Re-registration no longer required

[Rob Roy]

Did anyone else see the article in the November issue of  'French News' about UK registered cars in France? It states that re-registration in France is no longer required whilst you are the owner of the imported car, although CT and French insurance is, of course.

[Bob T]

And if you believe that........

[AnOther]

This was brought up at the time HERE (page 18...!!!) and as Bob says, and if you believe that !

Playing devils advocat for a moment though and setting aside the law; where exactly is the harm in having a UK plate ?

The sole purpose of a number plate is to uniquely identify a vehicle and all other things being equal, CT, valid insurance etc, what should it matter whether that number is UK, French, Belgian, or whatever, it's function of identification is served.

[Ron Avery]

I suspect that you will see nothing more on this from that paper. They have belatedly written to the Transport Minister for clarification as it has become obvious that what they had been told by a Commerce Agent not the Transport Ministry  contravenes both UK and French law.

They deny the letter is confusing even though it contradicts itself about CTs and registration for example why do you have to register a used car if you move department but not a new car registered in a nother country!!.  They have now sought clarification, but its a pity they did not do that before publishing that article.

The letter on which the article was written is on page 25 of that thread.  Many on this Forum hold a deep mistrust of information from English language papers as they have posted some ridiculously inaccurate statements and advice in the past.

[mint]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

 Many on this Forum hold a deep mistrust of information from English language papers as they have posted some ridiculously inaccurate statements and advice in the past.

[/quote]

I can't myself understand why anyone would want to read these "newspapers".  The journalistic and production values are generally of a low standard and so amateurish that I think they have a nerve to actually expect people to pay for them.

[AnOther]

A new twist.

I yesterday met a French guy who has a collection of classic cars, some of them being British e.g. Healey 3000, pre war MG (yes, I am insanely jealous [:D]) and in the course of an email exchange about insurance for my own MG he wrote the following.

"Ernie , it (véhicule de collection) is cheaper than a normal insurance , but it's not necessary ,to have a "carte grise" de collection , it's like V5 , you can have a normal registration for your MG , and if you want a "collection" registration , it will change in few month ,and you can go where you want.

Now I believe that this is a Frenchman who knows what he is talking about and for the icing on the cake he sent me a photo of his MG complete with it's original UK registration number.

Whether this applies only to cars which qualify as véhicule de collection or not I don't know but will be asking him today.

[IMG]http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p123/biskitboyo/mg.jpg[/IMG]

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="The French guy"]

"Ernie , it (véhicule de collection) is cheaper than a normal insurance , but it's not necessary ,to have a "carte grise" de collection , it's like V5 , you can have a normal registration for your MG , and if you want a "collection" registration , it will change in few month ,and you can go where you want.

[/quote]

Translation:

Ernie, classic car insurance is cheaper than normal insurance but it's not necessary to have a classic car registration to get it.  You can obtain it even if your car has a normal registration.  If you want a classic car registration, then the departmental driving limitations will change in a few months and you can drive it where you want.

Nothing to do with not having to register....

 

[pimpernel]

Never mind the legalities.    What a beautiful car that is

[AnOther]

That is indeed my understanding of it SD however the thing I'm really interested in is the legal retention of the UK number and not having to change to a French one which does seem possible but under what specific circumstances I have yet to determine.

Maybe this is the source of the (dis)information on the subject we have seen published elsewhere [8-)]

Incidentally the car was quite badly crashed at the weekend at a race meeting somewhere but will be repaired [:'(] [:D]

[Ron Avery]

" ErnieY rote "what should it matter whether that number is UK, French, Belgian, or whatever, it's function of identification is served"

Well it probably matters to the French Belgians, British and all other EU countries, who only keep records of cars registered in their own countries.  The function of identification you describe only identifies the car to its owner, nobody else.  Think identification to whom and recorded where and who by.

 

[Sunday Driver]

What makes you think this is a case of legal retention of the number plate and not having to change to a French one?

If you're basing this supposition on this one photograph, was it taken just after he purchased/imported the car and before it was registered?  Does he continue to display the UK registration number for racing/show purposes and trailer the car to meetings?

