The scandal of the rich people who have social housing

[NormanH]

There are families with an income of between €11500 and €13500 per month who have HLM (Housing at a moderate rent) thus depriving the families in real need.

About 10% of people who have HLM shouldn't be in them :[:@]

http://www.lefigaro.fr/immobilier/2010/11/29/05002-20101129ARTFIG00399-53000-foyers-fortunes-occupent-des-hlm.php

[cooperlola]

I agree. [:@]

I know people who don't earn that much in a year.

[Pommier]

Do you think that Britain is going the right way when the government says that there won't be tenancies for life, but that there will be reviews and those tenants who are earning large salaries will be given notice to leave?

[cooperlola]

Well, Pommier, it certainly seems a bit nuts to me to have people without a place to live whilst the ever-diminishing stock of social housing (so much of which in the UK, the dragon lady sold off anyway) is let to those who could afford to buy private homes.  I know that means testing is one of those things which government is often reluctant to do but I have never understood why.  It's a bit like another discussion we've been having about child support - why this goes to wealthy people, I have never understood.

[Pommier]

I'm with you on this, although I do think that it's something which needs more thought. It's important that those tenants on lowish wages aren't forced out leaving council estates as ghettos of the unemployed. I'd also say it would be a good idea for councils to assess the housing needs of their tenants to stop big houses being occupied by one or two people.

When we were young and living in a council flat there was a scheme where the council gave us a 100% mortgage so we could buy our first house. That was such a good idea and helped us as well as the person on the council waiting list.

[dragonrouge]

Of course Robert Maxwell was a council tenant of Headington Hill Hall, Oxford.

[woolybanana]

In fact, in France, those earning over a certain income do pay an extra rent but it is not a lot and they are not asked to move on. But, as in UK, it is an issue that needs addressing as there are 1.5 million here who need HLM accommodation.

[Quillan]

There are some countries which have a much better idea of dealing with social housing and the one I like is apparently from Australia. Basically the rental value of social property is charged at the market rate. The government pays towards the rent, if you are poor then they contribute a large amount but as your income increases you pay a higher percentage until you get to the point where you actually pay a premium and it's cheaper for you to either rent in the private sector or possibly buy a property.

[woolybanana]

[quote user="dragonrouge"]Of course Robert Maxwell was a council tenant of Headington Hill Hall, Oxford.[/quote]

Isn't Blenheim Palace a council property as it is paid at a shilling a year or somesuch?

[Frederick]

[quote user="Pommier"]Do you think that Britain is going the right way when the government says that there won't be tenancies for life, but that there will be reviews and those tenants who are earning large salaries will be given notice to leave?[/quote]

 

Yes !..... Also is it right when granny pops her clogs and leaves her bungalow to a council tenant they stay  paying a subsidised rent ?..Then sell it and blow the cash on partying in their new holiday home on the Costa del Sol ...Or buy one in France perhaps .   

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Quillan"]There are some countries which have a much better idea of dealing with social housing and the one I like is apparently from Australia. Basically the rental value of social property is charged at the market rate. The government pays towards the rent, if you are poor then they contribute a large amount but as your income increases you pay a higher percentage until you get to the point where you actually pay a premium and it's cheaper for you to either rent in the private sector or possibly buy a property.[/quote]

Complicated issue, Q.

Point of fact, since the 1989 (??) Housing Act, Housing Associations (HAs) were compelled to drive their rents to market level pertaining.

And furthermore, to seek funding from the market at commercial rates as against relying on HAG (Housing Aid Grant) distributed by the Housing Corporation: a government body.

Since most Local Authorities (LAs) have not replaced stock after Right to Buy (RTB) sell off and prevented from applying the released capital to new builds (They had to "Ring Fence" the proceeds and use this to pay down LA debt) most social housing has been provisioned by HAs.

And many LAs have sold off their stock to HAs.

Circa 85% ++ of social tenants are in receipt of Housing Benefit (HB) which is, of course, means tested.

Most HAs masquerade as charities (They are, technically, charities since this allowed them to prevent RTB applications from tenants): and they are factually, commercial organisations engaged in speculative building, operation of residential homes, sheltered accommodation and the gamut of commercial property activities.

I was a committee member of a major HA and consultant to another smaller outfit back in the mid 1970s when HAs came into their own.

Thus once again, we have one branch of government handing out large wedges of cash to a sort of quasi-government organisation in this case NGOs and the like.

The old "Council House tenants are rubbish and a blot on the horizon of civilisation!" is a favoured incendiary topic for the Daily Mail et al and right wing governments.

I wrote an analysis of all this years back for the Investors Chronicle: forecasting how (The Thatcher policy of forcing HAs to raise rents to market level and seek commercial rate funding), would create a nonsense via Housing Benefit.

Seems I wasn't far wrong...............................

Private sector landlords, exploiting the Housing Benefit system venally, is, of course, yet another matter: and again, is a simple function of too many people seeking affordable housing and too few logical social provisions.

