I don't understand anymore.

[Théière]

[quote user="Quillan"]Life is strange. I left my computer to go back and what TV and whats on ITV, a program entitled "Has the NHS Stopped Caring" and the investigation of the mistreatment of several hundred patients by nurses who have neglected them leaving them to starve, or worse, to death. Obviously not all the millions of people using the the NHS are happy with them.[/quote]

Amazingly or predictably you pull up the only information to suit your argument which thankfully the program didn't, it gave a balanced view. As in all walks of life and all jobs some people care and others don't about how well they perform their tasks for reward. Its repeated at 3am.

Did you also happen to catch how many people were treated?  I didn't as O/H decided to speak at that moment but Its a huge number every 4 hours, from a service that is being steered onto the rocks so that no one will mind if it's broken up and sold off to private Co's  Now I don't care about Tony B Liar or Gordon or This lot of lying B*stards. Politically things will have to change, Your old mate Nigel is looking very pleased about Cyprus.

But my original point is why remove money from the countries purse when it is needed to provide services? just for the shallow minded to waste on gambling? 

[woolybanana]

So far there is a very good reason to try a mixed public private system, provided and only provided the regulations are good and tight.

What is happening with the hospital trusts which are now run by private groups?

Eg http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9889500/Hinchingbrooke-Hospital-private-firm-transforms-failing-NHS-trust.html

[Russethouse]

[quote user="Théière"]

[quote user="Quillan"]Life is strange. I left my computer to go back and what TV and whats on ITV, a program entitled "Has the NHS Stopped Caring" and the investigation of the mistreatment of several hundred patients by nurses who have neglected them leaving them to starve, or worse, to death. Obviously not all the millions of people using the the NHS are happy with them.[/quote]

Amazingly or predictably you pull up the only information to suit your argument which thankfully the program didn't, it gave a balanced view. As in all walks of life and all jobs some people care and others don't about how well they perform their tasks for reward. Its repeated at 3am.

Did you also happen to catch how many people were treated?  I didn't as O/H decided to speak at that moment but Its a huge number every 4 hours, from a service that is being steered onto the rocks so that no one will mind if it's broken up and sold off to private Co's  Now I don't care about Tony B Liar or Gordon or This lot of lying B*stards. Politically things will have to change, Your old mate Nigel is looking very pleased about Cyprus.

But my original point is why remove money from the countries purse when it is needed to provide services? just for the shallow minded to waste on gambling? 

[/quote] Even gambling makes jobs for someone, and the more we give people to spend hopefully the more jobs it might create

[YCCMB]

[url]http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-01-03/frances-health-care-system-is-going-broke[/url]

And have a look at this: its only a couple of years out of date in terms of the input data.

[url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jun/30/healthcare-spending-world-country[/url]

Interestingly, among the figures is one that shows government spending on health as a percentage of all spending.

France:16.3%

UK: 16%

Go figure..

[Quillan]

[quote user="Théière"]

Amazingly or predictably you pull up the only information to suit your argument which thankfully the program didn't, it gave a balanced view. As in all walks of life and all jobs some people care and others don't about how well they perform their tasks for reward. Its repeated at 3am.

Did you also happen to catch how many people were treated?  I didn't as O/H decided to speak at that moment but Its a huge number every 4 hours, from a service that is being steered onto the rocks so that no one will mind if it's broken up and sold off to private Co's  Now I don't care about Tony B Liar or Gordon or This lot of lying B*stards. Politically things will have to change, Your old mate Nigel is looking very pleased about Cyprus.

But my original point is why remove money from the countries purse when it is needed to provide services? just for the shallow minded to waste on gambling? 

[/quote]

What I took away from the program was that there are some doctors that still see being a doctor as a vocation as did one of the students but how representative of the NHS as a whole is that when you take in to account the recent scandal of one large hospital trust?

One hospital in the whole of the UK had a special ward for the treatment of old people which helped them retain their dignity but to do so the chap in charge had to get extra funding. The work that he has done is truly excellent and to be much admired but should not all hospitals be treating their mature patients the same way?

The phenomenal amount of health care workers who would not recommend their hospital to family members (I believe it was as high as six out of ten). They also touched on feedback from patients and family via the 'Customer Satisfaction Forms' handed out in hospitals. What they didn't mention was how many forms are handed out and how many are handed in. One train of thought is people won't make negative comments else it effects negatively the quality of care the patient receives either straight away or at the next visit. This may not be true of course but it is how people perceive it.

If you speak out about bad nurses you are vilified and even threatened with a violence.

