Snipes

[Théière]

[quote user="Harnser"]Oh, please - don't try to legitimise the total farce that was the leave campaign.

It was a barrage of lies and promises that could not be kept, promulgated with the sole purpose of garnering leave votes.

And now the UK and us are stuck with the shabby result.[/quote]

Not forgetting the total farce of the remain campaign.

The Advertising Standards Committee should have removed all of the Adds as they failed many of their standards. (Honest and True)

Still we plucky Brits have always enjoyed showing others how it could be done and hopefully we haven't become too EU'ised to get back some of that pluckiness.

As to people and their share portfolios, It's only gambling with some wide boy, red braces wearing Essex flash harry acting as the bookie.  They love the chaos as it makes the markets jittery which is how they make their money, they don't really care about your money/pension etc.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="idun"]I have to admit that I am getting thoroughly fed up about all the snipes on here concerning the brexit vote.

It was done under the current voting system, and legally and above board.

How would those of you who are against brexit felt if it had gone the other way, and I had been constantly saying that it would serve you all right and you would see the folly of your 'stupid' actions, because that is how it feels at the moment.

I would have said, as I still believe, that the EU needs a major overhaul. And that all countries then adhere to the rules  and not as is the current case where the UK had a genius for implementing EU rules at break neck speed, where as even Germany does not.

None of us know what the future holds. I make plans for the worst case scenario, because in truth, our lives could get very complicated, but worry about it, no, I won't waste my time on that.

[/quote]

Which sums it all up well, idun.

The growing disquiet and antipathy by increasing numbers of Europeans against the EU is well founded, I believe, as stated by Baron Acton:

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."

 The head movers and shakers of the EU have been on a power gig and such vaunting power has led them to believe a bigger EU is a better EU. Allowing in ex-Collective Communist States, still in the early process of changing from collective to sort of capitalist economies was a step too far and much too early.

EU Commissioners are democratically unaccountable: describing the parliament as "Democratic" is wholly risible; since adding together the groups of smaller Eastern states, in terms of their total population, number of MEPs and annual contributions clearly demonstrates the lack of equity. These power-crazy honchos are utterly determined to force through the concept of federalism; once EU wide system of tax and fiscal policy: one EU wide legal system etc. These were the dream, of course, of such as Jean Monnet et al right back in the late 1940s and early 50s. Much of this was tabled in the Treaty of Rome, 1957. It was just that Heath etc, glossed over the obscured realities.

Interesting how Holland and Merkel and others are conspiring to try and preserve their abuses of power: despite mounting resistance.

Here:

Corollary is, of course, not "We must do what the voters in majority wish.", rather, "We must do anything to prevent the voters doing what they want!"

Democracy?

The elitist arrogance, personal self-interest and venality, is very well illustrated by this news snippet:

Here:

Core problem is, as elsewhere stated, a vast majority of voters are utterly ignorant of the true facts and incapable of owning a valid opinion. In majority, of all those I have discussed this with over the past year, they are persuaded only by their own narrow selfish wants and little else. Even when and where these will not enjoy any continuum.

Perhaps this myopic perspective is best summed up acquaintances I discussed the concept of the UK joining the Eurozone (Which I was wholly against, for structured monetary, fiscal and financial reasons). These people had built up a very successful business employing around 40 people and made considerable wealth (Which mainly, they have now lost...).

The wife stated. "As you know, we travel around Europe quite a bit and I like the idea of only having to use one version of money!" Then: "I know all about it; I read about in the Daily

Mail.."

Speechless!

[:'(]

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Théière"][quote user="Harnser"]Oh, please - don't try to legitimise the total farce that was the leave campaign.

It was a barrage of lies and promises that could not be kept, promulgated with the sole purpose of garnering leave votes.

And now the UK and us are stuck with the shabby result.[/quote]

Not forgetting the total farce of the remain campaign.

The Advertising Standards Committee should have removed all of the Adds as they failed many of their standards. (Honest and True). [/quote]

Couldn't agree more, T.

Dave and Gideon, Carney at the Bank of England, the group of major UK companies chairs, Chamber of Commerce, CBI etc. They all lied through their teeth.

