Joe Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Is there a point to all this violence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 The shooting of Mr Duggan seems to have sparked the trouble http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023543/Mark-Duggan-using-gun-shot-dead-police.html I suspect a lot of people with other axes to grind (or too much disposable time) have joined in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 This article hits the nail on the head:http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/looting-fuelled-by-social-exclusion"A generation bred on a diet of excessive consumerism and bombarded by advertising had been unleashed, he added. "Where we used to be defined by what we did, now we are defined by what we buy. These big stores are in the business of tempting [the consumer] and then suddenly these people find they can just walk into the shop and have it all."In other words materialism "[Looters] quickly see that police cannot control the situation, which leads to a sort of adrenalin-fuelled euphoria – suddenly you are in control and there is nothing anyone can do."and the power of the mob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarkkent Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Very interesting, Norman.Do you think that there might be a tenuous link to the problems being experienced by, and attibuted to, the Murdoch empire? Since "newspapers" like the Sun and NoW have been instrumental in dumbing down people's expectations and moral values, promoting celebrity and yob culture, chavism and instant gratification? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSKS Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 If only it were Belfast then they could use rubber bullets, tear gas, water cannon and have live ammunition to hand. But of course the thugs are not responsible for their own actions, are they. They are merely the poor, innocent victims of consumerism. What a crock of sh1t! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 This video clearly shows that this is neither a protest nor a riothttp://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkfz32_london-riot-clapham-junction-08-08-2011_newsMaterialistic greed gone mad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSKS Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Yes, Greed. But then rarely do civil disturbances have any real motive other than to release the atavistic instincts of thugs and other inadequates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Not deprivation or poverty or racism as money has been chucked at this community over decades and it has all gone down the plughole because basic policing and law and order were put aside, allowing the growth of a lawless culture in the name of multiculturalism. In addition, the laissez-faire education system has served this community badly, keeping them in a ghetto.Parents need massive support and there needs to be a very firm, zero tolerance approach towards gun, drug and gang cultures.The current rioters are just criminals or those out for kicks - remember that many who rioted recently in central London came from wealthy middle-class backgrounds.In short, the left has been burned by its own petard, or perhaps that should be molotov cocktail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5-element Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 [quote user="JK"]Yes, Greed. But then rarely do civil disturbances have any real motive other than to release the atavistic instincts of thugs and other inadequates.[/quote]Perhaps you mean "effect" rather than "motive". Many civil disturbances are, for instance, an attempt at democracy, and at dislodging tyrants. Unfortunately, the thugs and criminals and lowlifes jump on the bandwagon and distort the initial aim, so that is an effect. The initial aim of many civil disturbances comes from more noble and legitimate motivation than plain greed, ignorance, or plain thuggishness. Think Martin Luther King. Think abolition of slavery. Think of women having the right to vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Many of the parents are the thugs that were trouble in the 70's and 80's .... I think they will be delighted if little Tommy brings them home a new flat screen TV . The appeal to report people who suddenly turn up with goods they cant account far will fall on deaf ears in that community Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbie Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 The unemployed in these areas do not have a lot of money to spend on luxury items. There are are not enough jobs for them. They are exposed to a lot of materialistic advertising. Is it surprising that they feel frustrated? In today's climate of lack of discipline is it surprising that it boils over into riots? In some ofthese areas there are third or fourth generation unemployed. They see and hear of bankers receiving large bonuses for messing up the economy. This does not seem to be a particularly british problem. We had plenty of footage of riots in the Paris suburbs last year and I am sure the underlying reasons are similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Morally bankrupt, that's the UK now.Who is there to set standards and to look up to?MPs, greedy, dishonest. The police with the newly-resigned Met Chief, thinking it's fine to stay at a luxury health farm without paying and unable to see any conflict of interest in that.So called celebrities and culture "icons"....greedy, spendthrift, over paid for their meagre talents.Bankers and people in the city, equally greedy and irresponsible.Them and Us, you bet! Too many divisions and no one prepared to condemn blatant contraventions of social order and deal with it firmly.As to these looters, I saw a man repeatedly hitting at a glass window for easily 10 minutes and then, when he didn't manage to break it, he threw his stick over the air to land it on other people.I wouldn't hesitate to pick someone out like that and shoot him. The rest of the thugs would soon scatter, I can tell you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 The unemployed in these areas do not have a lot of money to spend on luxury items.Funny that because on Breakfast they were discussing how these riots have been partially organised by using some sort of Blackberry messaging system - seems they have the money for expensive phones......[:@] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbie Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 [quote user="sweet 17"]Morally bankrupt, that's the UK now.Who is there to set standards and to look up to?[/quote] HM the Queen - God bless her[quote user="sweet 17"]MPs, greedy, dishonest. [/quote] Nothing new there! They have always been accusing each other of this for hundreds of years.What do we expect when there are such inequalities of wealth in British society and these differences are getting larger now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 [quote user="Clarkkent"]Very interesting, Norman.Do you think that there might be a tenuous link to the problems being experienced by, and attibuted to, the Murdoch empire? Since "newspapers" like the Sun and NoW have been instrumental in dumbing down people's expectations and moral values, promoting celebrity and yob culture, chavism and instant gratification?[/quote]What they need to do is get up west! Practice run tonite on Golder's Green.[:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 [quote user="sweet 17"]Morally bankrupt, that's the UK now.