HMRC seems determined to screw expats

[Will]

Thanks.

That makes more sense, putting it in context.

[cooperlola]

As a former hard working middle Englander myself, Gluey, I am perfectly happy to support those less well off than myself through taxes and social contributions, and have always been so.  I never moaned about the vast gap between my gross and net salaries - I have always felt this to be the price of civilisaion and compassion. If it had been otherwise, I would not have chosen France as the optimum country to move to! OK, wooly liberal (I prefer socialist/leftie//red/commie as it happens) I may be but at least I believe in fairness even if I don't know how to make the world fair for everyone - hence I never got into politics.  I wish I had had the courage - it is not a job I would want nor are politicians to be envied, imo, they have a truly cr*p job to do and most of them deserve more respect than they are usually given.

Nice to see you back, btw - good to have a nice, informed and inteligent little spat again.  JE.[:)]

[Gluestick]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

As a former hard working middle Englander myself, Gluey, I am perfectly happy to support those less well off than myself through taxes and social contributions, and have always been so.[/quote]

I'm sure a majority of us are, JE: with perhaps the exception of the truly venal, self-absorbed misers!

Unfortunately, however, one only has to examine socio-economic and fiscal histories, to fairly quickly realise that the much vaunted "redistribution of wealth" ethos has invariably and repeatedly since Clem Atlee's abortion of a government from 1945 until 1951 and thereafter simply not really happened.

Current stats on child, old age and general poverty and deprivation have been soaring in Britain: mainly since the massive increases in NuLab's tax revenues and insane government borrowing, have been totally wasted on vainglorious Ivory Tower schemes; and perhaps worst of all, on self-administration: the already top-heavy bureacracy inherited in 1997 was thereafter expanded at lunatic speed.

[quote]I never moaned about the vast gap between my gross and net salaries - I have always felt this to be the price of civilisaion and compassion.[/quote]

Oh that Great Britain was civilised( No state is ever of course: cultured, perhaps but never "Civilised"): oh that it demonstrated effective compassion!

[quote] If it had been otherwise, I would not have chosen France as the optimum country to move to![/quote]

IMHO, France not only talks the talk, but walks the walk: which is precisely why it now enjoys the best public health service in the Western world, the best roads and rails services in Europe: and all the rest. Additionally, whilst cotisations are indeed high, at least eventual retirement pensions et al have some relevance to the current cost of living.

As distinct from UK where since Thatcher's wondrous greedy interference NIC has gone stratospheric: particularly on the employer's side: and Class IV NIC (Self Employed, on declared Adjusted Net Profit) has gone up and up: and the payer has no benefits for this NIC grab: it is purely and simply tax on having the sheer temerity to be self employed, create employment and contribute to GDP: how dare we I wonder at times.

As a point of interest, for example, the French Health Service enjoys a far greater ratio of qualified staff (Doctors, Consultants, Specialists) to patients than Britain: and those health workers (Can't remember their title) who are beneath fully qualified Infirmiers are also manditorily qualified also. Unlike the rafts of unqualified minimum wage earning HCAs in Blighty.

Yet at the point of delivery, the French service costs less than the NHS!

[quote] OK, wooly liberal (I prefer socialist/leftie//red/commie as it happens) I may be[/quote]

Some of my best friends are Commies!

And, furthermore, I'll have you know, when Marx first fled from Germany owing to his politics, one of his colleagues in London was a German Tailor from Thuringia, called Johann Georg Eccarious: who set up, with Marx, the first International Working Men's Association, one of the precursors to the Communist Party.

And Red Fred, as I call him, just happens to be my dear lady wife's Great Great Uncle (Paternal Side) and we are researching the family history and dear old  Johann right now!

[:D]

 [quote]but at least I believe in fairness even if I don't know how to make the world fair for everyone - hence I never got into politics.[/quote]

It's called Social Conscience, JE: and I quite agree with the ethos, of course.

[quote]Nice to see you back, btw - good to have a nice, informed and inteligent little spat again.  JE.[:)]

[/quote]

Thanks for the kind and much valued words, JE.

Nothing like a good spat to massage one's piles on a Friday morning , eh!

[:)]

[Bugsy]

[quote user="Gluestick"]Nothing like a good spat to massage one's piles on a Friday morning , eh!

[:)]

[/quote]

Sorry to interupt but that comment conjures up a picture I'd rather not imagine [:-))]

[:P][:D][:D]

.

[Will]

Gluey, have you ever experienced being self-employed in France (particularly prior to the autoentrepreneur regime bringing things into the 20th century [;-)] )? Or looked at the real costs and deficits, not to mention the bureaucracy behind, the French sécu? Or even experienced some of the more antiquated and less shiny aspects of healthcare in France?