Final comment: the primary intention of HAs was to create "Mixed" estates and get away from the "ghettoisation" of LA estates, by putting all the bad apples in one barrel.

It failed dismally, since later governments interfered on political expediency grounds, a simply treated HAs as the de facto suplier of social housing: which was far from the original concept and philosophy.

Doncha just love politicians?

[Www]

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Frederick"]

Yes !..... Also is it right when granny pops her clogs and leaves her bungalow to a council tenant they stay  paying a subsidised rent ?..Then sell it and blow the cash on partying in their new holiday home on the Costa del Sol ...Or buy one in France perhaps .   

[/quote]

???????????

[8-)]

Explain please Fred: don't make any sense??

[NormanH]

Why is it  that a thread specifically about a situation in France, with a link to an article discussing particular French examples in French in a French newspaper gets dragged back to a UK context?

[Chancer]

Because the samesocial problem occurs in both countries, its unlikely that any of the forum members live in HLM whereas many, myself included, may have lived at one time in UK council or social housing and probably have relatives that still do yet could afford to do otherwise.

[Frederick]

Gluestick I know personally people who have been left property they could have moved into In one case they sold the house for over £200.000 in the same town they lived in . They took the cash and stayed in their HA Home . Hardly fair on those on the waiting list to sell a given house they could have moved into is it ?

I also know of one retired HA tenant who lives in Torramolinos . The HA flat is use on occasional returns to the UK .. That cant be right either... There must be many many more like them .

[Gluestick]

[quote user="NormanH"]Why is it  that a thread specifically about a situation in France, with a link to an article discussing particular French examples in French in a French newspaper gets dragged back to a UK context?

[/quote]

And also, probably,  since Q stated "........Some countries..............": which opened the debate to a wider focus.

However, others previously had already directed focus to Britain.

If you don't like Q's comments and OT orientation from your perspective, then take it up with him, directly via PM: after all, he is a Mod!

I'll also give you a bit of a further clue here: header for the homepage.

"Britain and North America's Best Selling Magazine About France."

Additionally, I provided my detailed background to provide some comprehension of the dynamic problems facing any nation state's desire, lack of desire, will, wish, or lack of same to provision Social Housing and the attendant problems, therein.

In academic terms of reference it is called Synthesis: which is a useful tool in analysis and commentary.

Norm: has it occurred to you to join a French language forum only: which debates and discusses French-Centric topics only?

Might protect your hypertension somewhat!

[Www]

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Frederick"]Gluestick I know personally people who have been left property they could have moved into In one case they sold the house for over £200.000 in the same town they lived in . They took the cash and stayed in their HA Home . Hardly fair on those on the waiting list to sell a given house they could have moved into is it ?

I also know of one retired HA tenant who lives in Torramolinos . The HA flat is use on occasional returns to the UK .. That cant be right either... There must be many many more like them .[/quote]

Thanks.

I understand your perspective now.

Of course, there is the reality that tenancy rights are not predicated on putative future events.

For example, no lease I know can, by law, impose the duty on a tenant to move out if, in the unlikely 13.5 million to 1 against chance they win the lottery! (Or 75 million odd to 1 for the Euro lottery).

[quote]There must be many many more like them[/quote]

So, how come 85% ++ of social housing tenants claim and receive Housing benefit?

I do believe these cases are the exceptions which rather prove the rule.

Additionally, remember, no matter what present income might be, the tenants must enjoy an excellent credit track record to actually qualify for a mortgage.

A large majority sadly do not.

So, what's the answer?

For France (Pandering to Norm here![Www]) and Britain's governments to provide state mortgages for social housing tenants?

Heard of ACORN?

See here:

It was ACORN in the USA (Sorry Norm: Synthesis again.) which pushed the US government to pressurise Ginnae Mae and Fannie Mac to engineer what became known as Sub Prime mortgage facilities for those who couldn't really afford them to buy houses.

Not exactly a great success story...................................

[NormanH]

[quote user="Gluestick"][quote user="NormanH"]Why is it  that a thread specifically about a situation in France, with a link to an article discussing particular French examples in French in a French newspaper gets dragged back to a UK context?

[/quote]

I'll also give you a bit of a further clue here: header for the homepage.

"Britain and North America's Best Selling Magazine About France."

Additionally, I provided my detailed background to provide some comprehension of the dynamic problems facing any nation state's desire, lack of desire, will, wish, or lack of same to provision Social Housing and the attendant problems, therein.

In academic terms of reference it is called Synthesis: which is a useful tool in analysis and commentary.

Norm: has it occurred to you to join a French language forum only: which debates and discusses French-Centric topics only?

Might protect your hypertension somewhat!

[Www]

[/quote]

And.."

What is the France Forum?

The France forum has been running for 8 years and is one of, if not

THE original forums about France on the web for English speakers.

