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Multi-lingual UK- at what cost?


tegwini

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"A couple of years ago I was working in Ealing and all the notice's in and around the Town hall were displayed in a dozen languages, this is an enormous cost to the local rates payers."

Enormous cost????

The English ratepayers get the notices in their language.  Why shouldn't the immigrant ratepayers be entitled to the notices in their language?

 

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The UK governments cost of translation services in 2006 are as follows.:

NHS Trusts £55M

Local Councils £25M

Police £21M

Courts System £10.3M

Immigration Services £8.5M

Sources.: BBC, Home Office, The Times.

One can only assume its gone up a bit in the last 6 years by what I don't know as I can't find the figures but we could make a conservative guess at say 10% which takes the total from £119.8M to about £132M. Freelance translators charged The London Hospital £75 per hour or part off including travel, agency translators cost about 30% more. There is also the annual cost of vetting of each translator before they can visit the hospitals which is paid for by the state. These figures exclude the cost of documentation and printing of books, bills leaflets etc for which I can't find anything other than for the Hampshire NHS Trust which allegedly spend a further £1M on these items in 2008, Surrey spend around £680k in the same period. When you consider that people are denied life extending drugs because the NHS Trusts can't afford them it does make you wonder.

 

 

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[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

"A couple of years ago I was working in Ealing and all the notice's in and around the Town hall were displayed in a dozen languages, this is an enormous cost to the local rates payers."

Enormous cost????

The English ratepayers get the notices in their language.  Why shouldn't the immigrant ratepayers be entitled to the notices in their language?

[/quote]

I take your point SD but then on the other hand why don't the French give English speakers in France free translators in areas where it is known there are large English speaking communities. I mean its not as if we don't contribute to the county tax wise etc is it. The same could be said of many other EU (and even none EU) countries.

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[quote user="velcorin"]

Tegwini, you may wish to start praying that you never need any for of public services when you are in France, you are in for the surprise of your life, and a very large dose of shattered illusions. Hopefully, you'll never find out for yourself what Cooperlola is talking about. Most of the services you take for granted, but so decry, simply don't exist here. Watch the French TV news, and read the papers, don't let some lazy DM/BBC journalist spoonfeed you myths about France.

[/quote]

I truly cannot see anything anti-French in the above post by Velcorin. He is only describing  a state of affairs. Have you ever tried to find a leaflet in English translation here? They just don't exist. Everything is written in French. I even heard (with my own ears) some French people complain last month, about a poster advertising a Christmas service IN ENGLISH. "But we are in France, everything should be in French"....

Furthermore - I wish to make it known that I am not married to Velcorin, and that we have probably never met.[:P]

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[quote user="velcorin"]

GBP55 million, that's nearly as much as I'm paying for fresh flowers for Carla every day, are you sure that's all?

Mmmm, my calculators had a bit of a fit, but if the NHS budget is about GBP90 billion, that's about 0.0006%.

[/quote]

Yes I know but there is an old saying "Look after the pennies and the pounds look after themselves".

Added.

Or look at it this way it would pay for around 5,500 angioplasty operations, 6,800 hip replacements or something we talked about last year 758,700 cervical cancer smear tests, or 137,500 mammograms, or it would have exactly paid for all the bowel and prostrate cancer scans carried out in the UK between 2008 and 2009. Its not a percentage that counts its what you could do to benefit others with the money.

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[quote user="Quillan"][quote user="velcorin"]

GBP55 million, that's nearly as much as I'm paying for fresh flowers for Carla every day, are you sure that's all?

Mmmm, my calculators had a bit of a fit, but if the NHS budget is about GBP90 billion, that's about 0.0006%.

[/quote]

Yes I know but there is an old saying "Look after the pennies and the pounds look after themselves".

Added.

Or look at it this way it would pay for around 5,500 angioplasty operations, 6,800 hip replacements or something we talked about last year 758,700 cervical cancer smear tests, or 137,500 mammograms, or it would have exactly paid for all the bowel and prostrate cancer scans carried out in the UK between 2008 and 2009. Its not a percentage that counts its what you could do to benefit others with the money.

[/quote]

Correct!  But 55m is a lot really.

Salisbury District Hospital

serves 1.25 m people and we still have many in-patient wards which are 

pre-WW2 vintage - flat roofed and impractical.   Patients are wheeled

to surgery etc some even crossing a road!!

Some of that 55 M

could do away with these wards, and some other hospital could also

benefit.  And this is for one year only- huge improvements could take

place every year.

Tegwini

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Or 10 people could be brain damaged due to a medical error, caused by language mistakes. Lifetime care, GBP 5.5million, either paid for by the State, or by compensation obtained via the Courts from the NHS. Someone has to pick up the bill. Net gain zero.

