Post officer bans non English speakers

[Marym2]

On TV this morning was a post officer who is now banning Non English speakers from his post office, not only do I find that a bit over the top, but I do not think that I have ever been banned fron a shop for not speaking French, have you?

http://www.lankanewspapers.com/news/2009/3/41141_space.html

Yes that is a point russethouse, but as my french is not too good I have not been banned from any shops.

[Russethouse]

Let's add a pertinent fact to the story, the Post officer in this store is an immigrant himself. !

[Gluestick]

Just heard the chap operating the Post Office in Nottingham on Radio Four's TWAO.

Interestingly, his "English" is pretty fractured to say the least!

That said, his comments about fellow migrants not bothering to learn the language and integrate very much chimed with me.

I admire and commend his stand; his core point being that if putative customer cannot explain to him what they actually need, then this holds up and annoys his other customers.

Yet another example of how Government's vast waste of resources in printing advisory leaflets in umpteen languages and dialects as part of their "Diversity Strategy" has failed and in fact added to integration problems.

Now, I can just imagine France emulating Britain's misbegotten example................................

[Www]

[Russethouse]

 I wonder if you would feel the same if you were a young woman who had been bought up in India or Pakistan (for example) and encouraged to marry some fellow who had lived his life in the UK and then had come here to live with him, probably/possibly several months pregnant, to be faced with having a baby in a foriegn country and without  information available in any language you understood.

It could be life threatening for mother and child.....

 

[woolybanana]

No English, no entry. Simple as that

 

[Russethouse]

And if the  French took that on board ...no French no entry ?

 

[woolybanana]

Gotcha RH, I knew you'd say that. Well, I do reckon that there should be a language qualification for residence, but of course in the EU it wouldn't be possible as there is free movement. However, for the floods and hordes waiting to overwhelm the Septic Isle, a language qualification, job, PhD and return ticket might be conditions for entry!!

Seriously though, there has to be a language test and none of this translation nonsense.

[Russethouse]

It's the counsel of perfection though - there are still women in the UK who speak little English: they have been here many years, came when the rules were more lax and stayed very much within their own communities - one friend took it turn with his brother and sister to stay with their mother 24/7 when she had a stroke, luckily she recovered, but how frightening to be ill and further disenfranchised by a lack of language.

Many immigrants came here to take jobs that others didn't want or perhaps where there wasn't enough local labour available, they pay their taxes etc too

 

 

[Gluestick]

One notes, RH, that last year Government stated as part of its 'fessing up process, that by printing critical documents in many languages and dialects, they had not helped immigrants at all: indeed, they admitted they had hindered them.

Now personally, I do not know how anyone can drive, work and live day-to-day, if they cannot read, comprehend and speak the language of their adopted home.

Unless you are suggesting, perhaps, that in future, all road signs ought properly also to be posted in the same variety of language that government leaflets have been!

Road signs in Britain are already in total confusion: and far too many.

Every day my office receives telephone calls from people speaking the most appalling mangled "English" which it proves totally impossible to understand.

Sales calls I cut off very quickly: however by the very nature of much of my professional work I am compelled to deal with a range of bureaucrats.

Whose language skills are simply not up to the job they are supposed to do: let alone their technical knowledge, since lacking English language skills ( i.e. reading, writing and comprehension) it is totally impossible for them to actually learn their department's set processes and rules.

In hospital, the mis-comprehension of critical pharamacological data is already killing people: as are badly scribbled reports and misread treatment regimens.

However in the paradise of old England and measured against the number exterminated by the Mid Staffordshire NHS Trust I suppose that pales into a certain insignificance......................

[quote]

Many immigrants came here to take jobs that others didn't want or perhaps where there wasn't enough local labour available, they pay their taxes etc too[/quote]

Apart from the early migrants in the 1950s, recruited originally to work on (Mainly) London's buses and tubes system, I'm afraid, RH that I must disagree with this statement.

Current analysis demonstrates that the UK has been a net loser, when total costs (Health, Education, Housing etc) are taken into account.

