I would have had to...........

[richard51]

How about a good french grammar book then.

Google translate would have given you the answer that appeared here as you were asking a technical question. I was merely pointing out that a computer translation cannot give context.

I must admit I dont understand the meaning of some of your last post.

[mint]

And I must admit I don't understand what you mean by a technical question.  It was a question about grammar; I thought I'd already stated that?

I have already said that I have NEVER used Google translate.

[Chancer]

And anyone like ALBF that cannot see that an inability to dicriminate between avoir and être is much much worse than a misplaced apothrophe in English really has no clue about the French language, but then if a 7 year old is "plus fort que" them......................

[Chancer]

[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]So what....I have you seen how badly I write English ? Even illiterate French people can kick your @rses when it comes to communicating in France. Now you lot, stop being idiot Brits abroad.[/quote]

 

Not true as the subject is written communication.

 

Also even with my really really limited vocabulary I can kick ar5e of most people around here in conversation, why? because I want to communicate  it has always been my number 1 priority whereas the vast majority around here just string together random words with euuhhhs leaving you to guess what it is they want to say.

 

I dont consider myself a good communicator, thats why i have to work hard at it, in the UK I would have been in the lowest quartile, most people were erudite and confident speaking in public compared to me, here, even in a second language, speaking it very badly I am more accomplished than most.

[NormanH]

It can help to have a longer phrase or sentence to translate, as I said in Patf's question about 'tough'.

In your case  'I would have had to ' is a bit clearer if you add a bit more to give a real context to work with

For example "If I had missed the train I would have had to go by car" triggers a real situation in my imagination and I start thinking what I would say, whereas the snippet 'I would have had to ' is a bit dry..

Si j'avais raté le train, il aurait fallu que j'aille en voiture

or (easier to say)

Si j'avais raté le train, il m'aurait fallu prendre la voiture

But these 'sequence of tenses' are a minefield and I am by no means convinced of either of those.

In fact I would probably have skirted round 'falloir' and used 'obligé'

J'aurais été obligé

so

Si j'avais raté le train, j'aurais été obligé de prendre la voiture

[Chancer]

According to my good French grammar book, Bescherel, the best! The two phrases are the conditionnel passé 1iè form of devoir and être, in fact I can see my hand written notations of what I thought the English équivalents were that I wrote when I first started to understand what I call, probably incorrectly, the compound tenses.

I can see that I have annotated:

I have, I had, I have had, that I have, that I had, that I have had, I had at that time, I was having, I had had, that I was having, have! (have it!) I will have, I will have had, to have, to have had, I could have, I would have, I would have had.

I still dont know what the passé 2e form means j'eusse eu, perhaps you can ask your 7 year old ALBF, while you are at it you can ask her how all the above are expressed in French, I think there is more chance of her doing that, probably a good chance, than of you telling us, yet its the very first verb in Bescherel, the most commonly used verb in French and the one that the person you think can kick my ar5e in communication doesn't know how to use.

[EuroTrash]

I'm sure you don't need to know, Chancer, but just in case you want to complete your notations from back then: j'eusse eu is the pluperfect subjunctive and it would translate as: (it was necessary) "that I had had". (I think! no doubt Norman will put me right if not!)

Not a thing one needs to say very often, fortunately.

[EuroTrash]

Good on you for avoiding googletranslate, Mint. I know it's an amazing tool, especially since they gave it a brain, but it's counterproductive for anyone who is interested in that language and wants to learn.

If I got a message in Japanese and was mildly interested to know roughly what it meant, I'd use googletranslate because I have no interest in learning Japanese.

I once had a student that I just could not stop from using googletranslate. Every week she promised she wouldn't and then next week she admitted she had. She had a good brain but out of all the students I ever had (adults), she's probably the one that made the least progress during her 3 months.

[alittlebitfrench]

@ richard 51

You said: "I was slightly amused when you implied that you were totally integrated into france. Again you are perhaps a little naive - I suspect even your close ones consider you as the english one"

Of course I am the English one. Fillons wife is the welsh one. Integration and language skills are two different things. There are many different nationalities at out kids school. Their first language is not French but they are integrated. When I pick the kids up from school I can hear many different languages being spoken. Only the British get a bee in their bonnet about this sort of thing.

@ Chancer

About five years ago I wrote an online magazine/book which I sold on my website to a French market. My OH translated it into French for me. I know from experience how difficult it is to translate English to French and my wife is bilingual as you can get...although apparently there is no such thing as being bilingual. It took some months. When we sold it (in large numbers I might add) some actually wrote to us (thanking us for our magazine) and pointing out errors. Not necessarily French but the way the French was used in the context of the technicalities being described.

We have just finished another one which will go online hopefully after Easter. Again translation was required.

That is integration...LOL.

And please don't imply I don't not the difference between 'être & avoir'

And yes, I think my son nailed the phrases I gave him. You are just over complicating things with you translations.

[EuroTrash]

Being bilingual doesn't automatically mean you have the necessary skills to become a translator.

