Not AGAIN!!!!!

[Benjamin]

[quote user="Evianers"]We seem here to have become 100% off topic.

[/quote]

I entirely agree with you. I could post legion on French, English and Spanish supermarkets making "errors" which benefit them. It's the way of the World.

Restez vigilants là-bas.

[nomoss]

The other way about....

Recently the young lady on check-out in a Spanish supermarket (Caprabo) looked at a couple of plastic sachets of olives I had, and said "I can't let you buy these, they're out of date". I replied that I thought the date on the outside was the packing date, not the expiry, as they definitely were not there a couple of weeks back.

We went to the shelf where the olives were on sale, and finding all the packs had the same date, without letting me look at them, she collected them all up and took them back to the store room. I bought some bottled olives instead.

Next time we were there the olives in plastic sachets were back on the shelf again, and sure enough, the date on them was marked as the packing date.

At least she was trying to prevent us from buying something out of date.

 

[Catalpa]

[quote user="Rabbie"]I agree with you about "fosse sceptic". What on earth is wrong with calling it a "septic tank" when you are using english. [/quote]

I think that sceptic fosses... or even sceptical fosses... are probably very French. And there is no English-language equivalent. [:P]

I understand the point that you and Betty are making but to an extent, some vocabulary or phrases aren't used in regular life in the UK (or wherever) so they are naturally mentally adopted in French rather than translated into English. If they are on mains sewers in the UK suspect most British people's first known encounter with a septic tank is in France so I think it's entirely normal to acquire and use fosse septique especially on a French forum. Why translate it to English? [8-)] 

I generally use a number of French words or phrases now because the English equivalent just doesn't come readily to mind. I was explaining the enduit finish on a wall to some English guests today... I couldn't for the life of me recall "render"... talking car and road taxes with some Dutch guests earlier in the week, I was trying to explain what a CT was... and I could not call to mind "MOT"...

In general, I don't think people on here who live here full time (or have done so) are busy trying to sound more French than thou... I think the Franglais is entirely natural.

[quote user="sweet 17"][quote user="nomoss"]It's quite difficult to work out how many French words one hears are

spelt, as they don't pronounce most of the consonants, nor even many of

the vowels, which makes it difficult to look in a dictionary, nezpah?

[:-))]

[/quote]It's totally untrue that "they don't pronounce most of the

consonants" and also untrue that "many of the vowels" are also not

pronounced [geek][/quote]

Oh, I don't know... An S in the middle of a word is often not pronounced. I call them redundant consonants. [:D]

And yes, to the OP, we are now 100% off-topic... but how interesting can something that happens to most of us weekly (over-charging in supermarkets) be? It's not France-specific and a couple of posts and it's done and dusted.

[nomoss]

Hey! Who wants some more exciting stories about supermarket charges then???

Edit: Like the last one[:D]

 

 

[Chancer]

In general, I don't think people on here who live here full time (or have done so) are busy trying to sound more French than thou... I think the Franglais is entirely natural.

I second that, at least in writing one has a chance to reflect and for me at least most of the Franglais that creeps in gets editted out, sometimes I just cannot find the word in english and very very often the French word has replaced the English one and I dont even see or hear that I am speaking Franglais.

I rarely speak English, only a few times in 8 years to a French person or other foreigner, forums and E-mails are my only connection with the written word in english, its rare that I make or recieve calls to the UK and the only chatting that I do on the phone is to other english living elsewhere in France, the Franglais is completely natural for us and the easiest way of conversing.

Where I have a real problem is when I return to the UK, I am often unknowingly incomprehensible, thankfully my entourage make the effort to understand and it also helps them when they visit France, if they were to criticise me like some I have recieved then I would be very self conscious and not engage in conversation, the very thing that prevents many from actively learning French and who then go on to criticise those who unwittingly write in Franglais.

While we are on the subject, when "parler anglais" is written or spoken what is meant, what is the object? the English what? It causes me confusion because if we are talking about the language then la langue is feminine so why isnt it Anglaise?

[mint]

Er, Chance, I shall try to explain.

True la langue is feminine, so we would ask ta langue est anglaise?  But for "parler" whatever language it is, you just use the masculine form; thus, parler anglais, parler français, parler italien, parler espagnol, etc.

As an aside, "le langage" is masculine, as with most words that end in "-age", with notable exceptions, this being French that we are talking about.

The only parallel that I can think of without proper "research" is that this is a bit like "l'heure" which is, of course, feminine.  So you say "une heure" for one o'clock.  However, when you want to tell the time, you say, "il est deux (trois) heures".  That's because that's like saying IT is 2 or 3 o'clock.  It's the il that is masculine and not l'heure.

If my explanation falls down, I am sure Betty or 5-e or someone more knowledgeable will oblige you [:)]

[Chancer]

Yes please add your views Betty!

I had never heard of le langage, just makes it all the more complicated doesnt it!!

l'heure i thought was because you cannot pronounce two consecutive "e"s as in le heure.

Isnt it all about what is the object? Il est deux heures, the object is "the time" le temp, masculin?

I think that was how I was taught, to always ask what the object is (as opposed to the subject) and whether it is masculin or feminin, thats why I get confused with parler anglais, what is the subject, perhaps le langage? If so then why is langue used.