The code de la route says that all road vehicles must be registered.  In the case of classic cars, there are special arrangements for this, but even they have to be registered. 

End of story.

 

 

[Chancer]

Ernie

You like me have found that french petrol-heads seem to know and use many dodges, if they were an English immigrant doing the same it would get some peoples hackles up on this forum, but for them (and the admirers of their interesting UK imports) it is just seen as a means to an end to indulge their passion.

Re the UK reg I have 2 suggestions as to what he may be doing.

Either as a racing or show car he likes to display the original UK reg, it may or may not also be French registered.

Or he has bought the car from/via a UK contact who has allowed him to keep it registered in his name as the new keeper but at the contacts Uk address. He has then got the classic insurance as above from a specialist broker (as the vehicle would not be listed on a mainsteam insurers database of homologated vehicles) who is not overtly worried about hassling the insured to reregister it. I know of several French that do this, most of them seem to use Belgian contacts, probably due to the common language.

One French friend bought a Westfield via me from another UK friend who allowed him to keep it registered at his Uk address but in my French friends name, he had no problems regarding insurance or from  the local gendarmes who admired the car and no doubt knew exactly what he was doing. Eveything was fine for a couple of years until one of his numerous "cinq à septs" became the woman scorned, her Gendarme husband was not too amused when she confessed to him, said gendarme gave my friend a visit promising to be watching him from now on especially if he dared to drive his still UK registered kit car.

My friend had to sell the car but was beseiged by French buyers all well versed in how they were going to insure and keep it UK registered.

Interestingly he paid over the odds for a not particularly good example (by UK standards) but sold it after 2 years at a good profit which bought him a small house with land and services in my village.

[raindog]

[quote user="ErnieY"]

[IMG]http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p123/biskitboyo/mg.jpg[/IMG]

[/quote]

Ernie, do you know anything about this car?

I used to dabble in sprinting and hill climbing pre war MGs. The ultimate MG was the K3 racing model. This car has been made to look like  a K3 but there's loads of stuff "wrong" with it. I think it might be an N type rebodied. Just interested that's all.

(oops, sorry to wreck the thread)

[Chancer]

[quote user="raindog"][quote user="ErnieY"]

[IMG]http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p123/biskitboyo/mg.jpg[/IMG]

[/quote]
 This car has been made to look like  a K3 but there's loads of stuff "wrong" with it. I think it might be an N type rebodied. Just interested that's all.
(oops, sorry to wreck the thread)
[/quote]

 

Not wrecking the thread at all, you have raised an important point and confirmed to me that the car is not as originally produced/imported/homologated.

This is probably why the owner has not been able to gain a French registration for it. The FFVE (or is it FFVA?) are not as flexible as one would hope in helping to register voitures de collections, if the vehicle has been rebodied and it is not (what was) a recognised homologated conversion the answer will be No!

One good example, in the 60's and 70's many VW beetles were rebodied as beach buggies, on the V5 they are still a VW but with a change of body type. Whereas a more modern incarnation could not be registered due to lack of  a COC or DRIRE attestation, one would reasonably expect that one over 30 years old would be accepted by the FFVE for what it is, namely a VW Beetle with a change of body type.

In reality only one type of beach buggie (I cant remember the type) was ever imported and homologated in France, by the importer of course, - some things never change! This is the only one which the FFVE will accept.

[Rob Roy]

[quote user="ErnieY"]

This was brought up at the time HERE (page 18...!!!) and as Bob says, and if you believe that !

Playing devils advocat for a moment though and setting aside the law; where exactly is the harm in having a UK plate ?

The sole purpose of a number plate is to uniquely identify a vehicle and all other things being equal, CT, valid insurance etc, what should it matter whether that number is UK, French, Belgian, or whatever, it's function of identification is served.

[/quote]

Sorry, didn't realise this particular information had all been discussed before. I couldn't be bothered to read through all the pontificating that was going on on the other thread previously but have now had a look at your Page 18 and subsequent pages.

One thing that struck me is that no-one had the courtesy to respond at all to the posting from the Editor of 'French News', but had been happy to castigate her publication.