It is not just one hospital that is having severe problems with the standard of care offered to its patients.

There are without doubt some excellent hospitals and staff in the UK but there are also some bad ones. Everyone in the UK should get the same standard of care.

The NHS suffers from bad politics by that I mean being used as a political football by both Labour and the Tories. Fixing it does not come from politicians but from within the NHS.

In answer to your question I believe it was something like 1.2M people but  thought that was per day. Unfortunately I can't watch it on ITV Player to verify that. It would be interesting to know how that number stacks up against other western countries including of course France.

[Théière]

[quote user="Quillan"]

In answer to your question I believe it was something like 1.2M people but  thought that was per day. Unfortunately I can't watch it on ITV Player to verify that. It would be interesting to know how that number stacks up against other western countries including of course France.

[/quote]

I will try and see if I can watch it and find out but it was a staggering amount and the number of problems are small by comparison although I do agree that the small number still need improvement.

I have also witnessed appalling treatment of Nurses by patients and in one case I made sure that was logged. Patient must have thought they were next door in the Marriot not in a hospital was my remark.   

[Rabbie]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"][url]http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-01-03/frances-health-care-system-is-going-broke[/url]

And have a look at this: its only a couple of years out of date in terms of the input data.

[url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jun/30/healthcare-spending-world-country[/url]

Interestingly, among the figures is one that shows government spending on health as a percentage of all spending.
France:16.3%
UK: 16%

Go figure..

[/quote]Stastitics, as the Scottish Rugby coach said, are like bikinis, interesting for what they reveal but more interesting because of what they hide. What we need to know is how the money is spent. It may be that a disproportionate amount of the NHS budget is being spent on administration rather than on frontline staff and medicines.

In the 65 years since the NHS was founded medicine has changed. many conditions are now treatable with expensive drugs and people now live longer and so require more care than they did then. There is also the paradox of people wanting to eliminate the post code lottery and for there to be more local control on what is offered. Unfortunately with finite budgets it is not possible to supply every treatment willy-nilly regardless of cost so hard decisions have to be made.

[Quillan]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"][url]http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-01-03/frances-health-care-system-is-going-broke[/url]

And have a look at this: its only a couple of years out of date in terms of the input data.

[url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jun/30/healthcare-spending-world-country[/url]

Interestingly, among the figures is one that shows government spending on health as a percentage of all spending.
France:16.3%
UK: 16%

Go figure..

[/quote]

Answering your two posts, this one first.

I couldn't find the figures you mention but in the table at the bottom is says with regards to the percentage of GDP, France 11.9% and the UK 9.6%

It was interesting to see the amount per head spent on health care, the US spends $8,362 yet only $4,437 is from the state which according to my calculator means 53% of health cover is private (although strangely they quote 46.9%) compared to France where it is 22.2% which I suspect is the Mutual cover less those that receive 100% cover.

I think most western health care system run at a deficit, certainly the UK must because of ward closures due to money running out.

Your other post and I am sorry to hear your OH had such a problem.

This is my personal experience of the NHS in the UK i.e. what I have seen myself and not second or third hand nor read in the newspapers.

My nephew broke his arm got to hospital (Kingston), X ray taken, sent to get plaster, nurse attempts to put plaster on foot. Pointed out the X ray they were looking at was for a girl who was 5 years younger.

Father severed thumb remove broken pane of glass, very deep would stop bleeding. Went to Kingston hospital with him, waited four hours, thumb still bleeding, received rollicking for blood on floor.

Self, collapsed with pleurisy and collapsed lung, wife calls ambulance, hour later no ambulance, neighbour drives me to hospital (St Heliers Carshalton), waited three hours before given oxygen and another five before being given actual treatment, 12 hours before moving on to ward.

Father in respite care in Worthing, wallowing in own urine and feces, smell of old urine immediately you entered the place. Because he had respiratory problems and the ward was overcrowded they place him in front of open window, caught Pneumonia and died as a result but "then he was dying anyway". They placed his buzzer remote out of reach because he kept using it when he wet the bed and annoyed nursing staff.

Mother, fell on patio (after father dead) neighbour called for ambulance. I was phoned at work in London by neighbour, jumped in car drove to Angmering where she lived (just over an hour and a half) and the ambulance had still not arrived.

Mother, who had a previous history of mental health problems, gets breast cancer. Go with here six weeks after mammogram to visit GP and get results. GP tells her it is breast cancer and "well have it off as you don't need them at your age", not the words so much as the tone.