More critically, various outside people, (Soros, Goldman Sachs, J P Morgan and Co, loads more) who had no vote or, as my US friends like to say "No dog in the fight", spend hundreds of millions to try and skew the vote. Why? Only and purely since they were all part of the same elitist globalising uber-money power groups who have tainted US politics and increasingly, UK politics for simply their own selfish ends.

[quote]As to people and their share portfolios, It's only gambling with some wide boy, red braces wearing Essex flash harry acting as the bookie.  They love the chaos as it makes the markets jittery which is how they make their money, they don't really care about your money/pension etc. [/quote]

Again, couldn't agree more.

When Thatcher enacted Big Bang and the City exploded in frenetic activity, we were told (and the gullible believed it!) it was all going to be wonderful! anyone who foolishly bought this snake oil believed  we would all be running around in Rollers. etc.

The harsh realities have been rather different. The FTSE has been at its highest ever level; exec pay has rocketed; corporate profits have shot up in strides.

 However pensions have been savaged, on the grounds the employers "cannot afford them any more!". and so on. Yet, City traders (the Essex-type flash harries as you say) have still been earning obscene amounts of money.

Umm..

[8-)]

[lindal1000]

All of this 'who lied the most' and who has said who is or was stupid is all well and good, but it doesn't address the issue of what the future of the UK relationship with the EU..ie what does brexit mean?

What compromises will have to be made?

The first 'hurdle' for the government will be the high court cases in October that review whether or not article 50 will need to be debated by parliament..

[Rabbie]

[quote user="lindal1000"]The first 'hurdle' for the government will be the high court cases in October that review whether or not article 50 will need to be debated by parliament..[/quote]As a scot who wants to remain in the UK I hope that the government will not use  the royal prerogative  to authorise the Article 50 application but puts it to a democratic vote in Parliament to avoid giving the SNP a chance to hold another Indyref

[lindal1000]

Me too Rabbie . One of the actions is being brought by a group of British people living in France.

http://www.itv.com/news/2016-08-05/british-expats-in-french-town-bring-legal-challenge-to-brexit/

[alittlebitfrench]

[quote user="lindal1000"]Me too Rabbie . One of the actions is being brought by a group of British people living in France.

http://www.itv.com/news/2016-08-05/british-expats-in-french-town-bring-legal-challenge-to-brexit/[/quote]

De I feel sorry for Dave and Gab in that video complaining about house prices and all that ?

They moved two months before the vote. Should they not have waited ? Seriously !!!!! I would have done.

They have moved into an expat area with hundreds of other British expats. With or without Brexit, house prices will always be at the mercy of exchange rates and other economic factors because there is little demand from the French for houses in those types of areas.

They have not done any homework and so made the same mistakes as thousands before them. If they had moved into a 'normal' or 'mainstream' area of France they would not be in this situation. If they have to move back, they just sell their house at the same price/or more than they bought it for and move back. But that might mean not living in a former convert (like you do) with a nice swimming pool. You can't have all your cake and eat it Dave and Gab.

The reality being that most people in France can't do what they have done. Sold a house at an inflated price to a buy a house with a pool and live the dream in the middle of nowhere. I dare say those doing the arduous commute in and out of Paris everyday and having to work until they are seventy will probably not really give a monkeys about Dave and Gabs predicament.

They clearly have no idea what is going on politically and socially in France at the moment and probably don't care. To be fair, Brexit is the last of their worries. Especially with a young child.

So Brexit or not their life in France will always hang in the balance. That is not living the dream.

[lindal1000]

A bit off the point though.. but there are plenty of people down here who are doing just that and have been for years. They may well be unaware of the political situation in France but in that case so are all the French people who live here all the time. The South West in general is a very laid back place.. Even the day after the terrorist attacks in Paris, Bordeaux was calm, nothing much was any different.

The whole point of the Lauzan group is not to influence Paris but, along with several other groups launching similar campaigns, to influence the UK. As recent arrivals the couple still vote in the UK and probably were chosen as spokespeople because their link to the Uk is still apparent and recent, and as new arrivals, if free movement is lost they won't have lived in France the required 5 years to qualify for permanent residence.

