Free NHS care for expats

[woolybanana]

Para 5 may be of interest to some: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/29/jeremy-hunt-immigrants-free-nhs-services

 

[idun]

Big loopholes, need bouching, and soon.

NHS can be quite brilliant, as we are seeing with two friends at the moment. When it moves into action, around here at least with serious illness, everything is 'quick' and informative and good and kind. And yet in some of it's general running it flounders and wastes money and ressources horribly.

[EuroTrash]

Why would a government's plan to try and stop people abusing the system be described as 'controversial'?

No, don't answer that.

[Russethouse]

Surely there would need to be some parameters, how long would you need to pay in for before you were entitled to NHS treatment for life, even if you are an ex pat, for example ?

How long would an immigrant have to pay in for before becoming entitled etc?

And what happens to those who are ill before they have qualified....'emergency' treatment would need to be pretty well defined

As Idun says, this proposal would need a lot of work.....

[Quillan]

[quote user="Russethouse"]Surely there would need to be some parameters, how long would you need to pay in for before you were entitled to NHS treatment for life, even if you are an ex pat, for example ? How long would an immigrant have to pay in for before becoming entitled etc? And what happens to those who are ill before they have qualified....'emergency' treatment would need to be pretty well defined As Idun says, this proposal would need a lot of work.....[/quote]

"The changes will also protect UK expatriates by giving them access to free NHS healthcare for life once they have paid national insurance contributions for 10 years. At present, anyone living permanently outside the UK faces paying for NHS care they receive"

Yet another reason to have a National ID card. Alternatively a system similar to France with a Carte Vital. If you don't have one you pay, if you do and its valid (check via a computer same as France) then it is free. Trouble is unfortunately rather than buy an existing IT system and simply change the language the UK likes to have it's own built for it at the cost of billions of pounds which at the end of the day does not work anyway.

When Mrs 'Q' was in hospital recently within 24 hours (she was admitted via Urgencies) I had a phone call to bring her Carte Vital and our Mutual to the hospital. I can't see any reason why this can't work in the UK other than the reason of than a bunch of jobsworths objecting.

[Frederick]

 "Proposals include tightening up systems for claiming back costs from EU

visitors' home countries when they use the NHS: the coalition believes

the system fails to identify thousands of Europeans every year,

effectively giving them free healthcare. "

Like the parents of some of the young East European EU members who have been working here a while and  are brought over and I take to hospital for their  cardiac and cancer treatment .

I hope they get to claim back every penny .  

[Quillan]

[quote user="Frederick"] "Proposals include tightening up systems for claiming back costs from EU visitors' home countries when they use the NHS: the coalition believes the system fails to identify thousands of Europeans every year, effectively giving them free healthcare. "

Like the parents of some of the young East European EU members who have been working here a while and  are brought over and I take to hospital for their  cardiac and cancer treatment .

I hope they get to claim back every penny .  

[/quote]

I read somewhere a while back that the reason Spain was charging Brits for healthcare was because the UK has a reputation for not paying up on time. I doubt the UK is the only one either.

[YCCMB]

What makes me laugh is that so many people (usually the SAME people who moan that, compared to the French system, the NHS is C88p) assume that "Europeans" (not "people like us" for we are a separate and distinct breed, of course) are flooding into the UK for the sole purpose of abusing the NHS. Really, you can't have it both ways. Either it's rubbish and emigration to France is probably going to save your life, or it's so excellent that people from all over the world are flooding into the UK to take advantage of its services. Which is it?

Let me tell you, and I know gazillions of these Johnny Foreigners, that amongst those of my acquaintance, the vast majority fly home at the slightest sign of ill health, to get treated in their own countries. See, the thing is, that whilst "we" can simply trawl the internet and its many "expat" forums for the ubiquitous "English speaking" healthcare professional. many fairly competent English-speaking foreigner types do seem to prefer their healthcare professionals to be speakers of their own native language. Why, I even have one student from the USA (who, BTW has taken the Citizenship Test, lived here for going on 10 years and has a British passport) who pops back to the US for an annual check-up and to get routine Ob-Gyn tests, dental treatment and so on.  (Apologies for the flurry of inverted commas...I am hard pressed to otherwise indicate my tacit disapproval)

Yes, there should certainly be a tightening up of debt recovery for anyone who receives treatment and who should pay. God forbid, however, that the UK ever becomes another USA, where the dispensing of treatment is based on ability to pay, with need coming a very poor second.

