Perhaps we should reflect on this

[richard51]

An enquiry after Cast Lead showed ZERO evidence of Hamas using civilians etc as human shields however it DID find evidence of Israel using captured Palestinians as human shields - again a war crime.  Israel did this again in the Shujiyah massacre of a few days ago.

[Russethouse]

Increasingly I think that the answer to this is in the USA, stop arming the Israelies and stop money being transferred there from the US......saying its unacceptable isn't enough....

[richard51]

By the way you might want to choose your sources more carefully - MEMRI is Washington based extreme right wing mouthpiece for the Israel government.

[Russethouse]

Moi? I have just seen a US senator say 'it unacceptable' on the BBC news.......and he was talking about Israeli action....

[richard51]

Totally agree, RH.  Likewise the UK government - who sent more military weapons to Israel than China and Saudi combined.

Its entirely hypocritical for the US to condemn Israel while simultaneously and voluntarily restocking Israel's arsenal before Congress breaks for summer recess.  This restocking is on top of the $3bn a year it is providing in military aid.  The US sends more 'aid' to Israel than it does to the entire African sub continent.

EDIT Not referring to you RH, MEMRI was a source quoted by Quillan.

Arms sales are entirely motivated by profit with complete disregard for human life.  If there were better international controls over arms sales maybe Russian separatists, ISIS etc wouldn't be armed to the hilt - and our own soldiers wouldn't be facing arsenals of weapons manufatured but a few miles from their home towns. 

One of the more 'sick' outcomes of the wholesale slaughter of Gazans is that Israeli companies like Elbit have seen their stock rise by 30% as their products can now be sold as 'field tested'....on women and children.

[Quillan]

So the UNRWA are liars then because your account varies conciderably with theirs on their website and what they have been saying in the News both TV, radio in the UK and French press.

If you read the text they complained and asked for the weapons to be removed. They never said they removed them themselves not if indeed they had been removed by the Palistinian terrorists who put them there.

At the very start you tried to cover your bottom by saying

"Quillan, a while ago, asked why I described in a post the difference between being a Jew and Zionism. To reiterate, Judaism is a religion whilst Zionism is a political movement. The former no problem, the latter a problem."

Well Zionists are Jews, Zionism is a Jewish movement formed by some Jewish chap back in the klate 1800's to create a homeland for them (the Jews).

The people I was having a go at were the UNRWA who seem to have acted rather stupidly resulting in many innocent deaths.

I am as much of a support of Israels actions in this matter as you are an anti-semite.

For the eleventh time (I counted) I repeat any killing is wrong for whatever reason.

[idun]

Now I have a problem with anyone saying anti semite, as I have always thought that  palestinians were semites?  Is that incorrect?

[Benjamin]

One statistic that I find very difficult to get my head around is that two thirds of the population of Gaza is under the age of 16.

It wasn't until I heard it twice on the BBC that it dawned on me.

[Patf]

Idun - you have to look back to biblical times to see the connection. Semite is derived from Shem , one of the 3 sons of Noah.  Several nations are descended from  him including Arabs and Jews. And their languages are similar.

More than that, according to the Bible, Arabs and Jews are step-brothers, Abraham was their father , 2 different mothers. That's where all the trouble comes from, each believe they have an inherited right to the Holy Land.

And that's why it will never be sorted (imo).

[woolybanana]

Is it my imagination or is Israel beginning to lose the propaganda battle for the first time?

[Patf]

You must be joking Wooly. One of the things the Israelis are weak on is  propaganda via the media.

They don't really care what people think of them (but it's about time they did.)

[Quillan]

I agree with Pat there Wooly. Yet another cease fire and yet another broken, each side claiming it was the other, like kids in the playground except people get killed in this game. It can be sorted if people on both sides really try hard enough. The Israelis will not sit in the same room as Hamas, bit like the IRA and the UDF. There will come a time, just like in NI, where something will happen which will force them there. Sanctions first to stop arms going to both sides and then an uprising in both countries by the general public like the women did in Belfast. Once both sides realise that their own people have turned against them and that they can't get anymore guns and bullets we might and it is a big might see them forced to the table and to talk. Oh look a flying pig just passed by.

I also think there is a certain amount of apathy towards both sides and the war there amongst many in the West. We have the nutter Putin to deal with and the escalating situation in the UKraine with him not to mention some are scaring people by suggesting there might be WW3 at any moment. I also think another part of the apathy is that it has been going on for so long that people now are starting to think "you know what, I just can't be arsed with it anymore". Not very helpful to the innocent people getting killed on both sides but then you can see why many think that way.

[idun]

Anyone an islam expert?

Does anyone know what that religion says about it's idea of death and the afterlife when civilians are killed in such a conflict. I know that the jihadists believe that they will go to heaven and get all the virgins and little boys etc,but what of the rest of the population?

I ask, as it may have some impact as to how hamas views these civilian deaths. If they consider them as martyrs with the same fast track to paradise....... then could they consider these casualties be in some way acceptable?

Patf, I thought that I had read or been told something along those lines.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="Patf"]You must be joking Wooly. One of the things the Israelis are weak on is  propaganda via the media.
They don't really care what people think of them (but it's about time they did.)
[/quote]But for the first time yesterday I heard a US spokesman condemn Israeli action describing the attack on the UN school in Gaza as indefensible. Israel needs to realise that after 70 years the world is beginning to feel that that the holocaust no longer gives them carte-blanche to act as the victim.

In the present conflict with Hamas Israel needs to follow the British action in Northern Ireland where despite IRA attacks on Britain there were no indiscriminate attacks on Catholic areas of Belfast or Derry. Every Gazan citizen killed by Israeli  weapons just prolongs the conflict.

If this situation is ever to be resolved it needs Israel to take the brave decision to change tactics. Perhaps they should follow the example of Mandela and find a way to do a deal with apparently intractable enemies.