MIL had lung cancer (27 years after stopped smoking) has chemotherapy, sign on door about infection. Foreign nurses can't read English properly and wont go in room thin the sign said she was infectious rather than she has no immunity. No food or drink for 48 hours till wife arrives (St Barts, London). McMillan nurse turns up on day of funeral to treat her at home.

Self, has heart attack, placed in Cardiac Car Unit in Newham, excellent service, moved to ward, no clean sheets, bed against wall which when pulled out had dried blood on it form previous patient. Drug addict opposite who goes somewhere each night to get more drugs. 'Shoots up' in toilet, leaves drug stuff (needles, foils etc) in toilets which are sealed off till special cleaning team arrives. Old bloke in next bed taken for to have a colostomy bag fitted, came back an hour later, wrong bloke, he was due to go home that day. Me told not to get stressed because of heart problem so am left wondering if I should sleep else I might wake up with one. Told I had to wait a 14 days for angiogram so decided to go private. Never told ambulance had arrived because staff did not 'approve' of private hospitals and anyway were to 'busy' to tell me or the ambulance crew where I was. In fairness when I had my third heart attack they did take me to the CCU then on to The London Chest Hospital where I was stented he next morning. The London Chest does give excellent service but it is so old, bare boards on floors etc but the quantity of people that get sent there is massive and for stenting it is like a production line and as I mentioned before they get everyone out PDQ because they don't have the beds. After six weeks return to hospital, given stress test and told all OK and I didn't have to come back again ever. In France I am seen every year and given a stress test.

There are a few others (minor things) as well but the post is getting to long.

 

 

 

[Quillan]

[quote user="Rabbie"]

Stastitics, as the Scottish Rugby coach said, are like bikinis, interesting for what they reveal but more interesting because of what they hide. What we need to know is how the money is spent. It may be that a disproportionate amount of the NHS budget is being spent on administration rather than on frontline staff and medicines.

In the 65 years since the NHS was founded medicine has changed. many conditions are now treatable with expensive drugs and people now live longer and so require more care than they did then. There is also the paradox of people wanting to eliminate the post code lottery and for there to be more local control on what is offered. Unfortunately with finite budgets it is not possible to supply every treatment willy-nilly regardless of cost so hard decisions have to be made.

[/quote]

That reminded me about my arthritis in my knee and price justification. I get three injections in my knee every nine to ten months. The drug, not hydrocortisone, is excellent yet it is hardly used in the UK because of its cost and success rate. The success rate is about eight out of ten which for the NHS is apparently to low. In France the cost of the three jabs is 120 Euros for the materials (the price is on the box when I collect them) and 45 Euros for the specialist to inject them each visit, total cost 255 Euros or about £220. Considering that I can hardly walk without these injections in the UK I would probably receive a shed load of benefits (actually I would try to carry on but it is what I could be entitled to) which would be far more than the cost of the injections. So for eight of of ten people it could save the state money in the long run but far more importantly improve their quality of life immensely.

[Russethouse]

You know what, we get the NHS for all its ills for very little in the way of cost - what no one mentions is that there is nothing to stop anyone in the Uk paying for private health care if they are unhappy.

Q, Given the fact that your wife and you both have paying occupations and possibly a pension as well and the service you are getting falls so short in your eyes, perhaps you could lighten the load on our burdened NHS and Mrs Q could pay for her thyroid tests and xrays ?

[Rabbie]

How nice to see the spirit of compassion lives on here on the forum

[Russethouse]

Its nothing to do with compasion and everything to do with practicality - if you don't like the service you are getting, and you are in a position to do so then look elsewhere.

Last year I had a friend who had cancer, he was happy with his treatment, his non British partner was not, as it happened there was a private oncology unit at the hospital they were attending, I said the same thing then. We are not obliged to use the NHS, it's our choice, just as it can be our choice to have private medicine if we have the means.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

You know what, we get the NHS for all its ills for very little in the way of cost - what no one mentions is that there is nothing to stop anyone in the Uk paying for private health care if they are unhappy.

Q, Given the fact that your wife and you both have paying occupations and possibly a pension as well and the service you are getting falls so short in your eyes, perhaps you could lighten the load on our burdened NHS and Mrs Q could pay for her thyroid tests and xrays ?

[/quote]

It's like shop really where you are forced to go in and give them money but you don't take anything back. She pays per NI contributions but should she decide to go private she has wasted her NI payments which are quite high.