[/quote] That's not only very offensive but also built on gutter journalism and sensationalism - there are millions of ordinary upright moral people in the UK - and frankly I don't think we need to take any lessons from France, when were the last riots there ? Not long enough ago for France to be morally superior for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickP Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 [quote user="pachapapa"][quote user="Clarkkent"] Very interesting, Norman.Do you think that there might be a tenuous link to the problems being experienced by, and attibuted to, the Murdoch empire? Since "newspapers" like the Sun and NoW have been instrumental in dumbing down people's expectations and moral values, promoting celebrity and yob culture, chavism and instant gratification?[/quote]What they need to do is get up west! Practice run tonite on Golder's Green.[:D][/quote]Only an idiot like you PPP would think this situation is funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 [quote user="5-element"][quote user="JK"]Yes, Greed. But then rarely do civil disturbances have any real motive other than to release the atavistic instincts of thugs and other inadequates.[/quote]Perhaps you mean "effect" rather than "motive". Many civil disturbances are, for instance, an attempt at democracy, and at dislodging tyrants. Unfortunately, the thugs and criminals and lowlifes jump on the bandwagon and distort the initial aim, so that is an effect. The initial aim of many civil disturbances comes from more noble and legitimate motivation than plain greed, ignorance, or plain thuggishness. Think Martin Luther King. Think abolition of slavery. Think of women having the right to vote. [/quote]I agree, but this time the balance seems towards simple theft.I also agree that it is not surprising given the example from above with banker's bonuses etc.The roots are in ideas such as 'There is no such thing as Society' and 'if you pay peanuts you get monkeys' which equates what you earn and can buy with your value, and in then deregulating markets, so that the 'strong' come out top.In a system where there are no longer any social values it is only a matter of time before those at the bottom find their feet and try to clamber over those above, finding their strength in the power of the mob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 [quote user="NickP"][quote user="pachapapa"][quote user="Clarkkent"] Very interesting, Norman.Do you think that there might be a tenuous link to the problems being experienced by, and attibuted to, the Murdoch empire? Since "newspapers" like the Sun and NoW have been instrumental in dumbing down people's expectations and moral values, promoting celebrity and yob culture, chavism and instant gratification?[/quote]What they need to do is get up west! Practice run tonite on Golder's Green.[:D][/quote]Only an idiot like you PPP would think this situation is funny. [/quote]Just idiotic joking.Better idea! Trash the Olympic Stadium.And as a gesture send their tickets back.[:P] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Norman, I'm sure you know this really but 'There is no such thing as society' is a cheap quote - the whole is : "I think we've been through a period where too many people have been given to understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope with it. 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant.' 'I'm homeless, the government must house me.' They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation."Frankly I think that is pretty much the right idea ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Where were the Bankers Bonus 20 or more years ago ? I recall when I worked in London if you wore and gold items on show travelling on the Northern Line there was a good change of being mugged and your gold item would end up in Brixton . This is crime carried out by people who are not short of cash. They are doing it because they can and know they will get away with it . With the Blackberry and Face book they can gang together to do it better . Until they are frightened to go onto the streets and behave like they are they will carry on and this will spread .It has already started in other cities . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose (& Greyman) Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 All this talk of those at the bottom, underclass etc is total b***ocks. They are at the bottom because they are lazy, feckless and scum. Being in a gang is not a career, robbing and thuggery is not a career. Both are lifestyle choices. This moral bleating for the poor souls is frankly sickening and some thought should be given to hardworking people whose livelihoods and homes have been destroyed by these low-lifes.My father was born the fourth child of deaf and dumb parents in the slums of the Meadows in Nottingham. His father died when he was 2 years old. He was 7 when the war started. He left school at 14. He never felt the need to join a gang, loot a shop, rob a person, assault a policeman. He brought up 2 sons who went to University. He worked hard, he had morals, he contributed to society. To hear that these 'poor' kids with their Blackberries are doing this because they have the same background as him is utterly disgusting. Theya re doing it because they are greedy and immoral and it's time the rest of society threw the book at them. They don't need policing they need rounding up by troops and putting in camps and then made to learn the work ethic.These are the children of Blair and Brown and the celebrity culture. Take what they can for as little effort as possible. And before anyone raises bankers etc. I put them in the same category, it's not an excuse for the current violence. [:@] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 [quote user="Russethouse"][quote user="sweet 17"] Morally bankrupt, that's the UK now.[/quote] That's not only very offensive but also built on gutter journalism and sensationalism - there are millions of ordinary upright moral people in the UK - and frankly I don't think we need to take any lessons from France, when were the last riots there ? Not long enough ago for France to be morally superior for sure.[/quote]Er.....where exactly did I say that France was "morally superior"?And why do you just take one statement of mine and remove it completely out of its context? I did go on to explain, in quite some detail, why I thought the UK was morally bankrupt. I gave several examples from public life to prop up my own statement.You ought to know by now that I rarely say things without explaining why I say them. Unlike some on here, and I don't need to name names, I am not in the habit of knee jerk reactions or sound off without, at least in my own mind, justification for my opinions.So....are you going to remove my post now?[6] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 [quote user="greyman"]All this talk of those at the bottom, underclass etc is total b***ocks. They are at the bottom because they are lazy, feckless and scum. Being in a gang is not a career, robbing and thuggery is not a career. Both are lifestyle choices. This moral bleating for the poor souls is frankly sickening and some thought should be given to hardworking people whose livelihoods and homes have been destroyed by these low-lifes.These are the children of Blair and Brown and the celebrity culture. Take what they can for as little effort as possible. And before anyone raises bankers etc. I put them in the same category, it's not an excuse for the current violence. [:@][/quote]I don't see much evidence of moral bleating in this thread, and it's a little late to speak of "before anyone raises bankers etc"..they have already been mentioned.I would see the roots earlier than Blair and Brown, in the period that launched the power of the Murdoch press, and deregulated markets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachapapa Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Earlier! Sybil, Earl of Beaconsfield! At the very least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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