Yes, it is logical...

[woolybanana]

The point, Nick, is that it could happen. Do you really trust distanced administrtors to make decisions. They are paid to crunch numbers, not show compassion.

(Please excuse mu typing guys, I am not at home on the ipad and my PC is off.)

[Russethouse]

-http://www.freedomhealthinsurance.co.uk/news/liverpool-care-pathway

What's the difference wooly, my father had terminal cancer and during chemo got pneumonia, he was very poorly and the prognosis was not good, it was suggested that rather than actively fight it, and probably go through it all again in a couple of weeks time he could just be made comfortable and allowed to slip away.....that's what we did.....he had 'hospice at home' with nurses calling several times a day and one sitting with him each night, his medication was controlled until he just slipped away, pain free.

I think the relatives should be kept informed and in some situations consulted but apart from that I think we all have to face facts.....

[woolybanana]

The facts being that the doctor might want a new Porsche which he has been promised if he meets the target for killing people.

Of course we have to accept reality,, RH, but based on the condition and prognosis of the patient, not on the bribes paid to put people on the Pathway

[Rabbie]

[quote user="Russethouse"]-http://www.freedomhealthinsurance.co.uk/news/liverpool-care-pathway What's the difference wooly, my father had terminal cancer and during chemo got pneumonia, he was very poorly and the prognosis was not good, it was suggested that rather than actively fight it, and probably go through it all again in a couple of weeks time he could just be made comfortable and allowed to slip away.....that's what we did.....he had 'hospice at home' with nurses calling several times a day and one sitting with him each night, his medication was controlled until he just slipped away, pain free. I think the relatives should be kept informed and in some situations consulted but apart from that I think we all have to face facts.....[/quote]I think that's the point about this discussion. It seems that relatives are not being consulted or informed under the Pathway. I agree with you that they should be.

The NHS has to use its funds responsibly snd hard decisions have to made on occasions

[NormanH]

If my end is eased for compassionate reasons and with the informed consent of those I have named as my 'personne de confiance' so be it.

I am totally in agreement with WB in being very ill at ease with the idea that this should be part of a Hospital's targets or that any other financial issue should come into play.

[Pommier]

I think it depends on who is applying this system (they seem to be calling it 'Pathway' now, rather than Liverpool Care Pathway - did a Liverpudlian complain I wonder?) On breakfast TV this morning there was a woman who said it had worked for her father and they'd been consulted, then Rusty Lee told of her mother with dementia who was admitted to hospital with a lung infection. Her family then discovered that she'd been put on the 'Pathway' without their knowledge and was only going to be given pain relief. They insisted she be treated, and she's still alive. 

[idun]

[quote user="Pommier"]I think it depends on who is applying this system (they seem to be calling it 'Pathway' now, rather than Liverpool Care Pathway - did a Liverpudlian complain I wonder?) On breakfast TV this morning there was a woman who said it had worked for her father and they'd been consulted, then Rusty Lee told of her mother with dementia who was admitted to hospital with a lung infection. Her family then discovered that she'd been put on the 'Pathway' without their knowledge and was only going to be given pain relief. They insisted she be treated, and she's still alive. [/quote]

 

 

That Pommier, has made me so angry and a prime example of family being cruel and and uncaring without love and completely selfish and not a thought for their family member's welfare, at all! And that is why the medical staff were right in putting this patient on their road to death......... because simply, breathing is not life!

I don't care how any one else looks upon dementia, but IMO we should have 'gone' before it starts. Is there anything worse than the mind going? I would stop all 'other' care for dementia patients apart from pain relief, and without a moment's hesitation.

When I had my nightmare stay in french hospital, I had a very elderly venetian lady in the next bed to mine. She was in her late 80's and morphine made her very ill. She had a bad infection in her foot, a consequence of her diabetes. Apart from that she was bodily a bit frail, but mentally VIF! And yet to stop the pain, morphine had her very ill indeed. She would never, in the state she was in, be a candidate for the Liverpool Pathway.

At some point, what should happen to very old and frail patients. My Dad is now tired, I know he is, he tells me.  If they told him he had cancer tomorrow, he wouldn't want treatment. My friend's Dad knew he was very ill and simply got on with life and ignored it until a few weeks before the cancer took him. He knew it was time.

IF we are mentally well enough, we can say we want treatment. This has nothing to do with money per se and for the forseeable future will not be, it is to do with 'life' and being able to live it.

And talking of money........my french neighbour's grand mother had dementia and her doctors got her through a couple of heart attacks and  pneumonia. Her daughter didn't want them too, the old lady didn't know where she was or who any one was any more. And my neighbour's mother said that she thought that the doctors were only keeping her mother alive for the money!!!!! Because there is that too, especially in France!

[Rabbie]

Having done some research into the Pathway it seems that some people were denied food and/or water. This IMO is clearly wrong and justifies the language used by WB in his original post. While it may be OK to deny treatment to very old and infirm people it is clearly wrong to deny them food and water.

[Russethouse]

Surely if you are Ill enough to care you shouldn't qualify ?