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[quote user="velcorin"]

Or 10 people could be brain damaged due to a medical error, caused by language mistakes. Lifetime care, GBP 5.5million, either paid for by the State, or by compensation obtained via the Courts from the NHS. Someone has to pick up the bill. Net gain zero.

[/quote]

Since France (and most other countries) does not offer such a service then presumably France has  loads of errors, costs, compensation   etc ...?

Tegwini

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Yes. The the State picks up the cost, rather than the heathcare system paying compensation, though ministerial statements suggest this may change in the near future, and compensation will be paid by insurance companies, with the premiums loaded onto mutuelles.
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[quote user="velcorin"]

As someone married to a foreigner I remain eternally grateful to the NHS when dealing with a serious condition my wife developed when we lived in the UK.

She has 2 degrees, English from Brest, and Spanish from Rennes, taught English in France, French in the UK, but there is no way she could have coped with the vocab, when talking to a doctor, which an English speaker would take for granted. She would have died, but for the translation services offered. Maybe the skyhigh French hospital dead rates would be helped by a similar service[I]

Tegwini, you may wish to start praying that you never need any for of public services when you are in France, you are in for the surprise of your life, and a very large dose of shattered illusions. Hopefully, you'll never find out for yourself what Cooperlola is talking about. Most of the services you take for granted, but so decry, simply don't exist here. Watch the French TV news, and read the papers, don't let some lazy DM/BBC journalist spoonfeed you myths about France.[/quote]

I wonder why you presume I read the DM ?

My post

started when I discovered on line I could have access to 17 different

languages.  And this was to make an initial appointment.  No doubt a

waiting list will follow - also not DM,  as  I was on one a few years

back for 5 months for planter fasciitis,  which was hard to cope with

in my profession.   Waiting lists still exist and are a result of a lack of funding.

 

And since I still pay UK  tax it is my right to criticise the NHS, or other government 'services' if I choose to. 

Tegwini

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Absolutely agreed as a Uk taxpayer criticise to your heart's content. However please be aware, you will get exactly the same critical analysis from French people and media of their health system, and services.

On a more positive note we how have 4 French nephews and neices, who have moved to the UK in last 6 months for work, and they have nothing but the utmost praise, for the NHS, and other services, compared to their experience of the French equivalents.

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[quote user="velcorin"]

Absolutely agreed as a Uk taxpayer criticise to your heart's content. However please be aware, you will get exactly the same critical analysis from French people and media of their health system, and services.

[/quote]

As does my French friends till I tell them about there being 8 or more people of mixed sex in the same room/ward. The fact that they only have two toilets and one shower between them because the rest are broken or are so dirty nobody in their right mind would use them. Or that another is so full of foil, spoons and needles because the guy in the corner (who incidentally goes out to the pup every night to 'score') uses it to 'shoot up' twice a day its not safe to use. Or that because they may be sued by the cleaners the walls are not washed below waist level and covered in dry blood or that there are no clean sheets for the beds so you get second hand ones. I saw this at first hand in Newham General Hospital after being admitted there after a heart attack. Nor can they understand why it takes 40 minutes for an ambulance to travel 2km. Not to mention the poor old fella in the bed next to me who was taken to have his bowel removed and it was only when they had him on the table that the surgeon, thankfully, checked the guys wrist band for himself did he discovered he was just about to remove the bowels of a perfectly healthy bloke who was in fact supposed to be sent home that day. Their reply is that they don't want that sort of quality of service in their hospitals thank you very much and that perhaps they didn't have much to moan about after all.

Personally I find the health service in my region excellent and having spent time in a major private London hospital would put it on a par. I can walk in to a dentist and get seen immediately most of the time although the longest I have had to wait is 24 hours. Call the doctor in the morning and see him in the afternoon. My wife walked of the street with a consultants letter and had an MRI scan within 30 minutes. You get all this for 1/7th of the price that you pay per capita in the UK (source -World Health Organisation). There is however one major problem with the French health service and thats eye tests, nobody should have to wait 5 months to get their eyes tested as I am having to do, still I guess I can live with that considering the excellence of the other services.

I specifically moved to France because it is the best healthcare provider in the world where as the UK ranks only 18th (source - World Health Organisation) and I am extremely happy with how much I pay and the service I get. It has never let me down in 9 years and I might add that I am not in the best of health, I require regular 'maintenance' and regular treatment. I know the cotistations are expensive but its still cheaper than paying for NI and BUPA which I had to do in the UK.

[quote user="velcorin"]

On a more positive note we how have 4 French nephews and nieces, who have moved to the UK in last 6 months for work, and they have nothing but the utmost praise, for the NHS, and other services, compared to their experience of the French equivalents.

[/quote]

Where about have they moved to in the UK, just as a matter of interest.

