12 month stay without residency.

[Gluestick]

I could think of worse, JE! [:D]

[cooperlola]

Tracy : Re the dogs thing.  One impression I get is that the locals are more apt to let their dogs out of the house to wander about unsupervised.   I doubt whether French dogs are by their nature more viscious, but they seem - around here at least - to be left to their own devices more (or nurtured like little babies!)

[woolybanana (ex tag)]

Farm dogs are also guard dogs so can be a bit nippy at times.

[allanb]

[quote user="Gluestick"]Unfortunately, allanb, the quantifiable facts don't support your view.

I cannot remember the stats ... but from final research in the late 80s/early 90s, showed that circa 90% of all kids have an average learning curve and academic ability. This was identical over all races and ethnicities.[/quote]

Sorry, G, but this is nonsense.  These are not "quantifiable facts".  How do you quantify "average learning curve and academic ability"?  Tell us what measures were used. 

All the rest is anecdote.  Your "little Marie" story shows that a child brought up in three different countries by parents with different mother tongues will probably be capable of answering the phone in more than one language.  Does that surprise anyone? 

I certainly concede that children who start young will learn a language more quickly and easily than someone starting as an adult.  But the original post here was about children who (as far as we know) haven't previously had that kind of exposure to any language other than English. 

As for Loyola: he was talking about religious faith, which is different from linguistic ability. 

[Gluestick]

Of course St. Ignateus was primarily speaking of religion: however the point is in the sentence following:

Educational learning is nothing other than structured discipline. The rest is environmental conditioning.

Pavlov, huh?

The Society of Jesus is not exactly noted for its idiocy amongst members............

So I made one statement: you made another. You beliebe you are right: I believe I am.

Just for once on these boards how about you go off and come back with the references to disprove what I said?

I'm a tad tired of it being the other way around! [;-)]

Edit: But just to kick the ball off:

http://www.quazen.com/Science/Your-children's-IQ-is-in-your-hands.6321

 

 

[Athene]

England goes through phases with teaching children a second language. At the moment French is taught in most primary school or middle schools although at the moment it is a QCA recommendation and not a compulsory part of the curriculum.

Here is the QCA document that is widely used in our primary schools.

http://www.qca.org.uk/qca_11752.aspx

[woolybanana (ex tag)]

Bilingualism is more than achievable. But you have to break a few rice bowls and get away from the dreadful localisation of experience and education. The Dutch do it, many kids in my Uni in Belgium went to special primaries where they were taught in English. And boy could I tell the difference.

[Gluestick]

Quite agree, WB.

In the course of my work and for pleasure, I have travelled a fair bit and I have also met and mixed wth people from all over the globe.

The core problem is that English tends to be the principle second language taught: which gives Brits a free ride!

It is also the official language of the air for Comms; same with shipping. Software tends to be conceived in English and afterwards the screen shots are translated.

That said, the days when Brits could get away with wearing a bowler hat, waving the union flag and speaking English at increasing volume and ever more slowly as if the person they were speaking to was (i) Deaf and (ii) Mentally challenged, are over!

The UK, whether people love it or hate it, is part of an expanded Europe: the World is smaller than ever with globalisation and trade.

For the businesses of the future, it is essential that the movers and shakers speak at least one other main language robustly: if not two!

 

[allanb]

[quote user="Gluestick"]Just for once on these boards how about you go off and come back with the references to disprove what I said?[/quote]You were the one who said you had quantifiable facts to support your view.  We're still waiting for them.

You said that you have some statistics (sorry, "stats" - I've noticed that you like to use trendy abbreviations) but that you've forgotten what they are.  Well, you have my sympathy; I forget a lot of things too.  But forgotten stats are not exactly compelling evidence.

I don't pretend to have quantifiable evidence for my view, but here's my reasoning: experience shows that children have different levels of ability in different kinds of intellectual activity.  I don't think you'll find a teacher who disagrees with that.  Now if ability varies in (for instance) music, games like chess, mechanical aptitude, visual art, mathematics, manipulation of numbers (which is not the same as mathematics), etc, etc, is there any reason to think that it does not vary in language?  It certainly varies enormously in adults - and here I am talking from solid personal experience.

I am not saying that children cannot learn languages.  Clearly they can.  But the original post did not refer to kids like your "little Marie" who had seven years of experience in a mutilingual environment (OK, perhaps the first couple of years don't count).  It referred to kids who are perhaps going to be put into a foreign-language school for the first time in their lives and for one year only.  I don't think you can assume that the results will be the same, and I don't think the possible difficulties should be ignored.

[Blanche Neige]

Allanb wrote

"It referred to kids who are perhaps going to be put into a foreign-language school for the first time in their lives and for one year only.  I don't think you can assume that the results will be the same, and I don't think the possible difficulties should be ignored."

 

To add to the above, they will have to do all their lessons in this new language, so it is not just a case of chatting with friends.