I'm not knocking France per se; merely reminding that some of us have rather different opinions, and feel that singling out any one nation, as so many do on this forum when criticising Britain, is not really fair when so many of the perceived probems are global in nature rather than national.

It has often been said that France is a great country in which to be retired, but a frustrating place to earn a living and gain fair rewards for hard work and enterprise. I thiink there is a lot of truth there.

My dear wife's paternal great-great uncle ran off with his dairymaid and drank himself into oblivion, but that doesn't qualify me to be an adulterer or an alcoholic, I hope [:D]

[Quillan]

You don't think this 'knocking' of France and/or the UK has anything to do with the fact that the forum is used by mainly English with a few French and even fewer people from other countries? [;-)]

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Will"]

Gluey, have you ever experienced being self-employed in France (particularly prior to the autoentrepreneur regime bringing things into the 20th century [;-)] )? Or looked at the real costs and deficits, not to mention the bureaucracy behind, the French sécu? Or even experienced some of the more antiquated and less shiny aspects of healthcare in France?[/quote]

Other than advising clients on a cross-border basis, Will, not personally: and I wouldn't wish to! I totally accept and agree that the French system mitigates heavily against anyone wanting to become self-employed: except masochists perhaps! [:)]

That said, what truly astounded me was a fully segemented market analysis of EU business stats I had to prepare a few years back for our software company (Business Plan- Marketing Plan/Strategy): the twelve core (original) states all presented with almost identical stats to UK on self-employment; i.e. numerically: and in contribution to GDP and employment. SMEs' in UK create circa 47% of private sector employment and nearly 50% of private sector GDP: and the vast majority are either micro-enterprises or class size zero. i.e sole traders or employ one or two only. Similar acrosss the core EU states.

So, if it's really so bad in France, then why do so many bother?

Health Service: France does fall very short when a patient changes from treatable to terminal: there is little, if any respite care; unless one pays for it.

I base this on my recent experience of my very dear friend, whom we lost last May: he had battled cancer for over 7 years and the service and treatment given in France was awesome round after round of chemo- so many scans his head span: until he became terminal...............

Heh! Nothing's perfect, however as a recent consumer of the NHS at a reasonable serious level, today it is awful.

It is very good, however, at providing groggy patients with a form and a clipboard, where jobsworths seek to compile statistics "proving" how well the latest government-led insanity is doing![Www]

I act as a sort of almoner for one association I belong to: and much of my time now has to be spent liasing between people who need urgent medical intervention and are simply being messed around by NHS hospitals, so we arranging for private treatment and aftercare: indeed, I must go to visit another friend, early next week who is dying: after total lack of apposite diagnosis and intervention by a large and major NHS trust.

We are now hoping to get him home and provide assistance to his wife with daily care and support and some respite and R & R for her, too.

[quote]I'm not knocking France per se; merely reminding that some of us have rather different opinions, and feel that singling out any one nation, as so many do on this forum when criticising Britain, is not really fair when so many of the perceived probems are global in nature rather than national.[/quote]

Roads; Rail; etc.

Nuff said.

[quote]It has often been said that France is a great country in which to be retired, but a frustrating place to earn a living and gain fair rewards for hard work and enterprise. I thiink there is a lot of truth there.[/quote]

Agree.

[quote]My dear wife's paternal great-great uncle ran off with his dairymaid and drank himself into oblivion, but that doesn't qualify me to be an adulterer or an alcoholic, I hope [:D]

[/quote]

Careful! Alchoholism is in the genes, so they say! Watch yer wife with the gin bottle!

[:P]

P.S. I am in fact studying Marx's writings and philosophy anyway, currently, for a literary project: heavy going but absorbing and interesting.

 

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Quillan"]You don't think this 'knocking' of France and/or the UK has anything to do with the fact that the forum is used by mainly English with a few French and even fewer people from other countries? [;-)][/quote]

Personally, Q, I'm not at all interested in "Knocking" anything: rather, comparitive analysis.

And the core matter was government tax take: and where and how it is spent: and more critically, has the concept of Wealth Redistribution actually worked?

I would posit it has worked to a degree in France.

Thereafter, I say again:

Roads.

Rail.

e.g.

Cost: Usability.

 

[Quillan]

I think personally that health care in either country seems to be 'post code' orientated. Some forum members have not received good care in France and better care in the UK whilst others have had the opposite, its swings and roundabouts.

