mining disasters

[NickP]

With the dreadful news coming out of Wales this morning about the mine accident, can someone please explain to me why in this day and age of technology, [PPP one for you ]  that people who do these jobs are not covered by communication and life supporting systems in every part of a mine? This morning the news is saying that "experts" are hoping that the miners are sitting in an air pocket? What!!!

[pachapapa]

If BP take risks in the Gulf of Mexico, seems reasonable that a bunch of foolhardy prats in Wales will do similar.

If the pictures of the mine are authentic then it is a death trap, I cannot remember seeing anything quite so bad and that includes

illegal mining in Brazil, Peru, Bolivia and Argentina.

The access to the mine frrom the adit includes an inclined rope haulage with the lower area of the mine flooded, presumably resulting from ingress of water from an adjacent worked out expoitation.

The recent torrential rain may be a factor.  Although the South Wales Coal Measures are folded, particularly in anthracitic areas, the chance of an air pocket being available is limited.

The inclined access with its rudimentary support has probably collapsed over some sections, the underground pumping facility has been lost, recovery to the working area will be slow and difficult, possibly very dangerous involving progressive support as the pumps are moved forward. The chances are that the breakthrough of the water has created a large reservoir of water now available from the adjacent old workings.

I have not read the reports this morning so my opinion is based on Sky News midnight thursday.

[Clarkkent]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

If BP take risks in the Gulf of Mexico, seems reasonable that a bunch of foolhardy prats in Wales will do similar.

If the pictures of the mine are authentic then it is a death trap, I cannot remember seeing anything quite so bad and that includes

illegal mining in Brazil, Peru, Bolivia and Argentina.

[/quote]

From what I can gather, this is not a conventional coal mine, with pithead machinery and employing hundreds of miners, but a tiny one-man-and-a-dog operation. It appears to be ill-equipped and poorly resourced and maintained - a disaster waiting to happen. Pachapapa describes it as worse than illegal mines he has seen in South America. If this is the case, why are such places permitted?

I am saddened by this likely tragedy, but haven't these miners just taken too many risks? Are there others, Health & Safety black spots? If so, close them down.

 

[NickP]

Thanks for the lecture PPP, but I could have sworn that the question I asked was about communication and life support systems or lack of. Amazing that when you ask a so called expert it's very difficult to get simple answers. Bit like expecting a politician to give a straight answer I suppose?  By the way I do object to your definition of Welsh miners as foolhardy pratts.

[nomoss]

Some background. I'm not sure PPP's comment was justified.

http://www.minersadvice.co.uk/gleision.htm

[Frederick]

Having lost my grandfather down a coal mine under a fall of stone I can do without reading comments about miners being foolhardy prats thank you !

[nomoss]

The pictures shown on Sky were taken in 2008, well before the mine was reopened http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/media-gallery/16070700

Renewal of consent was apparently completed in 2010, presumably this included some safety requirements.

Edit: consent was 2010

[Rabbie]

Unfortunately they have now found three of the miners dead. See this link for more info

[Gardener]

I like to think that I am an optimist, but I watched the SKY live coverage of this last night and from what I heard re the amount of water I wondered how they could possibly have survived. I don't how much other information the families were given that the public weren't privvy to,but the report didn't touch on the thought that it may have already been too late.

[Patf]

The recent news is very sad, but whatever the modern safety precautions mining will always be a very dangerous occupation. Like the fishing industry, you can't depend on Nature.

I grew up in a coalmining town in NE England and several of my peers had lost relatives "doon the pit".

[Ysatis]

PPP wrote 'a bunch of foolhardy prats in Wales'.

I too take offence at this generic remark. My husband's grand-father worked down Big Pit all his life. He was not a prat at all. He was a hard working, warm, kind, modest choir singing man.

I for one am grateful that there are men (past and present) who are brave enough to do this dangerous job.

It's a tragic story. Thoughts and prayers to their families.

[idun]

What a debate we could have about the men, women and children that are/were daft enough to be miners.

In the past I have seen on here that people have said that they have worked hard for their wealth, only I have yet to meet a rich miner and those I  know and know of worked harder than I can even begin to imagine in dangerous conditions, as it is never 'safe'.

My mother's family were miners, my grandad couldn't work again after a mining accident. My husband did his apprenticeship down the pit, where his grandfather was killed when my husband was a child. Part of my husband's job was to  crawl into 14" seams, but he didn't hew the coal though.