It was created back in 2000 as a meeting place for on-line discussions

of France and French Living, creating a community where users can

discuss various aspects of France, ask questions and give answers.

Our main objective is to continue to provide an area where our

readers can interact with questions, answers and discussions on moving

to France, living in France and regions of France.

The irrelevant waffle, based on misconception that you deem to be 'Synthesis' (look it up) :-) , shows that you couldn't distinguish Hilary from Trinity.

I have a number of recent posts which are aimed at helping English people in France, either practically, or to give some insight into French politics or issues.

When occasionally I post on other topics, I do do in the rubric 'Other topics'

Is that difficult to understand?

[Gluestick]

[quote user="NormanH"]

I have a number of recent posts which are aimed at helping English people in France, either practically, or to give some insight into French politics or issues.

[/quote]

So how many English people in France, who are members of this forum, do you believe rent Social Housing; in France?

Personally, I would doubt anyone.

[Russethouse]

 Might be one, GS and we certainly had two ladies  in the past who were........

 Actually I think you guys are missing a relevant point, these properties are not just houses they are peoples homes. Just because you have suddenly inherited another house doesn't mean you automatically want  to leave neighbours, friends, schools etc, and if you are in later life it probably isn't that great an idea......

[Gluestick]

I totally agree, Russet.

Precisely the perspective I used to adopt at HA committee meetings when certain members used to discuss tenants as if they were simply numbers, cyphers and wholly unimportant in their scheme of things.

As I repeatedly pointed out, tenants enjoyed significant rights: similar in many ways to freeholders.

I also used to remind them that after a number of years, the tenants in most cases had invested in their homes, created gardens and in many cases, carried out improvements at the tenant's cost: all naturally forgotten by politicians who simply view such people as chess pieces, to be shuffled around in the cause of political expediency and meeting the whims of whichever idiots happen to be in charge at the time.

Mrs Gluey and I treat  our own tenants from the very perspective that our property is now their home; their environment and their space.

Back in the late 1970s, during an extended period of train strikes, I borrowed a chum's flat in of all places, Walworth, near Elephant and Castle, South London. Pearly King and Queen territory.The flats were part of the Peabody Trust: a very old housing charity.

The mainly elderly residents were being moved out and into new high rise tower blocks: which they hated; more so when the lifts were out, which they all too often were.

It was a little community: a local pub, general store, newsagents and so on as well as the mandatory Pie and Eel shop and the residents had been born and grown up in this quaint little "Village": they knew each other and were always ready to help each other out.

The perhaps well-intentioned council and social workers were destroying these elderly people's lives, past, heritage and often, will to live.

And forcibly breaking up friendships which had existed for often over fifty years.

It was an excellent lesson for me in learning more about people. They were all great!

[Patf]

So, Norman, is there the same strong reaction in France to these wealthy people in social housing, as there is in UK to housing benefit scroungers?

I know it's two different things, but I can't imagine wealthy brits deigning to live in a council flat.

There was a series on tv recently about MPs living temporarily in council accommodation, to see what it feels like - they didn't like it [:@]

[Gluestick]

[quote user="NormanH"]The irrelevant waffle, based on misconception that you deem to be 'Synthesis' (look it up) :-) , shows that you couldn't distinguish Hilary from Trinity.

[/quote]

Just for your elucidation, Norm.[;-)]

What is a Comparison-And-Contrast Synthesis?

The comparison/contrast enables you to examine two subjects (or

sources) against one another by considering their similarities

(comparison) and differences (contrast). First you will have to

carefully read your sources in order to discover significant criteria for analysis.

A criterion is a specific point to which both your authors refer and

about which they may agree or disagree. You will then organize your

analysis by subject/source or by criteria.

Source:

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Patf"]So, Norman, is there the same strong reaction in France to these wealthy people in social housing, as there is in UK to housing benefit scroungers?

I know it's two different things, but I can't imagine wealthy brits deigning to live in a council flat.

There was a series on tv recently about MPs living temporarily in council accommodation, to see what it feels like - they didn't like it [:@]

[/quote]

A lot of wealthy MPs had council flats around Westminster, Pat: they all ensured irrespective of their party they had exercised the right to buy before Fat Prescott changed the rules.....................

[Richard51]

[quote user="Frederick"]Gluestick I know personally people who have been left property they could have moved into In one case they sold the house for over £200.000 in the same town they lived in . They took the cash and stayed in their HA Home . Hardly fair on those on the waiting list to sell a given house they could have moved into is it ?

I also know of one retired HA tenant who lives in Torramolinos . The HA flat is use on occasional returns to the UK .. That cant be right either... There must be many many more like them .[/quote]

Likewise Frederick - I know a family that did the same.  They bought a house in Spain.  They also ran a cash antiques business the proceeds of which went in the same direction...stuffed in suitcases to avoid the tax man.  They were both claiming disability / incapacity benefit too...[Www]

Mrs R51