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If the UK had had a half decent immigration policy then (non EU) immigrants would either have had to demonstrate an ability in English (to secure an offer of employment) or have a reasonable level of resources / personal wealth / sponsorship (so they could pay for their own translation services).  If I am traveling abroad and have a serious accident then I am on my own unless I or my insurance provider can provide a translator.

In an emergency situation, diagnosis and treatment will be based on clinical assessment and bloods / scans / x-rays. Very little will be based on discussion with the patient - who may well be unconscious.  Planned care may require a language ability - but why should that be at the cost of the tax payer?  If it's a planned situation (pregnancy) then they should have 'plans' to deal with the language barrier. In any case, communication with medical staff  doesn't need fluency - a basic competence and a dictionary is enough - we have done it.  As an aside, I also believe access to the NHS should be based on contribution and not residence.

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[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

"A couple of years ago I was working in Ealing and all the notice's in and around the Town hall were displayed in a dozen languages, this is an enormous cost to the local rates payers."

Enormous cost????

The English ratepayers get the notices in their language.  Why shouldn't the immigrant ratepayers be entitled to the notices in their language?

 

[/quote]

It doesn't take the brain of Einstein to work out that  this amount of money; how ever much or little, would be better spent in other areas, rather than on politically correct agendas. The English ratepayers live in their home country and expect it in their native language, or is that too simple for you to understand. As do the French and any other nationality in their own country.

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[quote user="Quillan"][quote user="velcorin"]

[/quote]

 Or that because they may be sued by the cleaners the walls are not washed below waist level and covered in dry blood [quote user="velcorin"]

.

[/quote]

[/quote]

I agree with all that you said Q but am a bit confused by the above, are the cleaners likely to sue the NHS if they have to bend down to do their job or is it something to do with the old gag about dropping your hat and having to kick it home [6]

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The English ratepayers live in their home country and expect it in their native language, or is that too simple for you to understand. As do the French and any other nationality in their own country.

 Well if was only the English that paid rates we'd be a merry pickle - many of the people labelled here as immigrants are in fact British, or their husbands and children are.... I suspect its women who are particularly disadvantaged here as older women followed their culture and didn't go out and get jobs or put themselves in situations where learning English was going to happen naturally so there are older ladies with poor language skills.

There are also younger women the subject of arranged marriages who also have language issues.Yes, to the smart **** who said if its pregnancy they have nine months to sort it out, no they do not, there are important examinations, scans and sometimes tests in the months leading up to birth and we need to engage with women at this point or there is the potential for more problems later. As it is only too often a young immigrant mother turns up in maternity in advanced labour with no previous 'history' as she hasn't attended prenatal care - that just makes it difficult for everyone.

  A Polish worker could legally bring his wife or mother here, what if they don't speak English ? - Or is this really a way of being racist and just dressing it up ?

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[quote user="Russethouse"]

  A Polish worker could legally bring his wife or mother here, what if they don't speak English ? - Or is this really a way of being racist and just dressing it up ?

[/quote]

Then surely the onus should be on them to learn English, nothing racist about it and it would improve their life and opportuities no end.

I went to see my medecin today, he speaks some English and hence is used by many if not all of the English in the area, my reason for using him is not the language but that he is dynamic, I like and I can identify with him.

Today he told me what a pleasure it is to see me as unlike all the others we only speak in French and he can concentrate on what he is qualified and wants to do, - being a doctor.

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Then surely the onus should be on them to learn English, nothing racist about it and it would improve their life and opportuities no end.

Frankly many Poles are coming for fairly short periods of time and may not feel its adds much, and as has been proved here many times, it takes a long time to feel confident enough to speak to a Doctor and misunderstandings can be costly.....

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I'm disappointed with you RH as you have quoted me out of context 

"The English ratepayers live in their home country and expect it in their native language, or is that too simple for you to understand. As do the French and any other nationality in their own country."

The post is an answer to an earlier question, and not  a statement as you present it. The discussion was about the use of translators in England. So I will repeat myself for you as you obviously missed the earlier posts. When we go to the rates office in France the forms are only in French, and although my French is not wonderful, it's no problem, as the people there are very patient and helpful, I believe because we try.  But they do not have multi language forms or instructions in English of how to pay. As for your cheap shot about racism well I think you are out of order

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[quote user="Russethouse"]

Then surely the onus should be on them to learn English, nothing racist about it and it would improve their life and opportuities no end.

Frankly many Poles are coming for fairly short periods of time and may not feel its adds much, and as has been proved here many times, it takes a long time to feel confident enough to speak to a Doctor and misunderstandings can be costly.....

[/quote]

Ok but then why don't they do what many Brits in France do which is use a translator which you pay for yourself or get a friend who does speak French to go with you.

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