My husband sings plenty of songs about mining disasters. The employers / owners it would appear have little time for those that do the work, even today it would seem, well tonight that is just how it feels.

 

I am so sorry for the families of the men who were lost today.

[Ysatis]

I'm now re-reading this thread.

PPP, I think I may have been a bit hasty. I took your comment to be aimed at the miners not the management.

My apologies.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Ysatis "]I'm now re-reading this thread. PPP, I think I may have been a bit hasty. I took your comment to be aimed at the miners not the management. My apologies.[/quote]

There seem to be doubts about the authenticity of the pictures used by the media as they appear to not be current.

http://www.urbexforums.co.uk/showthread.php/1692-Gleison-Licensed-Mine-Glamorgan-May-08

[andyh4]

[quote user="NickP"]I could have sworn that the question I asked was about communication and life support systems or lack of. .[/quote]

 

Since no one has actually answered your question Nick, I will attempt to give you some ideas of the challenges from a position of never having worked in a mine but having quite some experience of being underground and general safety issues.

 

Communications:

1.  Radio - out of the question, it simply will not work in most underground situations

2.  Phone - difficult.  Requires special equipement that cannot create a spark in case of dust or gas which would then cause an explosion.  And while on the topic of explosions, they are very good at taking out the wires of phone systems.  Then you have the question of where to position the phones and the fact that the mine face is constantly moving forwards, implying that the phone system will constantly need to be moved forwards.  In reality not practical.

3.  There is a solution (Molephone) which is based on magnetic resistivity and can be made intrinsically safe, but I am not certain how well it would work in a mine environment and it also requires the receiver to be directly above the transmission point - which will be impractical in the normal mine situation.

 

Life support:

What do you want to provide protection against?

Most common incidents in mines are rock fall and wall collapse - for which a helmet provides some minimal protection, but nothing will protect against a 1t lump of roof.

Next comes gas, fire and dust explosion (remember the NewZealand tragedy) - So you provide all of your workers with Carbon Monoxide absorbing masks (a few mines do actually do this and issue CO detectors), flame resistant overalls,   Lights will aleady be either Davy lamps or intrinsically safe sealed electric lamps.  You might want to issue air bottles and masks as well.  So now our fully kitted up miner has a helmet, light, overalls, CO detector, CO mask, Air bottle and another mask - and you want him to start hewing coal!!!

So the alternative would be to have these things hung up at appropriate places throughout the mine and hope when the dreadful thing happens, that every single one of them can get to a set of kit and get it on and working in plenty of time. 

 

So now you are faced with one of the least likely risk events (but certainly not unknown) - catastrophic flooding.  A sudden inrush of a very large volume of water that will sweep away all in its path.  This includes all of your nicely set out safety gear hung on the walls somewhere and indeed the miners themselves.  There is a very high probability that the victims will be knocked unconscious as they are swept along and cannot then reach any safety gear before they drown.

 

 

 

 

[JohnM]

An easy mistake, I did the same thing, so, although I didn't post, I did think badly of PPP, therefore I'll apologise as well. In my defence PPP, you do tend to post messages that are lacking in clarity.

[NickP]

Thanks Andy, as you say phones are difficult, but when lives are at risk I  don't think that difficulty should be part of the equation. Life support ? well I would expect there to be oxygen,  food and water rations, which are quite possible to have stored in blast proof cabinets; so in the off chance that some people do survive the initial explosion or what ever; they would have some means of breathing, eating and drinking. Lots of professions and jobs are dangerous, but I am appalled that in todays climate of  "elf & safety" miners are still working in the dark ages. Once again thanks for your input.

[pachapapa]

My original comparison of BP and the welsh miners was an attempt to contrast the difference between the cost cutting disregard of safety regulations by a large capital enterprise and the likelihood that the miners working a small licensed adit working on a welsh hillside would in fact have a significantly sharper regard for the promulgated Safety Regulations. Indeed I believe that their capital would have been little more than their labour a few tools and the basic machinery for draining and lifting coal from the underground workings. I doubt that any expenditure would have been contemplated beyond the basics required by the Mines Inspectorate. In fact any such safety expenditure would probably not have made very much difference to their chances of an accident, normal safe working practices would have kept them out of trouble. Fatality rates in that type of mining would be unlikely to exceed  0,7 fatalities per 1000 workers per year; so the collective group could have with limited skills survived a working lifetime without much trouble. BUT the fatalities were caused by a catastrophic event, possibly unforeseen, that affected all the miners at the "working face". The two miners who escaped were, in my opinion, not close to the event but probably at that moment working as a winch driver and onsetter higher up the adit. One miner possibly close to the event managed to get out although injured, the other 4 probably died together without any chance to escape. There is still no explanation for the nature of the inrush of water but the assumption that they were working on an already leaking barrier to dam back the water from old adjacent workings is possible. But the main point is that the event was NOT, in my opinion, a normal daily safety consideration but an exceptional unexpected event.