The other bit that confuses is the possesive of a feminin noun starting with a vowel, you have mon imagination not ma imagination, my ex always corrected me on that but couldnt explain why it was, I just guessed it was because it would be harder to say.

Interesting subject eh!!

Editted, all the more confused, question _ Quelle heure est-il? subject une heure, feminin.

Reply is in the masculin form!

[idun]

The words I had most trouble with was water and address. Both feminine, but hard to tell when people are speaking. I suppose with your diving you will have picked up quite quickly 'elle est chaude' our 'froide'.

[Loiseau]

"le langage" is not the same as "la langue".

It would be used in "le langage de l'amour", "le langage des animaux," or to refer to techno-speak or other jargon.

But in the sense of a doreign language, or mother-tongue, "la langue" is correct.

I know that doesn't answer your earlier question, Chancer -sorry!

Angela

[Chancer]

[quote user="idun"]The words I had most trouble with was water and address. Both feminine, but hard to tell when people are speaking. I suppose with your diving you will have picked up quite quickly 'elle est chaude' our 'froide'.
[/quote]

Yeah thats a really pertinent one!!!

I asked my old teacher what gender water was as just hearing l'eau I was none the wiser. I think she explained that it can be  both masculin and feminin, from memory its the difference between the water and a body of water, something like that, she wasnt sure and it seemd the best explanation I could rationalise.

L'eau, elle est chaude.

Un eau troublé.

The thing is as young children or as in my case with a non existant education in the English language we dont get these problems, we just hear, repeat and dont question.

[mint]

[quote user="Loiseau"]"le langage" is not the same as "la langue". It would be used in "le langage de l'amour", "le langage des animaux," or to refer to techno-speak or other jargon. But in the sense of a doreign language, or mother-tongue, "la langue" is correct. I know that doesn't answer your earlier question, Chancer -sorry! Angela[/quote]

Just logged on today so thank you, Angela for explaining that to Chancer. 

"Le langage" is as you have explained and that is why I preceded my explanation by writing "as an aside", to signal that I was talking about something else but, as usual my enthusiasm had overspilled and I might have confused Chancer.

I first came across it reading la Fontaine's "Le corbeau et le renard" and I might post a link to that later for those interested.

AFAIK, l'eau is always feminine as is adresse.  

The trouble I have with adresse is the spelling! I think it only has one "d" in French[:-))]

As for the "heure" thing.  "Il est seize heures" is because "il" is "impersonal", just like "it" is in English.  "Il" is often impersonal, as in "il y a". 

 

[Loiseau]

Yes, I used to be surprised at people rushing into the sea for a swim and declaring "L'eau est bonne!". But I suppose it's not too different from us saying "it's lovely in!"

Angela

[mint]

Anyway, here is le corbeau et le renard:

http://www.adoptanescargot.com/maitre.corbeau.htm

"ce langage" is on the fourth line.

Here it refers to the renard's flowery language which he uses to flatter the corbeau, to very good effect![:)]

It's just occurred to me, Chance, with your original question.  Do you think the person said, "Parlez anglais"?  An imperative, "speak English"?

[5-element]

"Un eau troublé": are you very sure about that Chancer?????? I've never known water to be both masculine and feminine??? C'est l'explication qui est trouble, pas l'eau!

By the way, I do franglais fairly frequently (not systematically), but as a shortcut more than anything else; like others have said, when a given word or expression comes to me in the other language. This happens a lot when I am with other bilingual people, and there is nothing pretentious about it. But it is really funny when it is done pretentiously, especially when the speaker has got it wrong anyway, a rather common occurrence.

Just to go back to the initial posting, I kept having the same problem with being overcharged in LIDL and I became so paranoid about it that I even found overcharging where there was none (most embarrassing)...

[mint]

Franglais is fine, as far as I'm concerned.

It's when I mix up French and English in the same WORD that I confuse myself!

To give an example from today.  I was walking with OH and dog on a path full of loose stones.  I said, "Be careful, it's glissery!"

Took me a while to understand myself:  the brain (such as it is) couldn't decide between glissant and slippery.......ggggrrrrrr

Strangely enough, I have never been overcharged in our Lidl.  Maybe once at Leclerc but then I don't check my till receipts each and every time but I shall take note of the OP's message and I shall certainly be more meticulous in future.

[Chancer]

You are right, water is feminin, I recall the conversation with my friend now, we were at the swimming pool hence the talk of water, she said 'l'eau est bonne" and "un eau troublé" as examples, on reflection the lesson, informal that it was, was about finding the object, in the second example I think the object, a body of water, un corp d'eau, was unspoken.

Seemingly the lesson was wasted on me when i try and convince others that water can be both masculin and feminin.

[Rabbie]

I can understand the need for Franglais especially for those who are living in France and speaking a fair bit of French.  I also have problems speaking french where I have a tendency to insert Swedish words when the brain picks the right word from the box marked "foreign" without reference to the actual language being used. Re-reading my posts I realise I was perhaps a little harsh and obsessive on the subject so I bow to the majority view as expressed here  and accept Franglais as a fact of life on an Anglo- French forum. There are too many people here that I respect who use it for me to be sanctimonious about it.   

[idun]

What can I say but......... tack Rabbie[:D]