In our region/area of France the health care is very good. We lost a friend to cancer in France and my mother-in-law to it in the UK. The quality of service in the UK (Newham) was terrible compared to that received by our friend in France. Likewise the service of care I also received in Newham for my heart condition (although the cardiac care unit was very good its the rest when you got out in to a normal ward) and my Asthma was no where near as good as I get where I live now.

On the other hand I can't walk in off the street and get my eyes tested, I made an appointment just before Christmas and have to wait till May. The other side is that my local town seems to be the centre of the world to dentistry and I can walk in and get seen immediately or within 24 hours. The last time I did that in the UK was when I virtually walked in to a dentist and collapsed in agony but even then I was given paracetamol and told to come back in 2 weeks, getting a normal appointment could take months, if you could find a dentist to take you that is.

French trains, well not much experience personally but my wife has been to Paris for 29,00 Euros each way on the TGV and 85 Euros to southern Spain 1st class although in fairness the difference between 1st and 2nd was 10 Euros and a white head rest cover on the seat. We seem to get loads of offers sent to us by SNCF but sadly not to anywhere we want to go.

My car goes in to the garage at 09:00 for a service and I get it back at 12:00 and it only costs me 180 Euros. I don't know how much it would cost in the UK but my old one (Discovery) cost £300 for a basic service and they kept it for a day.

So all in all there is good things about each country. Living in France I see the short comings here also but is it not the case wherever you decide to emigrate too. You really have to give up comparing after a while as it does your head in, just get on with life I guess and make the best of it that you can.

[Will]

Rail?

From French (Normandy) house, 40 minute drive to nearest station. Five trains per day to |Paris. Journey time nearly 3 hours, 250km. Frequently late or cancelled. When the train arrives it cannot use the main Montparnasse station because its old-technology diesel engines are deemed to be too polluting, so it uses Vaugirard which is a good 10 minutes or so from the main concourse. Fare 20€ - 60€ each way depending on when booked, how many people travelling etc.

From English house (Sussex), 10 minutes walk to station. Three trains per hour for most of the day to Victoria, one to London Bridge (more frequent at peak hours). Usually on, or close to, scheduled time. Journey time 50-70 minutes, 35 miles. Modern electric trains (since previous operator Connex, a French company, lost the franchise) except for the hourly 'alternative' line to Victoria which sometimes uses older trains. Fare £8 (off-peak advance booking) - £28 return.

Again, not knocking any country's system, just trying to show there is good and bad everywhere. Comparisons are odious anyway.

No doubt weather-related cancellations and delays may be mentioned. I will say in response to that, that I have fairly recently been in Norway, Sweden and Denmark in winter at times when unexpected severe (or not so severe in the Danish case) weather disrupted public transport and air travel.

I used to get the car serviced in France, about 150€. However, I can get a more thorough service than just the French 'vidange' in England for £99 or less, while I wait, so any advantage there has disappeared.

And, most remarkable of all, Quillan and I seem to be in agreement.

[Gardengirl]

''Heh! Nothing's perfect, however as a recent consumer of the NHS at a reasonable serious level, today it is awful.''

Gluestick, I can't claim to have the breadth of experience you obviously have of NHS, but I also have recent fairly serious experience. Over the last 6 months I've had very good care and felt supported by NHS staff in hospital and at home, with phone calls from nurses to check on me at home. Problems were one inexperienced surgeon, a machine which broke down, delaying treatment, plus finding parking space. Over a  longer period my SIL has had even more need of NHS for a serious illness, and ongoing treatment  has also been superb.

Our GP surgery in UK is excellent, with none of the problems I've heard about in other places. Out of hours we ring a phone number, give brief details to a member of staff, and visit a clinic attached to the local hospital in town. Again, that has always worked very well for our family since our GPs stopped doing out of hours work.

Accident & Emergncy departments do seem rather grim in UK, but the one in France I was taken to after a fall last summer was at least as bad! Actual treatment was excellent, and the young doctor who stitched me up was a very neat seamstress! It was interesting to see how the EHIC worked; finding someone in the right department who knew how to deal with it was also interesting. It would have been very easy to avoid paying for it all, as nobody took any of my details, I wasn't told anything about reporting to the finance office, which was difficult to find.

[Gluestick]

From my own personal experience, taking a friend with a bowel problem to the clinic her (And our French) GP suggested (Whom she saw late the same morning), meant  an on-time appointment in a building (With vast free carparking) which put most UK hotels to shame; being treated with the utmost courtesy and civility; our friend had her consultants appointment immediately after X Ray; and was then treated; and off we set home: and all within 1 hour and 15 mins!