[Russethouse]

Has anyone ever pointed out to your American friend that there is private treatment available in the UK too.......

[YCCMB]

Yes, as I said, she's been here for the best part of 10 years! However, she prefers to do her regular check-ups etc. in the US. Organising private medical plans for employees of the company she works for actually fall within her job remit.[:D]

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

[quote user="Quillan"]

"The changes will also protect UK expatriates by giving them access to free NHS healthcare for life once they have paid national insurance contributions for 10 years. At present, anyone living permanently outside the UK faces paying for NHS care they receive"

[/quote]

I may just qualify for that. Worked in the UK from when I was 18 til 28 beforeI moved over to Australia.

Thing is, I don't have any card or anything so I probably don't even exist in their system anymore. I didn't tell anyone in the UK I was leaving either.

[idun]

 Just a question, do private health care people actually do emergency care, ie if someone has a heartattack etc, can they be rushed to a private A&E???

[Gardengirl]

[quote user="Quillan"]

[quote user="Frederick"] "Proposals include tightening up systems for claiming back costs from EU visitors' home countries when they use the NHS: the coalition believes the system fails to identify thousands of Europeans every year, effectively giving them free healthcare. "

Like the parents of some of the young East European EU members who have been working here a while and  are brought over and I take to hospital for their  cardiac and cancer treatment .

I hope they get to claim back every penny .  

[/quote]

I read somewhere a while back that the reason Spain was charging Brits for healthcare was because the UK has a reputation for not paying up on time. I doubt the UK is the only one either.

[/quote]

Not just Spain - France as well.

Dear readers, in case you're wondering, my husband eventually had his op in a private UK hospital, under the NHS. He stayed for 2 days for day-case surgery, as he was a little unwell, but had to be admitted to the Royal Berks NHS hospital the same night, as he became very unwell indeed, and was kept in for 3 more days. He's now absolutely fine, and we're back in France, enjoying this lovely sunshine.  [:D]

On the morning after my husband was admitted late at night as an emergency case into a public hospital in Nimes, I had a phone call at around 08.00 on my way to get the first of 2 buses to visit him in hospital. It was the hospital on the phone, demanding to know when I would be arriving with his EHIC card and passport. I had assumed it was my husband phoning for something he wanted me to take in for him. My husband said later that he'd already told them that I would be arriving by 11.00; apart from taking a 95€ taxi, that was my only option.

On arrival at the hospital before 10.30 I waited in the queue at reception, to be told that colleagues were far too busy to see me and to come back after lunch, as it would take too long for the required 2 dossiers to be prepared before lunch. This despite the phone call to get there quickly with his documentation. The surgeon was waiting to take my husband for a procedure and needed the dossier - and it wasn't till the surgeon spoke to them by phone - from upstairs - that they decided that however inconvenienced they were, they would have to get on and do it - with plenty of shrugs in my direction. I had to pay a 'caution' of 75€ after the dossiers had been prepared and photocopies had been taken of EHIC card and passport.

Despite having these full details of my husband on file, they insisted on a cheque for 750€ as a caution before they issued his paperwork to leave hospital 6 days later - and of course they don't take credit cards! I also paid 18€ per day for him being in hospital (126€) on top of that. I was told quite clearly that the caution wouldn't be returned until 'your government' paid their government. I did get my original 75€ cheque back that day, although they insisted for quite a time that it didn't exist. This happened in mid-March, and the cheque finally arrived in UK on June 19th, 2 days before we set off back to France. That's 3 whole months for paperwork to be sent off, our country to deal with it and return paperwork to France, plus the time it took the letter containing the cheque to arrive at our home in England.