Further, the impact on education resources has caused indiginous children to become disadvantaged: same comment reference the NHS.

http://www.migrationwatchuk.com/faqs.asp

 

[Russethouse]

 You know Gluestick, I'm not going to bandy surveys and figures with you because stats can be used to prove virtually anything, but I know of women who have been in the positions I mention, both had basic English language skills only.

As I commented to Woolly, yes in an ideal world all immigrants would speak good English, but the fact is for many, esp some women who live very much with other immigrants, that isn't the case, we are still in a situation where for health care particularly having information available in a language the immigrant understands well is key. If we want immigrants to have their children vaccinated for example, we need to ensure the information is effectively delivered, this is to all our benefit isn't it ?

You may have been many things GS, but as far as I know you have never given birth, or been a sick elderly lady.......

[Patf]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

And if the  French took that on board ...no French no entry ?

 

[/quote]

In the two or three french Post Offices that I use you have to speak french or you wouldn't get served. None of the clerks speak english (or any other language as far as I know.)

You have to prepare first with a dictionary, if you're not a french speaker.

[Chancer]

Where I live you either speak French or go hungry, it is by far the best way of learning as a hungry man will either find a way to eat or will starve. I can honestly say that in 4 years only two people have ever spoken English to me.

One in my very early days was one of the lady doctors who seeing me return for the 4th time confused by the simple instructions to find the testing clinic opposite decided to try her luck in my language.

Th second was a jeune actif from the paris region who asked me if I would prefer to speak in English or French (I chose French).

There is actually one other option and that is to move to one of the English ghetto villages and follow the lead of the other non French speakers and use the same insurance agent, bank, notaire etc. During my time in this region my French has gone from being virtually non existant (far less at the time than a lot of the other English) to, even if I say it myself, pretty damned good whereas I cannot detect the least improvement in the others.

I have only met two other English people who speaks good conversational French, they both live with French partners and came here before the advent of Sky Tv.

[Thibault]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

 You know Gluestick, I'm not going to bandy surveys and figures with you because stats can be used to prove virtually anything, but I know of women who have been in the positions I mention, both had basic English language skills only

[/quote]

 

There is considerable evidence to support the view that it is the husbands of these women who prevent them learning English - when there was a lot of government money available to teach English to immigrant families, it was almost impossible to get these ladies to the classes because of resistence by their husbands.  It seemed to be related to the view that if they could not participate in wider activities due to not speaking English, they would not be influenced by a "corrupt" Western culture.

[Gluestick]

Sorry to be cynical, RH, however when I was hospitalised for two weeks in 2007, it was impossible for me to not make a comparison with my only previous experience as an "In Patient" in 1991.

As a "Consumer" (of one of the allegedly better Trusts!) my experience shows undoubtedly that standards have dropped disastrously.

And the level and quality of the English spoken by many of the staff, could only lead to confusion: and potential mis-prescription, amongst other problems.

Yes, the instances you cite are potentially harrowing: however, must British society be expected to make continual and costly provision for migrants who do not firstly concern themselves about putative language barriers prior to migrating? At the expense of those who for many years have paid for the systems and services?

Surely, the time to commence studying the native language of one's target domain, is well before leaving one's home country?

A convenient analogy might be for extant pensioners (of both private and corporate schemes), to be expected to willingly take significant cuts in their pension, in order to accommodate feckless individuals who joined the scheme only a few years prior to retirement, but are to paid pari passu with those who have contributed for forty years.

I personally feel the Sri Lankan Post Master is to be commended in his stand, since he has, apparently, made every effort to both learn reasonable English and integrate: as he stated to the press, yesterday.

Conversely, if his stand is to be criticised, then his and others efforts and volition for integration and English language skills can be deemed unecessary.

Which then makes a total nonsense of Government stated policy on multiculturalism.

And worse, actively encourages the "Ghetto" mentality and social division on ethnic parameters.

 

[5-element]

Are you a fluent French speaker, Gluestick?

[Sunday Driver]

He seems to know some Latin - will that do?

 

 

[Gluestick]

[quote user="5-element"]Are you a fluent French speaker, Gluestick?[/quote]

I get along OK.

