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Titre de sejour (Yes, again)


CeeJay

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CT,

you and I have often had very different views but on this I agree 100%. I consider myself now more European than British. If today I had the opportunity of taking German nationality, I would do so, although I never wanted to while I was there - and in any case would never have met the necessary criteria and likely never will.

My rights to French nationality are still somewhat open to interpretation, although our mayor has suggested that I should apply - despite my dreadful French still.

3 years ago, I stated clearly on here that I could stay in France for 100 years and would still be British and I still feel that even if I were to adopt another nationality that would still apply and I could never be 100% German or French.

You however are much younger and I see fewer problems in assimilation. Go for it.

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I know a lot of people from all over europe......but there is one thing that I do know is that they are fully aware of their national identity. A 'european' is a fantasy, other than the generic Caucasian, and we have moved on a bit from that.

Or maybe all the Eurocrats are going to form a new tribe and produce many millions of eurosprogs to populate the continent.
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CT - a carte de séjour does not change your nationality. So if you are a British citizen, then if and when the UK ceases to be part of the EU, it will not give you rights and privileges that the EU only grants to citizens of member states.

A French carte de séjour does exactly what its name suggests - it confirms your right to stay in France while the card is valid. It's not meant to give you the same rights as the citizens of the country you live in, that's the difference between being a resident of a country and being a citizen of a country. If your dad wants the same rights as a French citizen, he needs to apply for French citizenship ie become a French citizen. Then he will have all of those rights. It's something of a hassle but if he feels strongly about it, he might decide it's a price worth paying?
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"I know a lot of people from all over europe......but there is one thing that I do know is that they are fully aware of their national identity."

So how do the people you know who have taken the nationality of a country other than their birth, feel?

Surely, talking about being a European citizen just means that the person is open to Europe/likes European culture/engages with Europe. Like, you might describe someone as "a citizen of the world" if they are well travelled and have immersed themselves in all different cultures. In a sense everyone is a citizen of the world because we are all citizens of one of the world's countries. And in the same sense every citizen of a European country is also a citizen of Europe. But that's not what we really mean, is it. It's more about a person's outlook and sympathies, You wouldn't for instance use either of those terms to describe someone who is very nationalistic and thinks their own country is the only place that matters and won't have any truck with foreign places..
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Oh my - this is why I love this forum.   We've moved on from the practicalities of printing out reams and reams of paper copying documents, problems with the rdv - onto a very philosophical view of what a 'european' citizen, as opposed to being a citizen of Greece, Spain, Italy implies in peoples' outlook.

Take a view around europe, without the rose tinted, airy fairy 'european' outlook.   Many european countries, which have not existed as countries for very long, have citizens who have become very disillusioned with the 'european' dream.   Personally I love all europe - the different cultures, attitudes, personalities - love it all.   Hate what the idea of a centrist, controlling 'elite' has done to the peoples of europe. 

I'm also very worried about the future direction of the wonderful europe we knew, until recently.   Look at the writing above the european visitors centre in brussels.......

But find it fascinating tthe way this thread has spread out, and covered different topics.   Love these sort of exchange of views - and no rude comments (at least not in the pages I've read !).

Debra - thanks for advice about Irish/eu/UK partner's situation.   I think we'll just have to wait and see how it all plays out.   Let's not worry too much;  France is a civilised country, and is the UK -

I'm not going to panic  - we'll be alright.   Just possibly a few forms to complete, and tax records to produce but hopefully (fingers crossed) not too much hassle.

Wait and see - that's my view anyway, for what it's worth.

Anyone still cutting their lawns ?   We've got hard ground, dried grass - and a hubby who still wants grass cut to an inch of its life - who goes mad when I say it should just be left for another few weeks until the rains arrive.   He wants a bowling green - I want a wild flower meadow with grass cut only twice a year.   Talk about chalk and cheese - not funny sometimes.

Thanks everyone - Chessie

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I don't share your views on Europe Chessie.