[NormanH]

"House prices"

are  an addiction for so many British people, and if you scratch the surface, by far the  main reason for moving. Rather than wanting to move to France, which is a place with its own imperfect way of life, culture, social and political system and history, they seem to simply wish to stay in Britain with cheaper houses, and, in places, a better climate.

I can see why such people (not the group mentioned in the video, but similar) wouldn't want me in their club.[:D]

[alittlebitfrench]

I agree with the above. Which is not a problem but the point I have always made is that not many French people would do the same. We could sell our house in 'normal' France and move to that area and pay off our mortgage and we have the benefit of being half French and integrated into the system. Would we do it, No. We would be committing economic suicide. We would undoubtedly have to move back to 'normal' France eventually and probably be a lot less well off than when we left. It is the same thing. If these people had any clue about France they would not have moved. I am sure of that.

So like I said it is not just a question of Brexit. The threat of their success of living France is France. More so in such areas. But they don't see that. They will one day of course. France has changed so much in the last 6 years especially for families. It is becoming hard enough for French families to survive nevermind expat ones. They are a young family and will be hammered by taxes. Then there is healthcare and pensions to pay into. University and the rest of it.

Unless France changes, it is all going to end in tears for them Brexit or not. By there own admission they already can't afford to move back. They have simply been seduced by house prices but do not understand the larger picture. Houses in France are not cheap in any area.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="NormanH"]"House prices"

are  an addiction for so many British people,

[/quote]

Mainly, Norman because the British governments (all stripes) since the late 1960s have only managed to create a sort of economic feel good factor, by, in final desperation, exploding the economy with a synthetic "Boom" created simply by slack money.

Think back: Heath-Barber early 1970s, the first modern Boom-Bust: Thatcher-Lawson mid to late 1980s, Boom-Bust: Blair-Brown, 2,000s The mother of all Boom-Busts.

By 2003-4, UK residential house prices, represented around 66% of the TOTAL capital value of GB plc! (Source: ONS Annual Wealth of the Nation Survey).

Which is utterly, crazily insane. The old sacrosanct relationship between gross earnings and house prices (Average House Price = 3.5 X Gross Income), was finally consigned to the dustbin, in the insanity of Brown's "Miracle Economy", where the fight on the high street between banks and other mortgage lenders exploded into crass stupidity. lending ratios, normal was 8X salary, some were up to 10! Tenor (life of mortgages) up to 40 years! LTV (Loan To Value ratio up to 130%.

This, plus the consumer credit bubble which also ended in tears - surprise - was mainly created by a combination of lack of state oversight and regulation, "Liar Loans" (where borrowers self-certified earnings), and a certain supposedly "Hard" Eddie George, Guv, of the B of E.

The Bank's MPC (Monetary Policy Committee) decided in July 2003, to seriously slash base rate to 3.5%; and this caused the synthetic asset price boom and debt bubble. George admitted this in evidence to the Commons Treasury Select Committee on March 2008.

See Here:

Fixation and obsession with house values, (rather than as a place to live in and make a home) has also been stoked by endless property porn programmes and equally lascivious Make Over, nonsense.

[lindal1000]

I think a lot of people choose to come to France to step off that 'house prices' ladder. Many do mistake of buying bigger and more expensive than they need, but some don't and manage to reinvest their equity into something that will bring in an income. The closer you get to Paris though, the more like the UK it becomes, where it actually costs you money to go to work. (When I stopped work I saved about £500 per month, because that's what it cost to commute, buy work clothes, buy lunch, pay for the gym membership because it was too dangerous to go running at night, pay the government my hefty contributions, pay the expensive mobile phone contract I needed so I could be contactable all hours, and pay for the cleaner and gardener because I didn't have time after work, commuting and then more work in the evenings).

The reason housing is so expensive in the UK is because there has never been enough. It's never been any different in my lifetime. Supply and demand..you put a property up for rent or sale in certain areas and you get 10 enquiries by the end of day one.

[alittlebitfrench]

Gluestick, the French are obsessed with house prices too but largely because houses in France (contrary to popular belief) are so fecking expensive. Expats don't get that. In that respect you are right, a house becomes home.