I was told by the department in Newcastle that I should have insisted on not paying anything at all, as the EHIC card was proof of entitlement. But when you're faced with a husband waiting for a procedure because staff are being awkward, or with having a loved one's discharge held up for what seem to be similar reasons, you end up being put in a very awkward and upsetting position - and I'm not one who's easily put out.

Now, without wanting to boast, my French is pretty good and I'm fine in all sorts of situations in France - for example, I'm on the conseil syndical of our block of 52 apartments and deal with the managing company, the gardener, the pool cleaner, the cleaner and the boss of the cleaning company regularly - I'm often the only member out of 4 of us on the CS who's around; the 3 French members are often in Paris and in Spain. The hospital experiences weren't a case of language, just the way things were done at the hospital.

My experience backs up what Quillan says about payments in Spain and maybe other countries. Bad enough for people fluent in the various languages - really awful for those bewildered by the language of somewhere they've just gone to for a week's sunshine - and then, of course, those who don't have the money to pay such a sum without repayment for 3 months.

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

That's unbelievable gardengirl.

I wonder what would have happened if you refused to pay. Would they have done nothing?

[Quillan]

There are two separate issues here I think, none EU immigrants and EU immigrants. So lets talk about EU immigrants as I don't know enough about non EU immigrants.

The EU created legislation which says.

"Every EU citizen has the right to reside on the territory of the host EU country for a period of up to three months without any conditions or formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport."

and in the case of job seekers,

"EU citizens benefit from the right to reside without any conditions and formalities for a period of six months and even longer, if they continue to seek employment in the host EU country and have a genuine chance of getting work."

The legislation then goes on to say,

"Workers and self-employed persons have the right to reside without any conditions other than being a worker or self-employed person. The same right applies to persons who temporarily provide services in the host EU country."

Now this is the bit about people not working.

"Other economically inactive persons (e.g. unemployed, retired, etc.) must also have sufficient resources for themselves and their family not to become a burden on the host EU country’s social assistance system during their residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover."

Some people reading the last bit will remember what happened in France when they integrated this legislation in to their own.

The problem is that there is much hysteria in the UK press about the EU creating legislation and that the UK immediately abides by it when in reality a lot of the laws they are talking about come from the European courts which are nothing to do with the EU. The UK just like other EU countries picks and chooses which laws it wants to integrate in to its own. Unfortunately the UK decided not to integrate any of the above EU legislation which is really what it should do rather than try and reinvent the wheel because it will be different from the EU legislation no doubt, will be dragged through the courts and the ECHR for years and years during which time a shed load of money will be spent on healthcare and social assistance on those other EU nationals that are not actually entitled to it for free.

Now there is a certain element amongst the Brits who live in France, Spain and a few other countries that refuse to join the healthcare system there, they burn both ends of the candle to suite their own needs. They come to France, Spain or were ever on one of these European healthcards get emergency treatment in these countries for nothing then jump on a flight back to Blighty to get more treatment there. So they get away without paying any tax or social payments in both countries.

Personally, seeing as I, like many other Brits who have come to live in France, pay my taxes and social contributions here and it annoys me that these people are so morally bankrupt that they have no problem abusing the system in France and in the UK.  I know a few people who do this and I have no problem telling them what I think about what they are doing. You know what they are up to because when challenged they go red, mumble then walk away.

Mind you the French are stupid to. They had a perfect working system that required everyone to have an ID card then the removed that requirement for EU citizens. That in my opinion was a very, very, big mistake.

Sorry about so long a post.

[PaulT]

[quote user="idun"] Just a question, do private health care people actually do emergency care, ie if someone has a heartattack etc, can they be rushed to a private A&E???


[/quote]

No, they just like the easy elective stuff and leave the emergency (high cost) stuff to the NHS.

In the US the private hospitals provide emergency care and, unless it has changed, provide it for all at no charge. There are signs up to say 'that is all you get free'.

The other big waste of money is the cost of projects that do not go ahead. In my time in the NHS I experienced the government of the day saying that they would fund the building of a new unit to house a service that was being relocated from elsewhere. Full architects plans were drawn up with all that entails and then at the last moment the government said 'here is a couple of million see how you can squeeze it in'. This entailed bringing back in to service an 1800s building that had been shut a fair time and another from the 30s that was in quite a state.