I think it is still quite possible to be French within Europe, just as it is possible to be a Yorkshireman (or woman) in the United Kingdom. Europe does not have to mean homogenisation, although I would accept that Globalisation does inevitably lead to a degree of sameness. And the UK is well to the fore - just look at British cuisine for evidence of that - Indian, Chinese, Thai, Greek, Italian, French …….. Just rather little British cuisine around.

Indeed speaking of the UK, I think your tirade against Europe as you see it, could equally be mirrored by a Scotsman. Just change Europe to United Kingdom and European to British and see if it reads like a Scottish nationalist view.

The question is, do we want ever further Balkanisation of the world with people descending ever more into tribal groups excluding all others, or do we want a more inclusive world with larger and by default stronger groups?
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+1 to Andy's post.

Chessie - "Hate what the idea of a centrist, controlling 'elite' has done to the peoples of europe." - what exactly has it done? The Italians still drive like lunatics. The Germans and the Belgians still have polar opposite views on how to brew beer. The French are still very French. Etc. What's changed about the peoples? Please tell me, because I keep seeing this notion trotted out but nobody has explained it with concrete examples yet. Obviously individual countries in the EU have economic problems but those countries would also have problems if they weren't in the EU, different problems and perhaps worse problems, but that's a different issue; I'd like to understand what this centrist controlling élite has done to the peoples.
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Funny, that. I was chatting to an Irishman last week. He and his German wife have just moved from Belgium to live in our French village. He observed that he had yet to hear from anyone who was in favour of Britain leaving the EU with a concrete example of which EU laws it was that they actually fundamentally objected to, or felt had damaged the UK...He also specifically wondered why the UK's imminent departure from the E.U had exponentially increased demand for Irish passports from people with any old vague Irish heritage.

And look now at the bottlenecks for people seeking French nationality. Brexit may be shown by history to have farther reaching effects on "the peoples" of the E.U. than the status quo.

It still presents an irony that Brits are being forced down the route of applying for foreign nationality to remain living abroad, when this whole débacle started because there were, for some, too many foreigners in the UK.
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Well said Andy.

It is a generation thing. Those here being anti EU come from a generation whose parents probably fought in WW2 and have those values instilled into them. They probably watched films at school about the British Empire and how the UK traded with it. Thing is it all started to go south after WW2, trading diminished and the docks like London, Liverpool etc closed.

"...national sovereignty is the root cause of the most crying evils of our time and the steady march of humanity back to the tragic disaster of barbarism... The only final remedy for this supreme and catastrophic evil of our time is the federal union of the peoples...." 1939

"We must build a kind of United States of Europe. Only in this way will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes that make life worth living." 1946

Said more than once by a great leader, somebody who is often miss quoted by those that support Brexit. As they rightly say however he (Churchill) would be turning in his grave at the thought of them throwing it all away.

By the way he also wrote the initial charter of the European Court of Human Rights which was then rewritten in legal speak.

I am sure that those that fought in WW2 would be very unhappy with their children.

Back to the thread.....

I am not sure why people say they are spending hours printing out shed loads of paper?

We printed out my fathers last five years of tax returns direct from the tax website. if you need two copies (his and hers) just tell it to print 2 copies as they are in PDF format. Then copied the birth, death and marriage certificates so what's that 4 if your both alive plus the originals to go with the translations, another 4. Copy of last bank statement, letter from the mayor, EDF bill and the letter he got when he bought the house from the notary to say he and mother were the new owners, already in French so no translations required. A list of the required documents is on the Ministry or Interiors website.

Somebody asked about how long it takes. The interview has to happen within a set time frame of 90 days from the time you ask for an appointment because some of the documents you need to produce can be no older than 90 days (bank statements and bills for example). Once you have visited them, it's not an interview, just fill in a form, they go through the paperwork and give you a receipt with one of your photos on it and take your fingerprints, its another 90 days wait for the card. This should be displayed in your prefecture and certainly at my fathers they have written in their average times which were a lot quicker. I think from the meeting to the SMS message to collect his CdS was 36 days then it was a week later that he picked it up. Collection of the card did not require an appointment.