Personally I think people should have the choice to do what you like and that the NI should be run like a proper Insurance company. If you don't want to use it you can opt out providing you have alternative insurance in place. If you do then neither you nor your employer should pay your NI. Perhaps Employers could pay the same percentage they pay in NI to your private insurance company for your health care. You can then choose which hospital you use be it private or public. NHS hospitals bidding for BUPA operations if somebody prefers to be treated in one, the NHS hospital then gets paid the 'going rate' for the operation just like a private hospital.

Doctors should be forced to decide who they will work for, the NHS or go in to the private sector but not both. I mean there was I being treated within hours of arriving in a private hospital by the same bloke I was told I would have to wait 14 days for treatment under the NHS. I think that is actually disgusting, he should be forced to complete his NHS commitments before he goes gallivanting off to work in the private sector.

[NickP]

Q wrote     "Where on earth do you get this cr*p about "Yes in France it's necessary to have private health care". It is only a necessity if you don't pay in to the system because you are foreigner and are 'inactive', something the UK could learn from rather than give health care to any Tom, Dick or Harry that turns up and has never paid a penny in to the system. For the rest of us we, can't even get private health care, it is not allowed under French law, you have to be part of the state system. Many people don't even have a mutual either. No you don't continue to pay 'NI' in France when you reach state retirement age. In short you have not done your research and you are talking out of your bottom when it comes to France."

So you are saying that a Mutual is not private health care. Seeing as you have to pay for it, I don't understand your comment. A Mutual; if you pay the top contributions; gives you the right to use a Doctor charging above the bog standard rates in a private clinic. I think you will find that is private health care

As for your comment about not paying the French equivalent of NI after you retire, are you sure?

　"Although your pension will be exempt, all retired persons are liable for the social charges on any rental and investment income they receive". 

Maybe my bottom is not issuing as much miss-information as you do? [:P] 

[idun]

The wonders of NI contributions, how often do I hear it said that people have paid them all their lives for their pensions and now it is health care.

At least in France one knows what one is paying into what, as these payments are all separate.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="idun"]The wonders of NI contributions, how often do I hear it said that people have paid them all their lives for their pensions and now it is health care.

[/quote]

Hear hear, Idun: and the problem is that, according to whatever people are complaining about, it sounds like they're personally shoring up the NHS/Pensions Service on their contributions alone. Perhaps they'd get better service/more value for their money by walking into a hospital (or phoning HMRC) and saying "Do you know who I am?"

[Patf]

[quote user="idun"]The wonders of NI contributions, how often do I hear it said that people have paid them all their lives for their pensions and now it is health care.

At least in France one knows what one is paying into what, as these payments are all separate.

[/quote]

I don't know what proportion of the NI contributions I made during my working life (34 years) went towards my pension, but I guess they nowhere near covered it if I live to 80-90 yrs (not sure if I want that!)

But I think the NHS contributions were always noted separately on my payslips, in those days anyway.

[NormanH]

I have just caught up with this thread

NickP wrote:

Yes in France it's necessary to have private health care, and don't

those Doctors know it. Also I believe that in France you continue paying

"National insurance" after you retire? Well you don't in the UK even if

you go to work after the age of 65.

To clear up the differences between the systems:

1) People can choose  to pay a Mutuelle to 'top up' the cost of treatment which is not 100% paid for, but that Mutuelle often also covers such comforts as a private room. It is not compulsory, and many of the poorest don't need it as they are covered by the system known as the CMU

2) Retired people whose health care is the responsibility of France (that is French nationals and  those with French pensions for example)    pay a % of their pension and other income in social charges, but it doesn't work in the same way as it did when they were working. These charges come to around 7.5% of pension income. As idun says what you pay for is much clearer in France as each category is indicated on payslips, unlike the general 'National Insurance' contribution in the UK..

I believe that one way forward in the UK would be to introduce a NI contribution for those of Pension age. After all people still use the NHS after retiring so they could be expected to go one contributing.

[Rabbie]

I have always been under the impression that the NHS is paid for out of general taxation. Certainly access to NHS services does not depend on your NI contributions whereas your state pension does.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="NormanH"]

1) People can choose  to pay a Mutuelle to 'top up' the cost of treatment which is not 100% paid for, but that Mutuelle often also covers such comforts as a private room. It is not compulsory, and many of the poorest don't need it as they are covered by the system known as the CMU

[/quote]Which, in fact, makes the system essentially no different from choosing (in the UK) to subscribe to private medical insurance. Which covers such comforts as a private room, or private hospital..