I don't normally buy the paper, but went to pick up a friend at Limoges airport the other day and realised I had no change for the car park, so bought it then - hence it was the November issue and I was a bit behind the times with the news!

However, in response to Sweet17's criticism of the paper I have to say that I would rather buy and read a copy of 'French News' than any of the appalling British tabloids that are being avidly read by passengers awaiting flights.[Www]

[Ron Avery]

"One thing that struck me is that no-one had the courtesy to respond at all to the posting from the Editor of 'French News', but had been happy to castigate her publication".

Sorry all those posts were boring, Rob,   only read the interesting bits next time[:D].

Many people contacted French News as invited to by the Editor.  If you had read all the relevant threads after that posting you would have found this:

"The letter actually says:

 Objet : immatriculation et contrôle technique des véhicules pour les résidents britanniques

L'immatriculation

L'immatriculation est obligatoire au sens de l'article R.322-1 du code de la route pour tout véhicule d'un poids total en charge de plus de 500 kg,  lequel serait mis pour la première fois en circulation.

 Cette disposition s'applique aux véhicules neufs nouvellement acquis. L'acquisition d'un véhicule d'occasion soumis à immatriculation et immatriculé donne lieu à modification de son immatriculation.

Dans le cas d'une personne résident en France et ressortissante d'un autre État membre, ayant acquis un véhicule dans cet autre État membre, véhicule par ailleurs déjà mis en circulation, l'immatriculation de ce véhicule ne semble pas obligatoire.

 

Le contrôle technique

Le contrôle technique est obligatoire selon l'article R.323-1 du code de la route pour la mise en circulation comme pour le maintien en circulation du véhicule. Il est à noter que l'immatriculation du véhicule n'est pas une condition d'applicabilité de l'obligation relative au contrôle technique.

Dès lors, le propriétaire d'un véhicule non immatriculé en France mais circulant dans notre pays doit satisfaire aux conditions de contrôle technique fixées par l'article R.323-1 du code de la route.

Néanmoins, un véhicule immatriculé dans un Etat membre et utilisé en France peut passer le contrôle technique dans cet autre Etat membre, à condition de pouvoir le prouver à l'occasion de contrôles. En effet, la directive 96/96/CE prévoit la reconnaissance par les autres Etats membres du contrôle technique effectué par l'Etat membre d'immatriculation du véhicule. Ainsi, un véhicule immatriculé en Grande Bretagne qui a passé le contrôle technique dans cet État n'a pas à subir ce contrôle en France. Au contraire, un véhicule immatriculé en Grande Bretagne qui n'aurait pas passé le contrôle technique dans cet Etat doit le passer en France.

Assurance :

 Le code des assurances (article L.211-1, tel que modifié par la loi n°99-505 du 18 juin 1999) prévoit qu'une personne, dont la responsabilité peut être en engagée raison de dommages dans la réalisation desquels un véhicule terrestre à moteur est impliqué, doit souscrire une assurance pour pouvoir faire circuler ce véhicule.

La directive 2005/14/CE, modifiant la directive 72/166/CE prévoit en son article 3 que chaque Etat membre doit prendre toute mesure utile pour que la responsabilité civile relative à la circulation des véhicules ayant leur stationnement habituel sur son territoire soit couverte.

Dès lors, un ressortissant communautaire, résident en France et possédant un véhicule terrestre à moteur, doit souscrire pour celui-ci une assurance responsabilité civile dans son pays d'origine ou en France.

 

Bien cordialement,

 Luc VILLENEUVE

Chef du bureau

de la législation économique et domaniale

et du droit communautaire (DGPA/DAJIL/ED4)

We were invited to ask for this letter so I did and reported the outcome.   The editor of French News told me that the motoring correspondent was going to respond further but hasn't yet, perhaps he has not been able to sit at his desk yet after his thorough thrashing.[6]

 As I said earlier they are now seeking clarification from the Ministry of Transport. Given that this letter says registration seems not to be necessary, you would have thought they would have asked for a definite answer.

You would have also read that most people believe that the "registration" of new cars referred to here is not getting number plates, its the registration of the VIN etc.  Its a pity that this did not occur to French News before they published that article.  