Now, the government having agreed to fund the demolition of a block and to replace it with a new larger block enabling the relocation of a number of services basically pulling the plug. The scheme was ready to go including plans for the temporary facilities to locate the services from the old block - plenty of consultants on board, architects drawings, meetings with the Local Authority etc. So another waste amount of money wasted.

The NHS needs more business minded masters and less knee jerk political masters.

Leads on to the governments pledge to reduce public sector workers - all that happens is that services are put out to contract and businesses make money out of the public sector. Still as many working in the public sector but not all directly employed by the public sector.

[Gardengirl]

[quote user="Mr Ceour de Lion II"]That's unbelievable gardengirl.

I wonder what would have happened if you refused to pay. Would they have done nothing?

[/quote]

Richard,

the situation was such that I didn't even consider that. I was

just so pleased to get my husband back to the apartment in one piece and

without him being overly disturbed by the wait. Of course, nobody

upstairs on the ward had any idea of what was going on downstairs.

Just to make it clear, we are British citizens, who pay taxes in England and who have always had sufficient insurance cover for wherever we happen to travel to. We've been taken ill in a few locations over the years, but have never had this sort of problem before. We hope it will be the first and last time, but of course it hasn't put us off France one little bit - apart from thinking that we might choose the hospital at Bagnols if we needed emergency treatment such as that in Nimes, as I'd hate to meet up with a situation like that again, and I know a senior person in Bagnols hospital, who told me that such a situation shouldn't arise.

I must stress that my husband's treatment in Nimes couldn't be faulted; for example, the surgeon and nurses were standing by when we arrived by taxi at about 21h, and had 5 drips by his bed ready to be inserted. The GP we saw was also superb, trying to arrange scans over what he cursed as the stupid French lunchtime (he's French).

The treatment at the NHS RBH at Reading was also first class, and the regime which we saw in place to stop cross-contamination, avoid DVT etc was excellent. We're lucky to have this wonderful hospital, when so many places have had very sad events at hospitals in other towns.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="Mr Ceour de Lion II"][quote user="Quillan"]

"The changes will also protect UK expatriates by giving them access to free NHS healthcare for life once they have paid national insurance contributions for 10 years. At present, anyone living permanently outside the UK faces paying for NHS care they receive"

[/quote]

I may just qualify for that. Worked in the UK from when I was 18 til 28 beforeI moved over to Australia.

Thing is, I don't have any card or anything so I probably don't even exist in their system anymore. I didn't tell anyone in the UK I was leaving either.

[/quote]I f you ever come back to the uk I doubt if you will have any problem finding out your NI number which will have all your previous contributions.

when I returned to the UK after 10 years working abroad it just took a phone call to get my NI number

[YCCMB]

I'm probably some kind of freak, (Yes, OK...) but I can remember by heart my NI number, NHS number and bank account number/sort code.

[Russethouse]

I know my NHS number and have done for years, I once met the chap who had the same letters and was next numerically, it was like winning at bingo....:-)

[nomoss]

[quote user="Quillan"]

............... Mind you the French are stupid to. They had a perfect working system that required everyone to have an ID card then the removed that requirement for EU citizens. That in my opinion was a very, very, big mistake.........

[/quote]

Sorry to quote only part of your post, Quillan!

I agree it was illogical, but it is not quite correct that the Franch unilaterally decided to remove the requirement for a Permis de résidence. This was a result of EU legislation in around 2004. Something to do with freedom of movement, but I don't recall the exact details.

The same thing happened in Spain at about the same time. My last Spanish Residencia expired in 2007, so I didn't bother to renew it, although it continues to be accepted for identification.

I have just seen that Spain is apparently reintroducing Residence Permits for EU citizens staying more than 90 days http://www.tumbit.com/how-to-guides/articles/2-applying-for-residential-status-residencia-eu-citizens.html

I think there may be some connection with the recent increase in Brits leaving Spain complaining about punitive new taxes[:D]

I think it may only be a matter of time before France does something similar.[:D]

Cats among pigeons springs to mind.

