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Perhaps we should reflect on this


richard51

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1zsuTpczu0&feature=youtu.be

Quillan, a while ago, asked why I described in a post the difference between being a Jew and Zionism. To reiterate, Judaism is a religion whilst Zionism is a political movement. The former no problem, the latter a problem.

Look at the inner politics of Isreal: Ashkenazi Jews came as mainly zionists, whilst Mizrahi Jews came for religious reasons. Ashkenasi treat Mizrahi like ****.

Why does the EU follow the US in backing such disgusting behaviour?

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Hamas fire rockets knowingly from civilian populated areas, targetted at civilians. Israeli army fire shells and missiles into known civilain areas and opress the population of Gaza.

In the battle for scumminess there is no clear winner here just civilians caught literally in the crossfire of politicians who can't resolve it. Take the political posturing out of it (as always) and sit a normal Israeli family in a room with a normal Palestinian family and they will respect each other as human beings.

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[quote user="greyman"]Hamas fire rockets knowingly from civilian populated areas, targetted at civilians. Israeli army fire shells and missiles into known civilain areas and opress the population of Gaza.

In the battle for scumminess there is no clear winner here just civilians caught literally in the crossfire of politicians who can't resolve it. Take the political posturing out of it (as always) and sit a normal Israeli family in a room with a normal Palestinian family and they will respect each other as human beings.

[/quote]

And the politicians are bankrolled by..........................?

Yes, still down to money.  Politicians have sold their souls to business and money interests.

I am appalled by what is happening in Gaza.  Neither side listens and neither side is really willing to make compromises.

No good any politician wringing their hands in public whilst privately benefitting financially.

And when I say "politicians", I mean entire countries; the US, Britain, you can work out for yourselves which country benefits the most.

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You need to go back in time to 1993 when Hamas was created by a group splitting with the now banned Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. You then have to move forward to 2003 when Yasser Arafat became seriously ill and resigned his position as leader of the PLO, PNA and FATAH and died in 2004 after (what we now know) a long illness in France. He negotiated the Oslo agreement which lead to peace between Palestine and Israel. He more than anyone helped bring peace to the Palestine. In the 2003 elections Hamas won a landslide victory and became the new Palestine government. You can read more HERE and there are other resources on the web if you want to read about Hamas.

After the 2003 elections Hamas stepped up its attacks on Israel placing missiles in schools, flats (inside and on the roofs) believing that Israel would never attack the launch sites and if they did there would be a massive world outrage against them. They also continued to dig tunnels across the border for their suicide bombers to enter Israel and kill people on mass. Remember the school bus bombings as an example?

The weapons bought by Israel can be extremely accurately targeted and were bought because they could possibly save innocent people from getting killed around the target.

So Hamas is a legitimately elected group elected by the Palestine people so therefore have the 'permission' of the Palestine population to carry out the attacks in the past and currently.

This latest set of attacks revolves around the abduction of three Jewish boys and their murder after which some Jewish idiot decided to kill a Palestinian boy in revenge and the whole situation has escalated to where we are now. If Hamas had any decency they could have either looked for the perpetrators of the Jewish boys murders, as could the Israelis, even better both sides could have worked together to find and punish them.

Today I see that during the 'cease fire' Hamas launched over 20 rockets at Israel towns and villages and naturally Israel has counter attacked. Both sides are terribly wrong, innocent people are getting killed and both sides are equally as guilty. Unfortunately and like many I cannot see an end to this and certainly comments by the likes of Tony Blair don't help matters. The right thing to do initially I believe is to put UN peacekeepers into both countries along their borders with authority to capture any arms used by one country to attack the other. The problem is this is a situation where peacekeepers would really be the meat in the sandwich and nobody is brave enough or stupid enough to do it.

As to Chris Hedges speech, well he really needs to do his research if he wants to put forward an unbiased view. Each attacks the other so to point the finger at just one is totally unacceptable. The only thing I can agree with is his comments about the holocaust but then I would like to think 99% of the western world thinks the same.

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You have to be kidding with this about jewish factions, why is it any different to sunni's and shi'a's or protestants and catholics?

Please do not forget that non religious jews in Israel cannot marry and only recently have some sort of civil partnership!

So 'we' non believers are very badly treat!

What is beyond me is the number of children in Gaza. Such a small strip of land, how can the parents afford to educate, feed, clothe these children? Where does that money from?  That I do not understand or where their weapons come from, who pays for all that. *

 I admit that it probably suits hamas to send their rockets or whatever into Israel from areas with lots women and children, although most areas are probably heavily populated anyway.

IF either side wanted peace, they'd have it, they don't, neither side does. Look at Northern Ireland, some still do not want peace.

*I no longer give to any charity that supports anything to do with humanity, other than in the UK or France. nb I give to animal things, because boy do the poor beasts need it.