[Théière]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hqC5nvARX5U

My Friend John Hamilton making that two faced liar Jeremy Hunts life a bit harder.

Keep it up John!

[Quillan]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]
2. Making my way to the hospital under my own steam, once I arrived, no-one would tell me anything - anything - until they'd seen my insurance: EHIC. And then all they DID tell me was to wait. Which I did. Patiently, for some four and a half hours. My OH, whose French is limited, was not aware of whether I was there or not, and I was not permitted to go anywhere near him, nor to be told what was happening to him or where he was.

3. Finally, he came out of a door, wearing a neck brace, and with his face still completely covered in his own blood. Clearly, the lean staffing levels in French hospitals preclude them from giving outpatients the dignity of wiping the blood off their injuries. He was followed by a doctor, who was about as French as I am, who shoved a prescription at me, and told us that if we wanted his x-rays we should go back the following day.

4. We returned the next day for the x-rays. Another hour's wait before we were given the envelope. Oh, and on leaving the hospital the first time, we were given a prescription. It's been about five years, now, and I don't think we'll EVER get through that quantity of Doliprane and Betadeine, unless we start bathing in it.[/quote]

Sadly Mrs 'Q' has had to use the services of A&E here in France on Monday and it is the first time for both of us to see exactly how it works. Some of what you have described is the same as happened to us but I asked and understand why.

Ambulances - Limited capacity, loads of kit as they all appear to have a paramedic on board (round here anyway) and firstly there is only space for staff plus patient and you could get in the way and also they are not insured to carry family and friends so I was told although the latter is not the prime reason.

Every one is seen by a doctor when they come in to access them and it includes handing over any medical cards but that does not stop them from carrying out treatment if you don't have them on your purson. Normally, as they use a cental computer system in France they can find them anyway by just entring your name and address. I was phoned the next day and told to bring our mutual documents in.

Anything involving the 'escape' of blood is done in a separate area and family are not allowed in. This is because of infection, to enter you need to take a special shower and put on 'whites' so they know you are free of germs. Only when they move the patient out in to the next bit of A&E can you go see them which is after the blood tests come back.

They give out very little information even when asked but this is a cultural thing in that they do tests, get the results then decide on treatment rather than make a guess as they go. In some ways that might be better because if your told only half the story your imagination may make it worse than it is.

We waited 1hr and 15 minutes from entering the hospital to being seen, I timed it. This is because I took her, ambulances and children take priority which I believe is the same in the UK.

They have 24 'boxes' (in Carcassonne) which I would call rooms with automatic doors, ten of which are for 'blood' accidents and are in a seperate area. There were two drunks bought in, one by the town police and the other by Gendarmes at around 22:30 which I guess is much like the UK these days. When we finally left A&E for another part of the hospital (she has to stay there, I would guess we would call it being sent up to a ward except they are rooms) there was only one patient left and there were about 18 to 20 staff sitting around waiting for then next accident to arrive.

It does get a bit frustrating at times but then it's different how they work but I don't think it means they are any better worse than the UK when it comes to actually 'fixing' you just that the service is very quick.

Every thing is done using a 'prescription' in France, get an X Ray, have a prescription, get a scan, get a prescription, even getting a bottle of water in hospital you get a bit of paper. It creates a trail so any doctor can see exactly whats been done, who asked for it, why and when it was done. Being on a national database means you can move from one end of France to another and the doctors see the same information.

So I am still impressed, excellent service and quick, much better than anything my family has had in the UK.

Mrs 'Q' will be in hospital indefinitely at the the moment.

[Théière]

Regards to Mrs Q, I hope it's all sorted soon and back home.

[YCCMB]

Sorry mrs q is in hospital, mr q.

I am not sure all the explanations you received are commensurate with the experiences we had, but this is not the time to argue the toss.

Suffice to say, I also "asked" and received a number of different answers. And the question as to why my covered-in-blood OH was returned to me after treatment still covered in blood will forever remain a mystery, I guess. Probably it costs extra to be cleaned up, though how they can investigate the extent of the injury without it is anyone's guess. We managed to pick the remaining pieces of road surface out of his face ourselves...

[Rabbie]

It seems that neither system is perfect and in some cases is well below what any reasonable person would consider adequate.

The problem with the NHS is that the government are trying to provide a gold star service with inadequate funding where it is really needed. It is always surprising how all governments seem to think the best way to eliminate waste  and excessive costs is to bring in very expensive management consultants to spend an inordinate time to produce a report which at best says what any competent person working  there could have told them or at worse comes up with no practical solutions at all.