In the UK any problem outside the whit (And more critically, the volition!) of our GP means:

1.  He writes for an appointment:

2.  With a large slice of luck, some weeks later an appointment is made:

3.  After some weeks (or recently last year in my wife's case months) later one goes to the hospital, allowing at least 45 mins prior to the appointment to fight and wait for a parking space: which costs a minimum of £2 and is shortly being increased:

4.  If one is really having a good day, then the meeting with the delegated consultant (But normally a junior and often a nurse) will take place less than an hour past the time stated:

5.  If further diagnostic intervention is required, an X Ray might, with luck cost you another hour; if it is anything esoteric such as CAT or MRI, then away you goes and you waits: for possibly another month or so.........................:

6.  Then you wait for the consultant to again see you: more weeks are ticking by:

7.  Eventually, you might be lucky enough to be treated!

"I know!" I says, " We'll start the ball rolling by seeking an immediate assessment from the right person, privately: and pay.

So off to our local BUPA-Spire facility.

So we did. Knowing that eventually, Mrs G would be compelled to go NHS since the lump (A Small painful lesion on a foot) was either Malignant or Benign: and needed the services of the Path lab to determine what and which.

Problem: the BUPA Spire consultant was, according to our GP not registered with local NHS Services and therefore not recognised!

[:@][:-))]

Thus it was commence the WHOLE process from the beginning once more...............

GP visit: mid September: Consultant appointment: Mid November: minor op for tissue sample; December: final outcome?

Pass.

At least the tissue showed it was not malignant: but it is still bloody painful and Mrs G has no knowledge of what it is: and where she goeth from here.

Postcode Lottery?

Perhaps; however it is a major NHS Trust with no adverse reports and is a university teaching hospital to boot.

Rail: it costs me now £ 17++ for a day return to travel 44 miles to London on a cattletruck. And the operator is one of the best! We're told in the league tables.

Dentists; um yes: just started a new course of private treatment (No usable NHS dentists around here! I've been compelled to go private since my NHS dentist for over 25 years is now a place for checkups; quick scales and polishes; bad fillings: and pulling teeth: For which one pays! And they aren't licensed for such as Root Canal).

New Dentist: Check up: one filling; two hygienist visits; one cap; £1200.

Good here innit?

 

[:)]

[Will]

"So, if it's really so bad in France, then why do so many bother?"

Good point, which deserves its own reply. I don't think anybody is saying it's bad. Rather it's different in many aspects but looking at the whole picture the swings and roundabouts come into the equation and things are neither much better nor much worse in any civilised country.

I think the 'why bother' is that many people are attracted to try somewhere else - in this case France. That may because things really do appear better. Some, but to only a small degree, of this is the 'grass is greener' syndrome. Some, equally small, will be down to the picture that was painted - less 'fluffily' now - by TV programmes and glossy magazines. Most will be relishing a challenge and an adventure.

After a while what was novel becomes commonplace; the need kicks in to earn a crust as the money doesn't stretch as far as we thought it would; the pull of family or our roots is another thing on the 'negative' side. So it's underlined that life is all a lottery, utopia doesn't exist, everywhere has its good and bad points, and whether we elect to stay in France or not, making the move has been a mostly positive and highly worthwhile experience.

Which has brought us a long way from HMRC and 'screwing expats'. I will bring it back on track by saying that perhaps the one thing for us that leaves a really unpleasant taste about France is down to its own equivalent to HMRC. HMRC may not be perfect, may lack sympathy and understanding, or not be very user-friendly, and I have to be careful because Mrs W is a former revenue person and we are having dinner this evening with two very good friends who enjoy high-level positions in that august body. But 'les impots' can surpass them.

 

[Gluestick]

Good point, Will! I'd really fogotten how this forum is liable to so quickly go OT!

And, what fun it is![:)]

Mea Culpa: for which I hold me hands up, your Honour.

A few years back I was lunching with a charming chap, a very senior consultant in the then World's largest consulting firm, who were heavily engaged in acting as Special Advisers to HM Treasury: he met Sir Nick Montagu (Then Chair of the clumsily titled, "Her Majesty's Board of The Inland Revenue"), on a very regular basis. We were working on a new project.............

Now, my luncheon companion was a Northern lad, a Chartered Accountant and also a Chartered Engineer: and, to misquote the Bard, suffered fools less than gladly!

"Sir Nick is a bloody idiot!" he said," All he does at meetings, is drip Latin epigrams!"

Perhaps a little tale for this evening?