[Aly (used to be Charlotte3)]

I have been following this topic with interest.

Gluestick, on following your link, I noted that the statisics were for IQ, not academic ability. There is a world of difference! As a former governer etc, etc, ad nauseum I'm a more than a little concerned that you can't tell the difference! As someone once said, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. 

Aly 

[andyh4]

[quote user="tracy39"]

Ironically - and on a completely different level -it may not ultimately be education that causes a problem for my elder son. He had a terrible fear of dogs, which (having grown up with dogs myself ) i  have managed to greatly diminish, by constantly encouraging him to trust dogs we know to be extremely 'nice'. Whilst very keen to try a new way of life and learning, he constantly keeps asking me about Frances' dreadful dog bite statistics (knew i should not have let him loose on google!). I believe they are in the hundreds of thousands (compared to the UK which is around 3000) per year - i am sure this cannot be right - not with France being so particular about the banning, breeding e.t.c. of certain breeds (maybe i have just got duff info.), seems a huge amount!!! Anyway, i have assured him that i will post something here (on the correct forum) to (hopefully), put his mind at rest (or not, as the case may be!).

Loved reading your helpful comments.

[/quote]

 

Tracy

you have to convince your son that this is nonsense.

There are lies damn lies and statistics - and here are some damn statistics

UK - 3000 bites implies the average person will be bitten once every 20,000years - sound realistic?  I think not.  I guess this is something like hospital admissions as a result of dog bites.

F - several hundred thousand bites suggests one bite every 20-30 years - sound realistic? quite probably.  The stats are probably from Doctors reports (god bless bureaucracy for once) and remember that since until around 15 years ago France was a rabies country, people are more likely to go to a doctor following a bite.

 

So basically you cannot compare the 2 numbers.  France is not littered with people missinf noses, ears or with severe scars following dog attacks.

[tracy39]

Thanks Andy, yes you are absolutely correct here - things are never what they appear (when read), which is why i appreciate peoples personal experience - like yourself - for correct info.

It was actually 'a certain well known book - by a certain greatly published writer' on life and work,  in France (i am not sure if i can mention titles and names on here, in case it is seen as advertising), that stated such high stats. 500,000 (with 60,000 requiring hospital treatment) per year, that made us question the possible problem. But from emails that i have had and of course replies, including yours, it does not seem to be much of an issue. I was more concerned by the fact that the above writer chose to make a point of it as if it was a major concern, then when searching on this forum, (for some reason) the posting on dog poo came up, which seemed to infer that it MAYBE  'de rigour' in France for dogs to be let out (to have a little walk and got to the loo e.t.c.) without a lead/owner, hence perhaps more dogs wandering freely thus leading to more possible nips and bites. Or of course the statistics quoted could be just more information to fill up a certain book(   like you mentioned - going to the doctors could be to check for possible Rabies or infection)  plus how outdated is the information in the book?

 

[Gluestick]

[quote]

I have been following this topic with interest.

Gluestick, on following your link, I noted that the statisics were for IQ, not academic ability. There is a world of difference! As a former governer etc, etc, ad nauseum I'm a more than a little concerned that you can't tell the difference! As someone once said, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. 

Aly 

[/quote]

Aly:

Only just picked this up as I have been away (in France) and I was thus not ignoring you.

Academic ability normally springs from a base of ability (IQ if you like) and the rest tends to be environmental conditioning, as I said earlier.

Much of this is down to parents.

Perhaps the differences can be exemplified by the simple fact that a majority of children can be taught to play the piano, e.g.. Many play mechanically (since musical notation is only of course mathematical).

A few play with deep inner feeling

The harsh reality remains that on the stats I was able to source back in the 80s, circa 90% of all kids, irrespective of race enjoyed an average core IQ latency. 5% were well above average; and 5% were what used to be called, ESN (Educationally Sub Normal). That said, of the 5% ESN, an unquantified number had perceptional problems: e.g. they naturally wanted to read bottom to top and right to left.

To place this firmly in perspective, my own county at the time denied that Dyslexia either existed or was an educational problem! Previous funding for what would be called today "Special needs" was scrapped!

Also as I stated earlier, which you would have picked up on, since you read the thread with keen interest, education is nothing more than structured discipline: it is either self imposed, or externally imposed.

When it fails to be imposed by parents, society and schools, that's when the problems start.

 

[Athene]

'Academic ability normally springs from a base of ability (IQ if you like) and the rest tends to be environmental conditioning, as I said earlier.'

This is true and irrefutable.

Memory is a part of IQ! You can instill things as Gluestick says by rote learning but it depends how much memory you have as to how long it will be retained! For example all children can be taught arithmetic and basic four rules but to be able to see independently solutions to mathematical problems requires intelligence and mathematical ability.Similarly with a language, it will depend on memory as to how much is retained! Lingusitic ability  will help the child to use the language base acquired to express his/her shades of meaning with greater clarity.