Of course that's Aude and the times vary between departments but the time frames do not as neither do the document requirements as they are set in law by central government.
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YCCMB: "I was chatting to an Irishman last week. He and his German wife have just moved from Belgium to live in our French village."

I'd say he is a good illustration of what being an EU citizen means. He's taking full advantage of the opportunities that are open to EU citizens yet he is still identified first and foremost as an Irishman.
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Well I still know a couple of men who fought in WW11 and like my Dad are not fans of the current EU. So that anyone voted against, would not worry them.

I have friends who are VERY VERY upset about the vote, british, some still living in France and another who lived in France and is now back in the UK.

These friends keep mentioning 'opportunities', and I still do not get how they do not understand that people were moving around the continent from time immemorial and internationally marrying. OK, there were hoops to jump through, but we had to, and there was nothing wrong with that. And as we did it,  so did the friend who now lives in the UK.

It will be what it will be and I am just finding all this getting in a tizzy about it, very strange. Remember, it could affect our lives a LOT, but whatever happens, we shall get on with it. It's not like a war is starting, or the start of genocide in mainland europe again.

There was a vote, a perfectly legitimate referendum, and the vote was what it was. If it had gone the other way, I would have accepted it, because that is how democracy works.

One strange thing though, Vince Cable, reckons that the 52% majority was NOT enough, but, VC, I wonder,  IF you ever win a general election with 52% of the vote, would you not count it as a ressounding victory?????

I shall not loose sleep over this, every job I do in the house at the moment, is with a view to sell, even though I would prefer to spend many many years here, because it is just common sense. AND if we move back to France, who knows we may get a bargain, with fleeing scaredy cat brits moving home[:D] ( I'm kidding, I probably wouldn't want to live where most brits live).

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I think what retirees tend to overlook is that it's people who want to live and work in another EU country who are going to be affected most by losing freedom of movement. At present Brits can come to France and apply for a job or set up a business. Without freedom of movement, to take a job here they would need to be "sponsored" by an employer who would have to prove they had been unable to recruit a suitable EU candidate for the job. To move here and set up a business as a non EU citizen you have to show how France will benefit - ie how many jobs you will be creating, how much you will be investing, how it will strengthen France's ties with other countries. A lot of Brits who at present are able to move to France and get an ordinary job or set up a small business, will no longer be able to after Brexit. I think that's primarily what people mean when they talk about the loss of opportunities.

I work freelance here. I haven't created any jobs, I haven't invested massively in the French economy, I'm not raising France's profile on the international scene. I earn enough to live comfortably and I pay my taxes but without freedom of movement that wouldn't have been enough to qualify for a visa. Yes, some people were able to move around pre-freedom of movement and still will be able to post Brexit. But for ordinary folk like me, it's going to be a deal breaker.

I don't know what hoops you had to jump through, whether you needed a visa and what you had to prove to get it. Maybe immigration has been tightened up or maybe your circumstances at the time would still qualify you for a visa now. But maybe spare a thought for those like me who won't have the opportunity that I was fortunate enough to have.
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Eurotrash wrote

I'd say he is a good illustration of what being an EU citizen means. He's taking full advantage of the opportunities that are open to EU citizens yet he is still identified first and foremost as an Irishman.

Quite. Whether it's you or someone else doing the identifying, you can't "lose" who you are, though some try quite hard and some are certainly more hung up on it than others. I regret the swing in the UK away from "nationality" and towards "nationalism". I deeply regret the complete mess we seem intent on leaving our kids to sort out.
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IDUN - Very few WW2 veterans around now and they must be well into their 90's and probably don't understand what the EU is about.

In general people that voted Leave did so because of primarily immigration/migration, sovereignty which all countries keep anyway and UK laws and regulations being controlled by Brussels. They also strongly but incorrectly that the EU is not democratic. Again this mainly because they don't know how the EU works and when pointed to information to help them understand refuse or can't be bothered to read it.

I am one of the generation that Betty mentioned. The damage the UK has done to my future and my children's future (when I get round to having them) is immeasurable and will be even more so if the UK leaves with no deal. So I decided to leave the UK and stay in Europe.