Will have to live in France for a number of years to attain any reasonable degree of conversational ability.

I can communicate sucessfully with doctors, pharmacists, plumbers, electricians and staff in Bricolages.

However, quite what this has to do with post offices in Nottingham I cannot see.

The Latin phrase, SD is of course a common business finance expression, as I am sure you would know from your own commercial background: that said I was fortunate enough to attend a Grammar School which included both Greek and Latin in its syllabus all those many years ago.

For which I remain eternally grateful.

 

 

[Russethouse]

Yet another example of how Government's vast waste of resources in printing advisory leaflets in umpteen languages and dialects as part of their "Diversity Strategy" has failed and in fact added to integration problems.

You bought it up !

[odile]

This is certainly no the case for Leicester, where immigrants have brought a huge amount of knowledge and experience- and pay vast amounts of taxes and provide much employment. A great example to all.

[Russethouse]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/7956570.stm

The postmaster in question has left his job......

[woolybanana]

How horrible for him. What a bunch of sleazes his employers are. How sad for Britain.

[Quillan]

If we take all the political correctness away for a minute I think one sentence he said says it all "I am part of a service but how can I serve them if I don't understand what they are asking for?".

There is of course a difference between people trying to speak a language and those that can't as opposed to those that can speak it fluently. If a person tries then people make an effort to understand. If a person asked you for a stamp in Polish would you understand, probably not, I wouldn't. When I don't know the right word I, like many others here I suspect, look it up in the dictionary, write it down and take it with me and if they don't understand my pronunciation I shove the bit of paper under their nose.

Likewise I also understand what RH is saying about these poor women coming across to the UK just about to drop a baby, can't speak a word of English, something goes wrong and they can't communicate. Then and again I understand from somebody who has worked in UK hospitals that they call a translator in to help where they can. They are normally contract translators and charge the NHS anywhere up to £200 per hour including travel. Of course this charge is absorbed by the hospital and not passed on to the patient.

The idea of a basic English literacy test for those coming to England is not so bad but in fairness if France did this when I came to live here I would have been but straight back on the boat and sent home. Perhaps a more logical way is to have to take the test say 12 months after arrival.

[Frederick]

   I regulaly take Asian patients to and from Hospital..and most women do not speak English ...Every time where a woman is patient even if she speaks English she must be still be accompanied by members of her family ....Unlike the rest of the female population of Hampshire and Dorset who get to travel alone with me .. special provision has to be made for them to take escorts ....It appears they cant possibly be allowed alone in a car with a white man even one drawing his O.A.P...In 16 years I dont think I have ever had an Asian woman travel alone with me ..Gives the planners extra work ...

[Gluestick]

[quote user="odile"]This is certainly no the case for Leicester, where immigrants have brought a huge amount of knowledge and experience- and pay vast amounts of taxes and provide much employment. A great example to all.
[/quote]

I would be grateful, Odile, if you could kindly explain an apparent anomoly.

The City of Leicester presents with the highest demographic of Social Deprivation in Northamptonshire, Leicestershire and Rutland. And, at index 31, amongst the most deprived places in the United Kingdom.

Yet you assert that "immigrants have brought a huge amount of knowledge and experience- and pay vast amounts of taxes and provide much employment"

The immigrant population is now circa 40% of total: indeed, many electoral wards have predominant immigrant population.

Leicester City:

Job Seeker's Allowance Claimants Jan 2009:

"White":         5,225

"Non-White" 4,680

i.e. 77% of Total

http://www.lsr-online.org/reports/categories/Unemployment+Bulletins

Table 1 – Index of Multiple Deprivation for each of our Local Authorities

Authority	2003 Mid Year Estimate (2003) (000s)	Projection 2010 (000s)	% Ethnic Minority (2001)	Population Density (persons/sq km)	*IMD 2004 England(1 = most deprived)
Leicester UA	283.9	282.7	36.1	3834	31

* IMD = Index of Multiple Deprivation for Local Authorities Ranked in England.
1 = most deprived – 354 least deprived
(Source: EMPHO Health Inequalities Reports)