The paradox is that a 150 k euro expat convent in the Lot with a swimming pool is probably 10-20 times more expensive than a 500 k euro 40sq metre tiny box in some suburb of Paris or other major city. Those moving to France for cheaper houses are buying something more expensive than they had in the UK. Its a trap.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]

The paradox is that a 150 k euro expat convent in the Lot with a swimming pool is probably 10-20 times more expensive than a 500 k euro 40sq metre tiny box in some suburb of Paris or other major city. Those moving to France for cheaper houses are buying something more expensive than they had in the UK. Its a trap.[/quote]ALBF, I would be grateful if you could explain this paradox for me. It is not obvious to a UK dweller like me my this should be the case.

[Gluestick]

Indeed, Rabbie: I don't comprehend this either?

[8-)]

[Gluestick]

When Mrs Gluey and I bought our place in 2002, onwards from there, Pas de Calais was flooded with starry eyed Brits, hoovering up wrecks and turning them into their dream home; nightmare more like.

Those who had decided to move permanently to Normande and Bretagne, where prices were much cheaper, were trying to re-create the sort of house on Nob Hill Surrey. They sold their UK house at top of a then inflated market, rushed off to la belle and without thinking, evaluating, checking and proper strategy, proceeded to spend all their dosh on a place which would never ever see the total cost back.

Ran out of cash and decided, "We will have to work!". Not speaking adequate French or understanding the culture, one I spoke to could only find gainful employment at low wages in an abattoir, plucking dead chickens on an assembly line......

Lovely.

Well, that was a big improvement in lifestyle, eh?

[:-))]

[nomoss]

[quote user="Gluestick"]When Mrs Gluey and I bought our place in 2002, onwards from there, Pas de Calais was flooded with starry eyed Brits, hoovering up wrecks and turning them into their dream home; nightmare more like.

[/quote]

Would you like to share the reason you came to France?

[Gluestick]

[quote user="nomoss"]

Would you like to share the reason you came to France?

[/quote]

Pleased to. At that time, we planned to relocate, permanently. Since we were both engaged in demanding careers, we surveyed elsewhere in France and finally decided on Pas de Calais, since it was easily commutable for long weekends. Normandy was clearly not.

Forsooth! In the early days I often came over for the day to cut the grass!

However, as it will, the pattern of life, where our carefully developed strategy collapsed, started with the wholly unexpected death of my practice manager, who was going to take over for a few years and then, herself, relocated to Southern Spain and we would run a cross-border practice, for a few years advising and assisting ex-pats; she in Spain and me in France.

The pound collapsing to near parity put any forward plans on hold.

We had looked at Spain (which we used to love, before the flood of the type of Brits we would never ever want to be around! [Www]) and the rash of nasty made up to look like Andalusian houses and over-development destroyed that.

We had been to Cyprus, twice; that was ruined by the invasion of the Russian Mafiya and then joining the EU and Euro mechanism. We even considered Barbados, went there and had a good look around; not for us.

I knew France pretty well and much enjoyed and respected its culture and lifestyle.

Why did we and still do, want to leave Blighty in the first place?

Due to a majority of my professional work, it was utterly obvious to forecast where Britain was headed from the 1980s, onwards.

The house in Pas de Calais was purchased as a project. Improve; expand, sell and then locate in the South.

Very comfortable and "Livable In": however, prices collapsed totally as we know, thus apart from minor improvements and essential maintenance, it has stayed very much as it was.

What now?

Waiting and watching and enjoying the property as a Maison de Vacances.

[alittlebitfrench]

Well it is down salary really and the cost of living.

Someone working in Paris will earn lets say 70 K per year in a given job. Exactly the same job in another city in France and the salary will drop to 30-40 k. In rural France the chances are (if you can find the same job) will pay maybe nearer the minimum wage.

There are exceptions to the rule of course but the point is wages are not uniform across France like they are in the UK . On top of that, the taxes you pay (comparatively) are the same in all areas of France, and the cost of living is more in rural France.

So in rural Frances houses are very very expensive in comparison to your level of income and your costs are higher. Why do you think people build cheap new houses ?

So yes you can sell your 400 k house/flat or whatever in France and buy a house twice the size in the Lot at third of the price with a swimming pool and pay off your mortgage. So you have a 100k in the bank and no mortgage, but if your income in rural France is only paying off your living costs and taxes then over a lifetime that house becomes very expensive. Especially when you have kids.