I am 61 years old and would dearly love to know why the world is not at peace with a restrained population and no more starvation and educated children all over the planet...... what happened to the money 'I' and others put in all those years ago with such a promise and our 'giving' going on  for years and years and years, that'd be two generations ago to recently...........where did it all go? so WHY don't we have a decent planet, it feels worse now and even nearer disaster than it did when I was a child and it was the cold war.

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[quote user="NickP"]I never thought the day would arrive when I would agree with John Prescott, but today he said "Gaza is a concentration camp and the Israelis should be charged with war crimes"[/quote]

I can't ever remember reading anywhere where people could launch hundreds of rockets from within a concentration camp.

Have a thought for the Palestinian woman who is told that her children have just been killed by an Israeli bomb hitting their school because Hamas has put one or more rocket launchers there. Then have a thought for the Israeli father who gets a phone call at work to tell him all his family has been killed by one of the rockets launched by Hamas from said school that has hit his home. This is why you cannot under any circumstances point the finger at just either Israel or Palestine because they are both guilty of horrendous crimes against humanity. Finally do not forget that those in power on both sides were put there by the people of the respective country in democratic elections.

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How many rocket sites were there on the beach where four boys playing football got killed by Israelis?The guilty party here are the Israelis, end of. We're only defending ourselves, yes, that's why they have murdered over a 1000 people.
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[quote user="NickP"]How many rocket sites were there on the beach where four boys playing football got killed by Israelis?The guilty party here are the Israelis, end of. We're only defending ourselves, yes, that's why they have murdered over a 1000 people.[/quote]

And what about the Shmuel HaNavi bus bombing where 28 children were blown to bits by a Hamas suicide bomb and a further 130 women, children and babies were wounded.

Yes I have seen the figures banded around in the press about approximately 1000 Palestinians being killed by the Israelis but I have also seen the figures for the Israeli civilians killed up to and including 2008 which were between 885 and 1,156 depending whose figures you use. For some reason it seems very difficult to find figures after 2008 but I would suggest that it now must be well over a thousand at least.

I will repeat that you cannot blame just one side they are both a bad as each other. As Idun said if there was any real desire for peace both sides would find a way.

I am afraid it is not as simple as you wish to make it look.

 

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Idun, towards your answer please re-watch the video. It was posted on youtube in 2010 and the guy is an expert journalist on global terrorism. Zionists are in the process of trying to ethnically cleanse Palestine of Arabs whether they be Israeli Arabs or not.  Further there is great amount of discrimination towards Jewish non whites (mizrahi)

One irony in labelling some wanting to support Palestinians as terrorists is that the formation of Israel in 1948 followed terrorism by the Zionists themselves.  What is missing in much of teh reporting is context.  This is not a fight between two equal sides but rather part of an ongoing process of occupation and ethnic cleansing that started in 1947.  Gaza is a ghetto in the same way that Warsaw was a ghetto.  It's population are impoverished with no army, navy or air force and trapped on all sides while being mown down by the fourth largest military on earth backed by the most powerful.

 

American motivation for supporting Israel for so long is probably hinted at with Mints comments: money.

One good thing is that nowadays we have social media which gives us instant reporting of events with raw images and footage from Palestinians themselves that has not been subjected to editorial censorship by the, largely Zionist controlled, mainstream media. With less time for facts to be turned into propaganda people can hopefully judge better themselves.

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[quote user="NickP"]I'm not trying to make anything look simple at all, but as you obviously swallow the Israeli propaganda , believe what you want if it makes you feel better.[/quote]

You clearly have not actually read anything I have written nor have you taken the time to find out for yourself. People being killed regardless of their sex, race, religion or whatever is wrong and also you can't have a 'war' without two sides, it is impossible. Ask yourself this, why has Israel asked for more Apache helicopters and more fighter bombers from America. Here is a clue, they keep being shot down. If you believe your own propaganda then it can't possibly be Homas as they have no weapons so who is doing it?

As to the schools being used to fire rockets at Israel then I take you you consider Norway, Sweden and The Republic or Ireland to be pro Israeli as it was their and only their UN inspecters who were permitted into Palestine and who located the places from whence the rockets were fired.

Yes you are making it simple and to quote your own words "The guilty party here are the Israelis, end of.". If that is not a simplistic comment then I don't know what is.

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[quote user="idun"]So why won't they make peace? Some one please tell me why!  Isn't as if no one hasn't tried to get them to the negociating table is it?