I work with some excellent translators who are not completely bilingual in their source language(s); you don't need to be. And I see lots of translations (far too many!) done by wannabe translators who think that being bilingual is enough and you don't need any other skills or training to become a translator.

If a person is finding a translation difficult, it's because they don't have the right skills.

"Only the British get a bee in their bonnet about this kind of thing" - being integrated like wot you are, no doubt you know Claude Barzotti's chanson "Le Rital", about growing up as an Italian kid in France and being made to feel you're different?

https://www.google.fr/#q=le+rital+claude+barzotti+lyrics&*

PS "You are just overcomplicating things with you translations" - what exactly are you seeing as "complicated" about putting a verb into the correct tense, and using an everyday expression ?????

[alittlebitfrench]

ET said...."If a person is finding a translation difficult, it's because they don't have the right skills"

In our case, my OH did not know the subject well...but I did.

So together we made it work.

But in terms of what we did, it was a niche and very difficult for anyone....professional translator or not....if they did not know the subject. No one had ever done it before, but there was a market (because it had never been done before) which is why it sold.

ET, in terms of integration we have had this conversation before. Integration basically means waking up in the morning and not feeling subconscious that you foreign living in another country. Or that is how I define it.

[EuroTrash]

Yes I think we've agreed on what integration means. But you still keep saying that it's only Brits who ever stop to think about whether or not they're integrated and to what point, which is why gave you a link to lyrics where an Italian is musing over the self same question. I'm sure it's an issue for everyone who moves country.

[idun]

My son reckons il aurait ete too, just off the top of his head..... and laughed and said it would depend.

The french class system is truly more terrible and insidious than the british one, and that the french crow about NOT having one always amazes me....... because in my humble opinion theirs is far worse.

Those that can write french to the nth degree of complicated conjugaisons are the upper classes/royalty and it goes down hill from there as to where one is in this hierachy. So it shows very easily on job applications etc and the job one ends up with.

My best friend employs a scribe to write her letters, my friend is astute and full of brilliant common sense and actually self made and quite well off, but not well educated and I would suppose in french terms not considered very bright because of this and very low class.

I accept that my written french is rubbish. I will not get upset about it and don't give a hoot if the french think I am practically illiterate, no idea what they think to be honest.  My english is not very good, I was never good at english and blossomed in maths, fortunately.

Bilingual, I do not believe in it either.........  as a general rule, as very very very few people are talented enough to be completely bilingual.

[Chancer]

[quote user="EuroTrash"] "You are just overcomplicating things with you translations" - what exactly are you seeing as "complicated" about putting a verb into the correct tense, and using an everyday expression ?????[/quote]

I've seen it before, its one of the many  outward manifestations of the frustration of someone who has lived in France a very long time but with a partner that speaks good English (or whatever their language is) and/or is trapped by circumstances.

[EuroTrash]

"very very very few people are talented enough to be completely bilingual."

I suppose in my profession I come across more than average, so to me they're not all that unusual. But, it is more unusual to find a person who is to all intents and purposes bilingual, whose skills in either language are actually as good as a native speaker of that language who's not bilingual. I guess, because it's hard to keep the two completely separate in your brain and stop them contaminating each other, even ever so slightly.

I'm sure a lot of us native anglophones have found that the more time we spend with French speakers, the more often we find ourselves stumbling over how to say something in English, or forgetting a perfectly ordinary English word or confusing it with a French word without even realising.

So in a way, whilst being bilingual has a lot of advantages it can also be a handicap unless either you are exceptionally gifted or you work hard at it.

[Chancer]

I have never used Google translate for French, having to go through a dictionary finding the word or verb, trying to work out how it fits in with the rest of the phrase is a very important aspect of Learning although it has its limits, I recall getting a texto saying pas pu rappeller and not knowing what pu was and the biggest dictionary did not help,  had I realised it was a conjugaison I doubt that I would have guessed the verb.

 

I use Google translate for reviews from non French guests, I also regularly use linguée.fr when writing letters and find it an excellent resource, I think I have Norman to thank for that one!

[alittlebitfrench]

@ Chancer

Now you are being rude Chancer.

Uncle ALBF has been around a bit.

I have said this before, I used to play for a pool team in France. Travelled everywhere playing pool. Language skills a bit limited but had a fantastic time. Now, within three years I was (out of 11,000 players in France) ranked no 56 in France. The only reason I did not end up being No 1 was because I destroyed my shoulder....and had to give up. Language skills does not change anything.

Incidentally, one of the top players in France (Top 3) is half British. Imagine that.

Now, going back to integration. On BEVS forum (ET will understand) she often says that a person moving to France goes through stages. The first 2 years are exciting and great. Then life hits you and you start to hate everything French. Then over a time you become more and more integrated and you enjoy living in France and nothing bothers you any more (driving, food, customer service and all that) . She said it takes a good ten years, I would say more. I am worried Chancer after 12 years you have not reached that stage. You still seem to be at odds with everything.

[EuroTrash]

I wonder if Becks felt integrated in all the countries he lived in.

[Patf]

Perhaps you need to grow up in a family with parents of different nationalities. Plus have an aptitude for languages, which is quite rare. And for both spoken and written languages.