80% of things have already been "agreed" but if there is no deal none of that counts "It's only agreed when it is all agreed". For students it will be the end of Erasmus and Erasmus+ as we know it. Sure you will still be able to study in the EU but the cost will make it unattainable for many.

The thing is Europe, the EU and even the world in general has moved on in leaps and bounds since the 70's. Things are no longer the same and neither are the rules.

How manufacturing is carried out is so different. There was a time when say Ford at Dagenham made every single piece of the car (OK excluding the tyres possibly) on site, no car manufacturer does this these days. Parts are bought from common part manufacturers all over the EU (to maintain the cars EU status) and need to arrive at the factory within a few hours of them being used. The parts go off the lorry straight into the production line. Can you imagine Toyota in the north of the UK stopping the production line because the seats are still stuck at dover due to customs paperwork? It will cost the hundreds of thousands of pound. It's not like a switch that you can turn it on and off when you like. Indeed stopping the production line takes months of planning and usually happen in the August holidays.

My company no longer makes cars in the UK but it does make the common rail diesel engines there. The assembly plants in Europe do not want to wait for their engines to arrive because of customs clearance. Fortunately diesel engines are no longer in favour so coupling that to Brexit they will close the factory down and continue on a smaller scale elsewhere in the EU at a loss of some 2,000 jobs. If the UK bombs out of the EU with no deal and wto tariffs are employed it will be the death of car manufacturing in the UK even if none of it is British owned resulting directly and indirectly in 1.8m job losses (Retail Motor Industry Federation (RMI)).

Of course the leavers will say that the German car industry will suffer, well it may do but think on this that out of the list of the top most popular cars sold in the UK only one is actually made in the UK (Nisan Juke and that might go after Brexit). So unless you want to buy an American car you will have to buy your car from the EU and you will have to pay the tariff or go without.

For my generation being in the EU really is a no brainer, it has to be and the UK has to be a member.
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And a further likely problem for people like CT working for a multinational company:

If, as part of his progression in the company, he needs to take a position in another EU country, there is no guarantee that it would be allowed.

If the company moves its head quarters they may not be able to move with the rest of the staff (unlikely for CT but then I thought I was working for a deep seated German based company but the HQ ended up in Rotterdam) .
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Sorry to be a bore in this very interesting chatter but I have a question re the original documents ie 'L’étranger doit apporter les ORIGINAUX, accompagnés d’une copie, des documents suivants :' - I haven't got any original french bank account statements for the last 5 years as the bank stopped sending them by post some years ago making them only available on-line. I have printed a set off for the last 5 years to hand over as copies but my question is what to do about supplying the originals or do I hope that the interviewer doesn't want to see originals. Hope this makes sense! Mrs KG
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I have at various times presented various documents printed from various online accounts as "originals" and it's never been a problem. There may be a degree of discretion and common sense involved so it may depend how picky and jobsworth your préfecture is. Common sense would say that état civile documents like birth and marriage certificates should be originals, but it's a meaningless concept for utilities bills and suchlike. After all even the tax office is encouraging everyone to go paperless so obviously more and more people's avis are going to be printouts from online...
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Mrs KG - You don't need five years of bank statements only the ones from the last 90 days. That also includes saving accounts. Only students have to give five years of bank statements, it's in the text and links below. It's to prove income. For my father we got two further documents translated. One was his P60 for his private pension and the other his state pension increase letter for 2018. It five years of tax "bills" which you can print off from the French tax website by entering your account with them. Somebody did say exactly how to do it back in this thread and it worked fine.

For you if your retired you need a mix of these two.

You are not active

List of documents to provide

Identity title or valid passport.

Indication of domicile: provided by any means.

3 recent identification photographs (35 mm x 45 mm format - ISO / IEC 19794 - 5: 2005) (no copy).

Documents specific to the reason for the stay:

Proof of health insurance: proof of coverage by health insurance cover and, where applicable, maternity insurance (for the first year of stay, the European health insurance card or the European form of continuity of taking in charge in the country of origin is accepted).