[NickP]

[quote user="Rabbie"]Having done some research into the Pathway it swwma that some people were denied food and/or water. This IMO is clearly wrong and justifies the language used by WB in his original post. While it may be OK to deny treatment to very old and infirm people it is clearly wrong to deny them food and water.[/quote]+

So your happy to say that the NHS is committing murder? If so; I would suggest you make an appointment with your local police station and report this matter immediately.

[woolybanana]

Isn't it called corporate manslaughter?

[NickP]

[quote user="woolybanana"]Isn't it called corporate manslaughter?[/quote]

 

Your the expert wooly;  you said it's manslaughter or murder. So you decide and report it. let's know how you get on

[woolybanana]

Nick, didnt you used to work for the NHS?

[woolybanana]

Hmmmm, i wonder, even if it is the Mail:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/biographyandmemoirreviews/9631430/Leonard-Cohens-hallelujah-moment.html

[NickP]

[quote user="woolybanana"]Nick, didnt you used to work for the NHS?[/quote]

 

No wooly I never worked for the NHS and don't now. I paid the dues all my life and experienced the benefits of the UK health system and was/am very satisfied with the deal. My good wife was an SRN for 45 years including being a hospital nurse, a tutor nurse and for the last ten years of her career a practise nurse, during this time as a practise nurse she studied in her own time to specialise in Diabetic care and received her qualification from Warwick university. We have four other nurses in our family and a Neuro Surgeon, so I am able to keep up to date with practises of the NHS and not one of our family or their vast amount of colleagues  commits murder as you insinuate. I understand that reading the Daily Wail and the Torygraph has got you excited, but for you to make totally unfounded accusations is an insult to the NHS and all the wonderful caring people who work in the system. Obviously you and I will not agree on this subject, so I suggest we draw a line under it.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="NickP"]

[quote user="Rabbie"]Having done some research into the Pathway it swwma that some people were denied food and/or water. This IMO is clearly wrong and justifies the language used by WB in his original post. While it may be OK to deny treatment to very old and infirm people it is clearly wrong to deny them food and water.[/quote]+

So your happy to say that the NHS is committing murder? If so; I would suggest you make an appointment with your local police station and report this matter immediately.

[/quote]I am not happy if these allegations are correct. I am not privy to the information that could confirm or refute these allegations. I would not accuse anyone of murder or manslaughter unless I had definite evidence. However if the allegations are shown to be correct then those responsible should be fully investigated if only to avoid the vast majority of caring, hard working staff that do such a good job for the NHS being tainted by the allegations

[woolybanana]

In all honesty, I do not really suspect the medical staff of initiating most of this, but the pen-pushing number crunchers who probably have never seen a patient in their working lives.

[idun]

[quote user="woolybanana"]In all honesty, I do not really suspect the medical staff of initiating most of this, but the pen-pushing number crunchers who probably have never seen a patient in their working lives.[/quote]

Why this obsession with the UK number crunchers, when the french doctors number crunching could keep you alive in pain and distress far longer than you could imagine,  there is no 'do no harm' in that scenario either, harm will be done.

Maybe you have experienced someone dying before your eyes, and experiencing terrible suffering and in a state you would never leave an animal in........ ?......... or maybe not.........?

 

One thing I do know, is that I am going to do a living will and make sure that my family know exactly what I want and when, especially, do not ressussitate. My choice and no irrational decision making left to my family.

[woolybanana]

This is as it should be.

[NickP]

I hope for your sake rabbie that the wall your sitting on isn't too high?[:D][:D]

[Rabbie]

[quote user="NickP"]I hope for your sake rabbie that the wall your sitting on isn't too high?[:D][:D][/quote]Sorry, you've completely lost me there. Perhaps you would like explain what you mean.

[NickP]

rabbie, Fence/wall ? You don't need me to explain that to you, as I suspect that you're an intelligent person who can work that out yourself.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="NickP"]

rabbie, Fence/wall ? You don't need me to explain that to you, as I suspect that you're an intelligent person who can work that out yourself.

[/quote]Thanks for your explanation. Wall led me astray with thoughts of Humpty Dumpty. But no I am not sitting on the fence. I am quite sure of my position. I believe it is OK to have some control  over what treatments are given to whom because NHS funds are not unlimited even when topped up by private health insurance BUT I do not think it is right to refuse food or fluids to patients in order to hasten their death especially if this is done without the consent or knowledge of relatives just to save monet. The Liverpool Pathway seems to be a particularly nasty can of worms and very open to abuse and does not improve the justifiablely high reputation of the NHS

[Hoddy]

I’ve heard a couple of items this week on this subject which helped me make my mind up about it as it currently exists. The first was a spokeswoman for the hospice movement who first devised the Liverpool Care Pathway. She explained that for them the problem was discussed much earlier in the progress of the disease, that the family was always involved (as opposed to informed) and that great attention was paid to pain relief.

The second one was a man whose father had died of dehydration n agony because his pain relief was inadequate. He felt guilty that he had not objected when he was informed that his father had been put on the pathway.

Like NickP, I personally have always had good treatment from the NHS. I also managed to get as far page one hundred and forty something of the report into the goings on at Norths Staffs general before giving up in anger and disgust.

Once again it seems that a reasonable idea has been seized on by the bureaucrats for their own aims.

Hoddy

[woolybanana]

Agreed