When we first came here we had a friend whose mother had been french, and father english. He had worked for the french during the war as a translator, and helped many of us with communication problems.

[Chancer]

No rudeness, just an observation, phycologie is a hobby of mine, forums are a real portal into peoples hopes and fears, they express themselves anonomously in ways they never would face to face.

 

I concede that language skills do not help with playing pool although what that has to do with the subject beats me.

 

Been through the stage that you talk about probably after 8 years at my best estimate, it is not the last stage for me though, iIam currently in the coming to an end/biding my time before leaving for pastures new stage so not all all surprised that I may seem at odds, certainly the way I view things and how I express myself will have changed as it has done throughout my life, the people that really scare me are those that imeet who have not changed on bit in décades, they are trapped and they usually know it.

[alittlebitfrench]

May be you should look closer to home Chancer in your analysis.

I have always said, France is a tough place to live.

If you are beat, then don't prolong the inevitable.

[Chancer]

You have to be able to look inwards first before being able to see through others. I know for instance that i amexperiencing cabin fever through throwing myself 100% at the renovation of the final apartment, to the exclusion of all other activities, I knew it when I started but crucially I have a choice, no person or circumstances is making me do what i choose to do, its been like that for 25 years now.

I am no more beat than the day I arrived here, I choose not to fight against centuries of narrow midedness.

 

I have every incentive to prolong the inevitable, I am making more money than I have ever done (not that its of any importance to me) for doing very little, the longer I prolong it the more I will have for the next chapter of life and the greater value the property/business will have.

I will know when its time to say "enough" I was one of the few people in the UK that knew how much was "enough".

 

Equally, and maybe this ties in with some peoples worst fears, if I had to walk away tomorrow with nothing, zero, zilch after spending €100K and 12 years of labour I would have no regrets and would feel richer for the experience.

 

Life anywhere can be tough if you dont have choices or your future dépends on the décisions of others, you do not have control of your destiny.

[mint]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]"very very very few people are talented enough to be completely bilingual."

I suppose in my profession I come across more than average, so to me they're not all that unusual. But, it is more unusual to find a person who is to all intents and purposes bilingual, whose skills in either language are actually as good as a native speaker of that language who's not bilingual. I guess, because it's hard to keep the two completely separate in your brain and stop them contaminating each other, even ever so slightly.

I'm sure a lot of us native anglophones have found that the more time we spend with French speakers, the more often we find ourselves stumbling over how to say something in English, or forgetting a perfectly ordinary English word or confusing it with a French word without even realising.

So in a way, whilst being bilingual has a lot of advantages it can also be a handicap unless either you are exceptionally gifted or you work hard at it.[/quote]

How I can identify with what you say, ET.  There are words of multi-syllables like "democracy" "impeccable", etc where I have to pause and work out where the stress should lie.

As for place names, Montpellier, St Malo, St Omer, and dozens of others where I can no longer say them like a UK person would.

Spelling:  another area best not mentioned.  It's words with close equivalents in English, stupide, réparé, and so on where I really do need that Spellcheck discussed on another thread.

Guess what though, I will not resort to an electronic thingy that I see many carry around and, when they are stuck for a French word, they ask you to wait while they find the word on their gadgets.  Too stubborn, too proud, too "superior", too "I can manage just fine" to so ostensibly be floundering!

[mint]

[quote user="NormanH"]It can help to have a longer phrase or sentence to translate, as I said in Patf's question about 'tough'.

In your case  'I would have had to ' is a bit clearer if you add a bit more to give a real context to work with

For example "If I had missed the train I would have had to go by car" triggers a real situation in my imagination and I start thinking what I would say, whereas the snippet 'I would have had to ' is a bit dry..

Si j'avais raté le train, il aurait fallu que j'aille en voiture

or (easier to say)

Si j'avais raté le train, il m'aurait fallu prendre la voiture

But these 'sequence of tenses' are a minefield and I am by no means convinced of either of those.

In fact I would probably have skirted round 'falloir' and used 'obligé'

J'aurais été obligé

so

Si j'avais raté le train, j'aurais été obligé de prendre la voiture[/quote]

No, Norman, no context needed in this case!  A straightforward grammatical question and the phrase can be inserted anywhere that requires this form of the conditional.

You would know that I normally give a lot of context.  I'd recount a story, give you the name and author of the book from which a phrase is extracted.  Sometimes I think I go on too much and for too long with the preamble.

This time, I deliberately didn't give a context because it was to do with the purchase of my new car and I didn't want to seem to be bragging[:-))]

[NormanH]

The problem with taking a single phrase is that it is often rather too specific to be used elsewhere. In this case there is also the problem of the verb 'to have to' which complicates the phrase with one 'have' as an auxiliary

I would have....then the second 'have' in fact being the past participle of 'have to'

had to

It can be much simpler to reformulate the phrase in English before translating it, and that re-formulated phrase often sounds rather academic to modern English ears.

I turned it to I would have been obliged to  which makes sense but I doubt many people would say nowadays.

In French however j'aurais été obligé de feels less stiff than the formulations with falloir