[:)]

 

[velcorin]

I'm not playing this game[;-)]

Suffice to say, boy are you going to be in for some surprises when you get here[:D]

If you want an immigrant's view of the UK, which is what effectively people are posting regarding France here, try checking the sites to which French residents in the UK post. Here's one my wife uses, http://www.bonjourlondres.com/modules/newbb/

When they compare France to the UK, they can't find a bad thing to say............................think about it[I]

[Gluestick]

[quote user="velcorin"]

I'm not playing this game[;-)]

Suffice to say, boy are you going to be in for some surprises when you get here[:D] [/quote]

That's assuming, velcorin, that I am going to live in France full time.

Was once: now not.

[Www]

[Will]

Nice story, Gluey. Though I fear it may be a bit too close to home for this evening's company [;-)] and that the present incumbents probably think a Latin epigram is something you would find on a Roman tombstone.

In fact a nice discussion all round, with the good humour that makes such things so enlightening and enjoyable. Who really cares if it drifts off topic?

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Will"]

Nice story, Gluey. Though I fear it may be a bit too close to home for this evening's company [;-)] and that the present incumbents probably think a Latin epigram is something you would find on a Roman tombstone.[/quote] [:D]

[quote]In fact a nice discussion all round, with the good humour that makes such things so enlightening and enjoyable. Who really cares if it drifts off topic?

[/quote]

Not moi, mon brave !

[:)]

[Quillan]

[quote user="velcorin"]

I'm not playing this game[;-)]

Suffice to say, boy are you going to be in for some surprises when you get here[:D]

If you want an immigrant's view of the UK, which is what effectively people are posting regarding France here, try checking the sites to which French residents in the UK post. Here's one my wife uses, http://www.bonjourlondres.com/modules/newbb/

When they compare France to the UK, they can't find a bad thing to say............................think about it[I]

[/quote]

Wow just spent a few minutes browsing through that forum, it smacks of what somebody said here "why bother" but then we know they are there for either education or money i.e. work. Theres one guy who really doesn't like England or the English although my wife would be OK because he likes and trusts Cockney's. Actually it could be this forum but in French although I do like the presentation by the way, has that certain French flare to it. Interesting to see the other side as they say and very much recommended reading if you have time. I shall definitely visit again, can't wait to read the thread on the NHS. Theres even some characters there that are very similar to the ones here, no name no pack drill as they say. [;-)]

[Quillan]

Just to add in this thread they claim there are 300,000 French settled in London.

http://www.bonjourlondres.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3967&forum=11&post_id=34973#forumpost34973

[velcorin]

300K is just London, they are probably using the French Consulate data, so it will only be people who have not realised that they are no longer in France and don't have to register to do everything, including breathing[:D] My wife did register, it made renewing passeports easier, voting in French elections, etc. Certainly London and the M4 corridor is totally over run with Frogs.........Reading, Oxford, Newbury, Swindon. Dominique always used to moan about them, coz they aways seemed to latch onto her, and assume coz they spoke the same language she'd be their friend.

I loved the PAYG thread. They're shocked as to how cheap UK mobiles are. One guy says "french mobiles are the most expensive in the western world" then some pedent picks him up, and says....................."no it's not, Malta is"  Never happens on here does it[:D]

[velcorin]

Sorry, what was the OP?....................we've really wandered this time!

[Will]

That's a very interesting forum, I had seen it before but had forgotten about it. So much that would never be allowed on this site, on account of the vulgarity and racism. I was really looking forward to the 'black list' bit with all the complaints about London, but noted that almost all the 'recent' contributions were from 2008. I wonder if that means the French suddenly started liking London (unlikely) or that the prime whinger got fed up and went home a year and a half ago?

I noticed one user called tag.... The banana's brother? Shome mishtake, shurely...

[woolybanana]

One must , I fear, draw a veil over the activities of that tag.

However many there may actually be, when we had kids at the French lycée, there seemed to be millions of the 'ikkl' *uggers, all earning vast amounts. Though my former, common-law step-daughter occasionally dragged in strays who seemed to be down on their luck, whom we fed, watered and found a space in a sleeping bag on the floor for a few days, then sent on their way.

[Richard51]

We had a young french couple come and stay with us here in the UK and they raved about the UK -they would love to come and work here.  He is a lawyer and she is an English teacher and they are both working on an assembly line making car air-conditioning systems because they can't find work in France.  Her sister (also a qualified English teacher) is working as a post woman - for the same reasons.

Even knowing how bad the employment situation is in France we were shocked.  It certainly puts into perspective those that come on here with plans to move to France with limited French language skills, qualifications that are not recognised with the hope they will somehow find a job to support them and their family.