This has been going on since I was but a girl and still is.
[/quote]

Because some people don't want it and why I don't know. Yasser Arafat tried very hard at the Madrid Conference in 1991, the Oslo Accord in 1993 and at Camp David in 2000 yet Hamas the current elected ruling party in Palestine consider him a traitor and have overturned the peace treaty he signed with Israel. If you look at the number of deaths on both sides between 1991 and 2004 they dropped to almost nothing i.e. about one suicide bombing/missile firing a year and little reaction from Israel, Once he died and Hamas were unleashed by the voters it has all escalated again. It’s a bit like NI where peace has been made but there is still a hardcore group (like The Real IRA) that does the occasional bombing killing innocent people. You also have to consider that their moral compass, or should I say our moral compass, is quite different to them. We are quite different cultures and it is difficult to understand the mentality of both sides. By the way America gave Arafat $1,3bn for negotiatng a peace treaty with the Israelies according to his will which as he died in France and under French law as you well know all his finacial dealing has to be declared for his estate which went to his daughter Zahwa Arafat (only child and his wife also died in 2004).

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You do come out with some crap. I never said Hamas didn't have any weapons at all. Please, put forward your own pompous thoughts but don't make out I'm saying things I am not. The reason Israelis want more helicopters is so they can kill more Arabs. I have not recently heard of any apache helicopters downed by Hamas, if they had You can guarantee we'd have all heard about it.
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[quote user="NickP"]You do come out with some crap. I never said Hamas didn't have any weapons at all. Please, put forward your own pompous thoughts but don't make out I'm saying things I am not. The reason Israelis want more helicopters is so they can kill more Arabs. I have not recently heard of any apache helicopters downed by Hamas, if they had You can guarantee we'd have all heard about it.[/quote]

Well you wrote them, they are there in black and white. Would we have heard about Apache helicopters being shot down, I wonder. Why have no casualty figures by year been published by the Isrealis since 2008, are they saying that none have been killed, I doubt thats true hence there must be an agenda. Likewsie they don't say how many of their soldiers have been killed by year nor how many of their weapons have been destroyed yet we see film with burning Isreali tanks in the background.

I guess when your loosing an agrument personal attacks are the next best thing and if somebody gives as good as they get you cry fowl as always.

I notice you never took Grayman to task who has basically said the same as I by the way. Anyone would think you just pick on me.

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And so it kicks off. If you want to know why there is no peace, just read this thread. If some of the contributors had the means, it not too far a stretch to see it escalate from words, to stones, to rockets....
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OK, Q show me where I said Hamas doesn't have any weapons. Also why are you bringing other people into this?Tactics of a loser, your clutching at straws mate. As for personal attacks you'd know all about that, while hiding behind your "mods" hat.
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[quote user="NickP"]OK, Q show me where I said Hamas doesn't have any weapons. Also why are you bringing other people into this?Tactics of a loser, your clutching at straws mate. As for personal attacks you'd know all about that, while hiding behind your "mods" hat.[/quote]

You see you always go off on something that you think refers to you (you must have some chip on your sholder). I was actually passing general comment on the YouTube video where the guy is saying that the Israelis are using high tech weapons against those that don't have any but if you had at least listened to what he said you would not jump to a conclusion that I was talking about you.

I said the same as Greyman in that it is six and two threes, both sides are equally to blame which I have maintained in the majority of my posts and is my belief on this subject IF you ever bothered to read them instead of just 'firing your bullets' blindly.

I also notice in your posts that you have now 'moved' from Israel wanting to kill the Palestinians to now wanting to kill all the Arabs("The reason Israelis want more helicopters is so they can kill more Arabs."). This is somewhat raising the game and whilst Israel does have nuclear weapons I doubt very much that they would ever use them even against Palestinians and Hamas or the whole Arab population in general.

As to your last sentance like the first day you bought this up to today I still don't have a clue what your talking about.

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But nobody can deny that it is not a fight between equals; equally armed, equally strong.

Bully boy tactics, however explained away, cannot be condoned.

As for those poor hovels of places that some call "home", it can't make the most militant feel good about destroying those?

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[quote user="richard51"]A useful place for stats is here.

http://www.btselem.org/

It unfortunately doesn't say how many Israeli helicopters have been shot down though .


[/quote]

But it's stats come from the Israel Security Council so how good are they? Interestingly I see the record of how many rockets and mortors were fired at Israel stop in March (31st) 2013. But for those that can't get to them (it is very slow to load for some reason) I will reproduce them below from the following link.

http://www.btselem.org/israeli_civilians/qassam_missiles#data

Year

Rockets

Mortar Shells
201315

-
20122,157

175
2011418

258
2010 146

211
2009566

287
20082,048

1,672
20071,276

1,531
20061,722

55
2005 401

858

How accurate they are is anyones guess especially because of the source. This is one of the big problems, there is so much on the internet and to be honest I have yet to find any two websites that give the same information. The following link is not too biased but again its 'numbers' differ from some of the other websites which also begs the question of how acurate is the rest of the text. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_war

 

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