas for one example. The real cost is yet to be understood.
Who wants to do the work ethic one?

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]Ah! The Metro - a free newspaper owned by the Daily Mail. Hardly a Journal of Record...[/quote]

2. Recorded crimes involving firearms

Peter Kaiza

• Firearm crimes involving any type of injury fell by 19 per cent in 2006/07 from 5,004 in

2005/06 to 4,065 in 2006/07.

 

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs08/hosb0308.pdf

 

Your Cited Source!

 

Now, according to my maths, 4,065 divided by 365 = 11.1369

 

Lies, damned lies and statistics?

 

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

[quote user="Dick Smith"][quote user="Albert the InfoGipsy"]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]BB - I'm a committed Labour supporter[/quote]

Can we get the rest of them committed as well? [:D] [6]

[/quote]

Yeah, well, it's comments like that that keep the level of debate to the lowest common denominator, isn't it?
[/quote]

Why is it, Dick, that you can make jokes at other people's expense but you get all wound up at a bit of teasing?

Quite honestly I believe that the main classifications of labour supporters nowadays are:

Traditionalists, mostly in the industrial heartlands, who keep hoping that the party will go back to its roots

Opportunists, mostly what used to be called yuppies, who realise that much of New Labour policy is to the right of  Dave's Tories.

I can't see the traditionalists getting any joy unless/until there are major socioeconomic upheavals. If Labour were to go back to the agendas of the 60's & 70's as things are then they'd lose the support of the opportunists and be out of power for a generation.

In my opinion the reason that turnout gets lower at every election is that it is becoming harder and harder to see any real differences between the major parties and nobody has the courage to try things like voting for the Greens.

 

[Dick Smith]

Teasing I don't mind, Albert. But the OP asked for a serious debate. Possibly some intelligent comments.

And there is a difference between teasing and insulting. Oh, and in case you forgot, Labour supporters won the last 3 elections.

[Gluestick]

However, of course, if Labour had have invoked PR as promised in their 1997 manifesto, then they would have lost after 1997.

Which is pretty illustrative of how confused and dispirited the British electorate are right now: as more than one poster has stated in this thread.

 

[Dick Smith]

No. Your comic claimed that 8 people a day were shot. That is 2900 a year - shot. Which is not borne out by the figures. The official statistics state that there were c500 injuries in gun-related crimes, and roughly one fatality a week, not the 8 a day you were suggesting. Far too many, but not enough to provoke the hysteria of your post.

Not every gun related crime involved someone being shot. Half of all gun-related crimes involved airguns. This is what the figures say:

SUMMARY

 

• Firearms (excluding air weapons) were reported to have been used in 9,650 recorded crimes

in 2006/07. This was a 13 per cent decrease over the previous year, following a slight

increase of 0.2 per cent in the previous year. The overall number of firearm offences

(including air weapons) fell by 14 per cent: from 21,527 in 2005/06 to 18,489 in 2006/07.

• Air weapons were reported to have been used in 8,839 recorded crimes, a decrease of 15

per cent compared to 2005/06.

• There were 2,517 offences in which the weapon was classified as an imitation in 2006/07, a

23 per cent decrease compared to 2005/06. Handgun offences were down by 11 per cent to

4,175 in 2006/07.

• Serious or fatal injury accounted for three per cent of all firearm crimes in 2006/07. There

were 566 such injuries (including 59 fatalities) resulting from crimes that involved a firearm

(including air weapons), 12 per cent fewer than in 2005/06.

• Firearm crimes involving any type of injury fell by 19 per cent in 2006/07 from 5,004 in

2005/06 to 4,065 in 2006/07. There was a 23 per cent decrease in the number of offences

involving handguns causing injury in 2006/07, following a 30 per cent increase in the previous

year.

• Weapons (excluding air weapons) were fired in 40 per cent of firearm crimes. Handguns were

fired in 12 per cent of the offences where they were involved, and shotguns in 38 per cent.

• The number of firearm robberies fell by three per cent in 2006/07, having risen by ten per

cent in the previous year. Thirty-seven per cent of these were committed in public highways,

the number of which increased by one per cent from 1,439 in 2005/06 to 1,457 in 2006/07. 

• Twenty-eight per cent of victims of firearm related offences (excluding air weapons) in

2006/07 were aged between 30 and 49 followed by 21 to 29 year olds who were victims in 22

per cent of the crimes. Persons aged less than five and over 69 years were victims in 0.2 and

one per cent of the crimes respectively. 

• Fifty-five per cent of all firearm offences (excluding air weapons) in 2006/07 occurred in just

three police authorities: Metropolitan, Greater Manchester and West Midlands.

• Overall, firearms (including air weapons) were used in 0.3 per cent of all recorded crimes, or

one in every 300. This proportion is halved when air weapons are excluded.

 

 

- now that isn't quite as bad as you were suggesting, was it? And who is manipulating the statistics?