Furthermore, in cities your house will appreciate in value whereas in rural world in won't. Anybody of my generation in France moving rural would be committing economic suicide.

[nomoss]

Thank you Gluestick. Not having looked properly at your location I hadn't realised you still live in the UK.[8-)]

It's interesting to see that you have similar reasons for leaving the UK to ours in 1980, when we moved to Mallorca.

We also loved mainland Spain, which we had known since the 1960s, and wanted to move there, away from busy (and expensive) Mallorca, which was great for our business, after I sold it, but we too disliked the way it had changed by 2000.

We maintained an apartment as our residence in Spain, but spent much time in a house my wife had bought in France some years before. We continually looked for a nice place to live in Spain, saw uncountable houses while prices were soaring, and moved definitely to France in 2003.

Now of course we are glad we didn't buy a house in Spain when prices were so high there. We were extremely fortunate to sell the apartment with no loss (nor gain) in 2005, mainly because it was in a place (Roses) more favoured by French than Brits.

[lindal1000]

I suppose if you thinking about earning enough to sustain a certain type of lifestyle and want to earn enough to leave something for your kids that might be true. Our French neighbour moved here 5 years ago from Northern France and lived on his unemployment for a couple of years, He then set up as an artisan and is certainly not short of work. He employs his wife and son and his daughter is starting at University next year. (She is devastated by s the brexit vote as she wants to study modern languages and was hoping to do some of her course in the UK). I don't know whether he could charge more if he worked in Paris or not.

We definitely came here for a lifestyle change, and so far it has worked out..but then we never intended that that lifestyle would involve sitting around doing nothing. In face we work very hard, but we have flexibility as to when and what we do. I guess you could say we are the ultimate economic migrants.

[NormanH]

I take ALBF's point that apparently cheap property is in fact expensive if you look at the employment opportunities and average salaries in the surrounding area.

A good source of information for these is l'Internaute

Here is the information for Béziers for example :

http://www.linternaute.com/ville/beziers/ville-34032

You can see 22.3% unemployment (and that is low in comparison to the figures for the young)

Workers' salaries 1401€

Housing; http://www.linternaute.com/ville/beziers/ville-34032/immobilier

[Gluestick]

I see: thus your illustration and sort of rule is a comparative rule. Agree.

That said, it is the same difference for most capital cities, considered on a benchmarked basis.

Very much true for London, for example. Plus the easily accessed commuter belt (Surrey; Kent; Herts; even Sussex and Hampshire etc) have experienced commensurate cost-of-living prices rises, pari passu.

Perhaps the very best exemplar of this idiocy, has to be Silicon Valley, California. It became utterly impossible for nurses, school teachers, firefighters et al to afford accommodation, rented or bought, in such places as San Jose (I was there for two months working on a project in late 1984). The lower paid were thus facing a commute, by car of two hours each way. The main artery, the Route 101 was madness even at 07.00 AM: when I was showering and shaving at 7.00 AM I could hear the constant thunder of heavy traffic from my motel room: and that was quite some distance away.

I believe the key rule to living in rural la belle France, for incomers, other than those earning a fortune on a skills basis (I have met a number), is a great place to retire or semi-retired; running perhaps gite biz.

Interestingly our commune presents with a population of around 140: the majority of whom are French nationals and retired. The main employment is at places such as Crystal d'Arque, in St. Omer. Again a commute.

However, Pas de Calais is rather different, for many reasons and I do not think or believe it can be considered "typical" of France. The French culture and lifestyle is much more entrenched, further South; even in Loire.

[NormanH]

However, Pas de Calais is rather different, for many reasons and I do

not think or believe it can be considered "typical" of France

I believe that they even have to suffer the depreadations of a certain  WB [6]

[Gluestick]

[quote user="NormanH"]However, Pas de Calais is rather different, for many reasons and I do

not think or believe it can be considered "typical" of France

I believe that they even have to suffer the depredations of a certain  WB [6]

[/quote]

Still one tiny benefit of the EU I guess; at least they straightened bananas out!

[:D]