Proof of resources: any document justifying the reality of the resources possessed and the duration during which you will have them: bank account statements, pension statements ... (amount required: equivalent to the active solidarity income (RSA) or to the Solidarity allowance for the elderly (ASPA), calculated according to the composition of the family).

AND

You are applying for a permanent residence card

List of documents to provide

Identity title or valid passport.

Indication of domicile: provided by any means.

3 recent identification photographs (35 mm x 45 mm format - ISO / IEC 19794 - 5: 2005) (no copy).

Documents specific to the reason for the stay:

Proof of continuity of residence for 5 years: one document per semester proving the continuous stay (receipts of rent or charges, invoices ...)

Proof of the right of residence during the previous 5 years: varies according to the category you are reporting (eg for students, justification of the reality of the resources possessed during the previous 5 years: bank balance certificates, bank statements ... ).

Special case: derogations to the condition of 5 years of prior stay:

retirement or early retirement: proof of employment * or employment activity for the last 12 months and proof of the right of residence as a salaried employee for more than 3 years;

permanent incapacity for work: proof of incapacity and the right of residence for more than 2 years as an employee or proof of incapacity resulting from an accident at work or an occupational disease giving entitlement to a pension of one social security institution;

cross-border: over 3 years: proof of professional activity * in another EU state and the maintenance of habitual residence in France (return at least once a week)).

* including periods of involuntary unemployment duly recorded, periods of involuntary cessation of work and absence from work or stoppage for illness or accident.

SOURCES

http://accueil-etrangers.gouv.fr/demande-de-titre-de-sejour/vous-etes-ressortissant-e-de-l-ue/vous-etes-ressortissant-e-de-l-ue/vous-etes-ressortissant-e-de-l-ue/article/vous-etes-non-actif

http://accueil-etrangers.gouv.fr/demande-de-titre-de-sejour/vous-etes-ressortissant-e-de-l-ue/vous-etes-ressortissant-e-de-l-ue/vous-etes-ressortissant-e-de-l-ue/article/vous-demandez-une-carte-de-sejour

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Andy - That's where the newish Blue Card comes in. Once you have it you can move unhindered within the EU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Card_(European_Union)

There is loads of other information about it on the web including how to apply. I am afraid self employed people can't get one.
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The criteria look pretty exclusive though:

https://ec.europa.eu/immigration/bluecard/essential-information_en

e.g.

Your annual gross salary must be high, at least one and a half times the average national salary - except when the lower salary threshold applies

(though saying that, I haven't a clue what the average national salary is in France so maybe it's not that exclusive?)
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Thanks CT for the very informative post.

I am early retired, I've not worked in France and have nothing whatsoever in my name except the UK company pension, an LDD, LEP and Livret A which I have taken copies of. Everything else i.e. EDF, Orange is in OHs name. I have taken copies of our health cover (CPAM) top up insurance, french bank statements, impot, tax hab & fonciere - all of which are in both name. As we are both going on the same morning I'm trying to get a different set of docs for each of us. Basically I'm in the usual panic and trying to cover all eventualities i.e. if one of us hasn't got a document that might be requested the other one hopefully will be able to supply said document!

Thanks again, Mrs KG

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[quote user="EuroTrash"]I have at various times presented various documents printed from various online accounts as "originals" and it's never been a problem. There may be a degree of discretion and common sense involved so it may depend how picky and jobsworth your préfecture is. Common sense would say that état civile documents like birth and marriage certificates should be originals, but it's a meaningless concept for utilities bills and suchlike. After all even the tax office is encouraging everyone to go paperless so obviously more and more people's avis are going to be printouts from online...[/quote]

Our prefecture can be picky! Thanks for the post ET. Mrs KG
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[quote user="andyh4"]And a further likely problem for people like CT working for a multinational company:

If, as part of his progression in the company, he needs to take a position in another EU country, there is no guarantee that it would be allowed.

If the company moves its head quarters they may not be able to move with the rest of the staff (unlikely for CT but then I thought I was working for a deep seated German based company but the HQ ended up in Rotterdam) .[/quote]

I was unable to work there any longer when the multinational company I worked for moved my actual workplace to the USA.[:(]

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