It is possible that knowledge of the geology, strata structure, hydrogeology and surrounding workings might have enabled an assessment of the potential risks to be made but maybe not, who knows.

There is no shortage of regulations to control and guide the working of mines including collieries; check the link below.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/mining/legislatlist.htm

However of more practical interest the link below contains PDF files that can be downloaded; the detail is such that the files could be used to formulate training and specific working practices.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/mining/information.htm

[andyh4]

[quote user="NickP"]Thanks Andy, as you say phones are difficult, but when lives are at risk I  don't think that difficulty should be part of the equation.

The problem with phones is that to extend the circuit you have to keep splicing in new sections of wire and putting in new receiver/handsets.  All of this has to be done in an explosion proof manner - and that is not easy.  Add to that the fact that an explosion will almost certainly destroy the wiring and it is something only done in bigger pits and on the main roadways - never to the wroking face. 

In a flood and they don't work anyway, so it would have been no help at all.

Life support ? well I would expect there to be oxygen,  food and water rations,which are quite possible to have stored in blast proof cabinets; 

Saftey gear is never shut away in containers - number 1 rule of elf and S, safety/rescue gear has to be readily and immediately available.

Oxygen in a coal mine can be more of a liability than a help.  Coal plus oxygen = very high risk of spontaneous combustion.

So it would need to be air in bottles.  You need to train everyone to use the kit - it is not just a case of slap it on your face (as per the aircraft oxygen)

Food - no need - good for the morale, but the body can survive without food for several weeks - and the Peru mine collapse excepted, rescues rarely last beyond a couple of days.

Water - can be useful, but most people would carry a personal supply with them anyway - and come to that probably their bait box as well.

 

so in the off chance that some people do survive the initial explosion or what ever; they would have some means of breathing, eating and drinking. Lots of professions and jobs are dangerous, but I am appalled that in todays climate of  "elf & safety" miners are still working in the dark ages. Once again thanks for your input.[/quote]

 

Nick

 

I don't want you to think that I am being critical of your ideas, but often what we perceive as logical and natural solutions are in fact impractical or sometimes even downright dangerous.  I am sure that you are far from alone in thinking that these things should be standard and are shocked to find they are not.

[NickP]

Andy I don't think of your answers as critical at all, I just was looking for reasons as to why certain as you say "logical things" can't be done. You have answered quite succinctly and if that is the case maybe it's time that our society shut down these mines, after all there are very few left and the small output probably wouldn't be missed by our home consumers. Maybe we have something to thank Mrs. Thatcher for after all. [Www]

[pachapapa]

... and the Peru mine collapse excepted...

I presume you mean Chile!

At least you have the right continent...improving 5/10![;-)]

[pachapapa]

Your assessment of the danger of phones, oxygen, etc is misconceived.

As confirmed by the UK Guidelines for Safe Havens in Coal Mines; please refer to link below:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/mines08.pdf

[pachapapa]

At least the Rescue Services were efficient and well managed; I note that the Police had no direct intervention thus avoiding a complete farce like the explosion in New Zealand.

Watching the TV Sky live coverage we were struggling with an adequate conception of the difficulties involved but the following incident sufficed.

Rig leg hit by boat at night and damaged, crew evacuated, 12 volunteers put back on rig to assist freeing of leg whilst two heavy lift barges elevated side of rig, increase in wind and crew retired to one of the barges, surprise at being greeted by a complete Townsend Thoresen Bar, recovered from the Herald Enterprise boat, the videos taken of the underwater clean up bodies etc gave some indication of potential danger whilst waiting for the swell to abate.

[andyh4]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

... and the Peru mine collapse excepted...

I presume you mean Chile!

At least you have the right continent...improving 5/10![;-)]

[/quote]

 

You are of course correct - even down to the marking - indeed lenient