powerdesal Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 I have just been involved in a 'discussion' (argument) regarding the value of low energy lightbulbs and the recent UK press reports on the withdrawal from sale of conventional incandescent bulbs over time. This is, I think also likely to happen in France (or is already happening).The figures quoted state that low energy bulbs use 20% of the electricity, the remaining 80% being 'wasted energy'. This 'waste' is heat energy.If you have 3 x 60w of conventional lighting in your sitting room (not an unusual amount), ie 180w then your 'new' demand will be 36w, saving 144w of energy, but.......that 144w of heat energy was contributing to the maintenance of the room temperature, therefore you will have to increase the heat input to the room by 144w to keep the status quo.If the heat input is by electricity you save sweet FA on your leccy bill but have paid out lots more for the new bulbs, A losing situation.If your heating is by oil then you are losing even more.Discuss..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Thanks, Steve, and here I am putting up with dim lighting and sometimes lights that go off because the low-energy bulbs have "stems" that do not quite fit our UK lamps and thinking it's all worthwhile because I'm saving the planet.............OK, no more obssessing........I'll just put on and leave on all the lights I wanna and live in an overlighted gin palace, yeah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suein56 Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 [quote user="sweet 17"].......I'll just put on and leave on all the lights I wanna and live in an overlighted gin palace, yeah![/quote]An overlighted, but WARM gin palace! Go for it.Sue [:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 WARM, did you say WARM, as in NOT cold?Well then, I'm your girl. Forgotten what WARM feels like and would like to be reminded! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted January 18, 2009 Author Share Posted January 18, 2009 [quote user="sweet 17"]WARM, did you say WARM, as in NOT cold?Well then, I'm your girl. Forgotten what WARM feels like and would like to be reminded![/quote]Here's a reminder...........WARM is when you are sitting at the computer in just a pair of shorts with the AC fan running in the background (just on fan, not actually cooling !!!!!) [:P] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pommier Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 [quote user="powerdesal"] you save sweet FA on your leccy bill but have paid out lots more for the new bulbs, [/quote]Tho not necessarily lots more for the bulbs - in the UK a week ago we bought low energy bulbs from Dunelm Mills at a price of 5 for £1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suein56 Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 [quote user="sweet 17"]WARM, did you say WARM, as in NOT cold?Well then, I'm your girl. Forgotten what WARM feels like and would like to be reminded![/quote][:)] [:)]I wouldn't know; we live in a rented house with feeble 'convecteurs électriques' and once the sun goes down - we are south-facing with 2 sets of patio doors - then we wear lots of layers!Mind you we were out to dinner last night chez nos voisins and they have an insert; which is wonderful in that the side facing the fire is beautifully warm but the other side can become a tad chilly!Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Given up trying to keep warm. How about the following:Huge woodburner in sitting roomBois charbon oven in kitchen2 poêles à petrole, one in the hall and one in the sitting roomelectric convector heaters in the bedroomselectric oil filled radiators in the bathroomsone of those Mexican cheminee log burners in the outdoors sitting area (stopped short of a patio heater because they are so...................o "ungreen"Wear 2 pairs of socks, thermal vest, brushed cotton pyjamas and take 3 hotwater bottles into bed (plus husband)WARM, nah, not at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 I read these bulbs contain murcury and if you break one you are advsed not to hoover it up as it disperses it and you breath it in .....supposed to go out of the room for 10 minutes ...then sweep the bits up.....Cannot be but in the bin when they pack up ..special re cycle process required . No wonder people are buying up all the incansescent ones while they are still available ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil & Pat Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Steve,What was the counter-argument? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoddy Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Steve, my other half has been trying to make this argument for the last few months now and cannot get anyone to take him seriously. Even 'Which?' didn't want to know.Hoddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 If I could find a 100w bulb anywhere I'd buy the lot - I hate this rather dim light that has to warm up just like old TVs' [:@] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suein56 Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 [quote user="sweet 17"]Wear 2 pairs of socks, thermal vest, brushed cotton pyjamas and take 3 hotwater bottles into bed (plus husband)[/quote]Sounds just like home to me ...Sue [:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 Steve,What was the counter-argument?The usual 'closed-mind' attitude of 'everyone agrees they are helping to reduce Co2 and our 'carbon footprint' and a blanket refusal to even consider the reality of what I was saying. There was even a brief ' the Govt wouldn't be making the change in law if it didn't work' !!!!!!!!!!The mind boggles [:@] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thebiga Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Sweet 17, Is the problem with the french bulbs that they do not screw in all the way to make the connection. I have had this with some bedside lights and pendant ones to. I found that if you take off the plastic screw part of your fitting which holds the shade in position and cut this back asmall amount then they go further in and fit just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 [quote user="Frederick"]I read these bulbs contain Mercury and if you break one you are advised not to hoover it up as it disperses it and you breath it in .....supposed to go out of the room for 10 minutes ...then sweep the bits up.....Cannot be put in the bin when they pack up ..special re cycle process required . No wonder people are buying up all the incandescent ones while they are still available ...