 

 

[Quillan]

[quote user="nomoss"][quote user="Quillan"]

............... Mind you the French are stupid to. They had a perfect working system that required everyone to have an ID card then the removed that requirement for EU citizens. That in my opinion was a very, very, big mistake.........

[/quote]

Sorry to quote only part of your post, Quillan!

I agree it was illogical, but it is not quite correct that the Franch unilaterally decided to remove the requirement for a Permis de résidence. This was a result of EU legislation in around 2004. Something to do with freedom of movement, but I don't recall the exact details.

The same thing happened in Spain at about the same time. My last Spanish Residencia expired in 2007, so I didn't bother to renew it, although it continues to be accepted for identification.

I have just seen that Spain is apparently reintroducing Residence Permits for EU citizens staying more than 90 days http://www.tumbit.com/how-to-guides/articles/2-applying-for-residential-status-residencia-eu-citizens.html

I think there may be some connection with the recent increase in Brits leaving Spain complaining about punitive new taxes[:D]

I think it may only be a matter of time before France does something similar.[:D]

Cats among pigeons springs to mind.

[/quote]

Your sort of right and I quote

"Residence permits for EU citizens have been abolished by the Directive and replaced by registration certificates, which shall be issued in a much faster procedure."

Basically and of course it is up to each country how and if it does this you should register when you arrive which then determines if you have the right to either an initial three or six months ability to stay. I suspect this is what Spain is instigating and I suspect France will to. I think the way France will go is you either have a state pension from the UK and are therefore retired and can have an S1 or you are tax resident. At the end of the three or six month period and if your not retired or tax resident you have to prove you have enough money in the bank and have private health insurance else your out. However I can’t see the UK going down this route somehow. It doesn’t take any of the good EU legislative bits.

If your wondering where I keep getting these quotes from then the simple version is the link below to the document in which also they show where to get the fuller version of the treaty and legislation.

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/policies/citizenship/docs/guide_free_movement_low.pdf

 

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

[quote user="gardengirl "][quote user="Mr Ceour de Lion II"]That's unbelievable gardengirl.

I wonder what would have happened if you refused to pay. Would they have done nothing?

[/quote]

Richard,

the situation was such that I didn't even consider that. I was

just so pleased to get my husband back to the apartment in one piece and

without him being overly disturbed by the wait. Of course, nobody

upstairs on the ward had any idea of what was going on downstairs.

Just to make it clear, we are British citizens, who pay taxes in England and who have always had sufficient insurance cover for wherever we happen to travel to. We've been taken ill in a few locations over the years, but have never had this sort of problem before. We hope it will be the first and last time, but of course it hasn't put us off France one little bit - apart from thinking that we might choose the hospital at Bagnols if we needed emergency treatment such as that in Nimes, as I'd hate to meet up with a situation like that again, and I know a senior person in Bagnols hospital, who told me that such a situation shouldn't arise.

I must stress that my husband's treatment in Nimes couldn't be faulted; for example, the surgeon and nurses were standing by when we arrived by taxi at about 21h, and had 5 drips by his bed ready to be inserted. The GP we saw was also superb, trying to arrange scans over what he cursed as the stupid French lunchtime (he's French).

The treatment at the NHS RBH at Reading was also first class, and the regime which we saw in place to stop cross-contamination, avoid DVT etc was excellent. We're lucky to have this wonderful hospital, when so many places have had very sad events at hospitals in other towns.

[/quote]

Absolutely. You do all you have to to get your partner through, and then worry about how difficult they've been after. I just wondered what would have happened had you not did what you did. Would they refuse treatment?

[Pommier]

To return to the original posting, is the UK government saying that so long as a person has paid 10 years NI, they are totally covered for NHS treatment? Wouldn't that create a situation where people living overseas who need medical attention can return to the UK solely for the treatment/operation? I thought that was something the government (or was it the Daily Mail?) opposed with talk of rich expats making use of NHS facilities.

[idun]

 Is this all journalistic hype???

So a 20 year old british citizen never leaving the country, but not paying in........ wouldn't be covered?????

All needs looking at that is for sure.