[/quote]Funny enough I saw something about this a few nights ago on TV. It appears that after the Twin Towers or Ground Zero (as the Americans prefer to call it) the quantity of people suffering and even dying of Mercury poisoning rose dramatically amongst those that were there. This is attributed to the large quantity of fluorescent tubes that were broken when the towers collapsed. There is also concern amongst environmentalists about the dispersal sites for the rubble and Mercury seeping in to the food chain.You can find information on this by googling "Mercury poisoning after Ground Zero".I must admit that in the past I have just thrown the things in the bin but I won't anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 [quote user="powerdesal"]Steve,What was the counter-argument?The usual 'closed-mind' attitude of 'everyone agrees they are helping to reduce Co2 and our 'carbon footprint' and a blanket refusal to even consider the reality of what I was saying. There was even a brief ' the Govt wouldn't be making the change in law if it didn't work' !!!!!!!!!!The mind boggles [:@][/quote]In terms of engineering and science of course, Steve you are absolutley correct.Heat from any source counts as "Heat In" to an environment.I well remember visiting for the first and only time an intensive pig farming unit in Ireland on a project. The cost of energy then had risen rapidly (A bit like now) and I was concerned on the heating cost: it was November and the atmosphere apart from smelling foul was hot, humid and unpleasant."How do you heat this unit?" I asked the client, a charming and lovely Irish guy."Pig sorh!" he responded!One only has to consider, for example, offices with huge banks of PCs and screens. The combined heat output of the PCs means less heat input during cold times for the building: and greater pressure in the AC part of the environmental conditioning when ambient temp is higher.Indeed, the current move is to low power consumption displays and PCs: and even backwards to dumb terminal emulators! ('Cos they consume far less energy and create far less heat).Large office buildings are designed these days with full consideration for heat loss (of course) and more importantly, heat input from all sources: human occupants; equipment; lights (even fluorescents give off heat as do any electrical appliances, including LED bulbs and Energy Saving bulbs).Of course this reality would have nothing to do with the push for low Energy Lightbulbs now would it?http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1111560/Labour-peer-set-make-fortune-eco-bulbs-2-4m-shares-Britains-biggest-lamp-recycler.html[Www]At this moment, the public just accept whatever lies and tosh is talked about Carbon Footprints, Global Warming without any consideration for the true science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Good to see you back GS.You are not supposed to use the term "global warming" any more, "climate change" is preferred now that we are now cooling, towards the next ice age, as we have always been apart from a recent tiny (but profitable for many) fluctuation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 [quote user="Thebiga"]Sweet 17, Is the problem with the french bulbs that they do not screw in all the way to make the connection. I have had this with some bedside lights and pendant ones to. I found that if you take off the plastic screw part of your fitting which holds the shade in position and cut this back asmall amount then they go further in and fit just fine.[/quote]As far as I remember, these are low-energy bulbs that I brought over with me from the UK. I don't think the stems are quite like those of "normal" bulbs.I have 2 lamps where the bulbs go off and on but several others that work fine. The French bulbs (and lamps) seem to be mostly screw rather than bayonet types and they work OK.But thanks for the suggestion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianagain Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Many (but not all) lights are located in either heated or airconditioned living spaces. Some of their wasted energy then adds to the warmth of that living space. If this waste heat is reduced by low energy lighting the temperature has to bemaintained by adding or extracting heat by other means; the so called Heat Replacement Effect. As heating your living space is far more efficiently provided by a central heating system there is still a net saving in energy consumption when heating is required in the colder months and a gross saving in energy consumption when central heating / cooling is not required. However in those parts of the world where air conditioning is the norm surely the opposite effect is true. The airconditioning system has to work harder to combat the extra heat generated by incandescent lighting. Therefore there exists increased energy consumption for both lighting and cooling.As for the daily mail, any excuse to knock the EU or the government...Brian (again) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 [quote user="suein56"][quote user="sweet 17"] Wear 2 pairs of socks, thermal vest, brushed cotton pyjamas and take 3 hotwater bottles into bed (plus husband)[/quote]Sounds just like home to me ...Sue [:)][/quote]Sue, I bet the Estate Agent assured you that the Morbihan enjoyed a "micro-climate"?The times Estate Agents have told us that when we were househunting, you'd think there isn't a single place in all of France that didn't have its own "micro-climate" endowing the chosen with more sunshine and less rain than everyone else.Having said that, I did think that the southern part of Morbihan (around the Gulf) enjoyed some of the warming effects of the Gulf Stream?Mind you, the Charentes are also said to have the most sunshine in France after the Med. Well, you could have fooled me!Looking out of the window at this moment, I would have said that we needed all the normal high-energy bulbs we could lay our hands on.[6] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 [quote user="brianagain"]Many (but not all) lights are located in either heated or airconditioned living spaces. Some of their wasted energy then adds to the warmth of that living space. If this waste heat is reduced by low energy lighting the temperature has to bemaintained by adding or extracting heat by other means; the so called Heat Replacement Effect. Thats what I said [:P]As heating your living space is far more efficiently provided by a central heating system there is still a net saving in energy consumption when heating is required in the colder months and a gross saving in energy consumption when central heating / cooling is not required. As to the first part, not necessarily true, type of CH fuel (ie cost) is a factor. As to the second part, lighting requirements also diminish considerably in the lighter periods of the year when CH (or aircon) is not required. Savings in this period may (or may not) compensate for the additional costs incurred during the heating period.However in those parts of the world where air conditioning is the norm surely the opposite effect is true. The airconditioning system has to work harder to combat the extra heat generated by incandescent lighting. Therefore there exists increased energy consumption for both lighting and cooling. Totally agree, use low energy bulbs in the Middle east and incandescents in EuropeAs for the daily mail, any excuse to knock the EU or the government... I must have missed something in the posts, where did the Daily Mail come in.....?Brian (again) [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyh4 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 [quote user="brianagain"] As heating your living space is far more efficiently provided by a central heating system there is still a net saving in energy consumption when heating is required in the colder months Brian (again)[/quote] Brian I thought heat was heat. I would agree that a light bulb may not be the most cost effective way to heat, but once the heat is there....... I do agree however about summer and cooling - whatever summer is. Anyone remember? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suein56 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 [quote user="sweet 17"]Having said that, I did think that the southern part of Morbihan (around the Gulf) enjoyed some of the warming effects of the Gulf Stream?[/quote]It probably does but not today as we have just had a flash-by hail storm; and now the sky looks very dark and threatening and the wind ... oohhh ....[quote user="sweet 17"]Looking out of the window at this moment, I would have said that we needed all the normal high-energy bulbs we could lay our hands on.[/quote][:)] [:)] [:)]Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gluestick Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 [quote user="brianagain"]Many (but not all) lights are located in either heated or airconditioned living spaces. Some of their wasted energy then adds to the warmth of that living space. If this waste heat is reduced by low energy lighting the temperature has to be maintained by adding or extracting heat by other means; the so called Heat Replacement Effect. As heating your living space is far more efficiently provided by a central heating system there is still a net saving in energy consumption when heating is required in the colder months and a gross saving in energy consumption when central heating / cooling is not required. However in those parts of the world where air conditioning is the norm surely the opposite effect is true. The airconditioning system has to work harder to combat the extra heat generated by incandescent lighting. Therefore there exists increased energy consumption for both lighting and cooling.As for the daily mail, any excuse to knock the EU or the government...Brian (again)[/quote]Most light sources in houses tend to be located high up.If one considers wet CH using radiators (which a majority of homes now employ) and as heat rises, light bulbs will heat the highest areas of any room.This is one of the core problems in wet CH heating: when your room is at a nice temp, try mounting a step ladder and breathing just under the ceiling!Adding to top layer heat will cause the CH system to cycle less frequently. Theoretically.The problem with heating systems is system inertia: in order to add small amounts of heat eneergy into a house, e.g., the system is very wasteful: particularly with condensing boilers since they are only efficient when running for some time.In any case, low energy lightbulbs are not very efficient: I am trying two out right now in my office where I am writing this. I have swopped two 60 W incandescent lamps for two allegedly "Similar" light output 11W jobs: they are useless!In the corridor, I am trying out a 14 W lamp in replacement for one 100 w bulb: it is useless!Offices use arrays of fluorescents of 80 watts -ish - in luminaires to achieve acceptable light output: even more in factories and workshops. Much heat and much energy.Additionally, there is the matter of the carbon cost of manufacturing a more complex device: and perhaps worse, its human health consequences: mercury is very toxic indeed.As always, it seems, instead of going the extra mile and opting for (e.g.) high output LEDs which enjoy excellent life cycle, produce less heat and can emulate an incandescent bulb in direct light output, Government in their excitement, have made the wrong choice.What human society needs is a total system approach towards energy and living environments, not half-hearted "We must be seen to be doing something by the voters!" political expediency aided and abetted by commercial opportunism.Good research into cost and energy efficient light sources would produce much better living and working environments.Government Knee Jerks driven by the slavering environmentalists won't hack it, I'm afraid.Finally:[quote]As for the daily mail, any excuse to knock the EU or the government...[/quote]The Mail simply happened to be a convenient source for this factual story.Look at the questions tabled by Lord Porky Lawson. in 2007.....................http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200607/minutes/071009/ldordpap.htmI don't need the Mail or indeed any biased newspaper for ammunition to criticise the idiot government or the equally idiotic EU!And with what is going on with both the Eurozone and UK economies, neither does anyone else who can think, surely?[6] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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