[Rob Roy]

As I said I did read from page 18 onwards, but still did not see any direct response to the Editor on this forum, which I find rather rude.

Going back to my original post, and looking at what you have printed above, it still implies that re-registration of a secondhand car brought from the UK to France is not required.

[Ron Avery]

"it still implies that re-registration of a secondhand car brought from the UK to France is not required"

Rob

The letter actually says the complete opposite:

"L'immatriculation est obligatoire au sens de l'article R.322-1 du code de la route pour tout véhicule d'un poids total en charge de plus de 500 kg,  lequel serait mis pour la première fois en circulation.  Cette disposition s'applique aux véhicules neufs nouvellement acquis.

L'acquisition d'un véhicule d'occasion soumis à immatriculation et immatriculé donne lieu à modification de son immatriculation."

Which makes no sense.  The letter is suggesting not stating as a fact, that a new vehicle already "registered" in the UK does not need to be re-registered in France, but states that a used car has to be re-registered if there is a change in the registration, ie owner, department etc.  As many have pointed out, if a vehicle is in France for more than 12 months the UK DVLA treats it as exported and records of keepers etc are not retained, so who keeps the records of UK plated cars in France, well nobody as it stands.  But we are going over old ground again here.

[AnOther]

Further to my post yesterday I've been talking again to the owner of the MG and it seems it is, as JR suggested, a "petrol head dodge" and a quite widely practiced one too.

Apparently, as far as classic cars are concerned, re-registration and even CT are "optional" and so long as a vehicle has insurance and is not a palpably dangerous wreck the police simply turn a blind eye.

Despite this I doubt I shall be going down that road myself so to speak.

There is much discussion and speculation about the forthcoming changes but little is known for sure (now where have we heard that recently..?!?) although the generally concensus is that they are likely to be quite beneficial  to the classic car fraternity. 

[Ron Avery]

"re-registration and even CT are "optional" and so long as a vehicle has insurance and is not a palpably dangerous wreck the police simply turn a blind eye" 

That is just not true. The Police don't turn a blind eye to anything.

You can run a vintage vehicle or vehicle de Collection as it is called in France legally without a CT or type approval by DRIRE,  but it still has to be registered in France and with the appropriate body Fédération Française des Véhicules d'Epoque to have "collection status".

[AnOther]

I won't disagree with you Ron, right or wrong I'm simply reitrating what a prominent and well respected member of the local car club has told me actually goes on around here.

Maybe it has something to do with the club numbering several police officers amongt it's numbers [;-)]

[AnOther]

[quote user="raindog"][quote user="ErnieY"]

[IMG]http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p123/biskitboyo/mg.jpg[/IMG]

[/quote]
Ernie, do you know anything about this car?
I used to dabble in sprinting and hill climbing pre war MGs. The ultimate MG was the K3 racing model. This car has been made to look like  a K3 but there's loads of stuff "wrong" with it. I think it might be an N type rebodied. Just interested that's all.
(oops, sorry to wreck the thread)
[/quote]Raindog,

From the owner:

"My MG is a TA special 1937  rebodied ,with aluminium body like K 3 , this one, was the property of Andy King ,  British specialist and racing driver for pre-war MG .  It's a very fast and funny car"

I think he means FUN...........[:D]

[raindog]

Thanks for the info ernie - it certainly LOOKS fun!

Thought he might like to see my heap.

"N"type chassis, "K"type axles, TC engine/gearbox with Laystall/Lucas aluminium head with big valves.

I built the body myself from sheet aluminium. The petrol tank is aly too and was a reserve tank from a 'C' type Jaguar.

It was "funny" too. [:D]

I built it primarily for sprints and hillclimbs but used it on the road for about a year.

[IMG]http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q223/sheeponabike/MG.jpg[/IMG]

[Chancer]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

"re-registration and even CT are "optional" and so long as a vehicle has insurance and is not a palpably dangerous wreck the police simply turn a blind eye" 

That is just not true. The Police don't turn a blind eye to anything.

[/quote]

 

To put a seasonal pantomime spin on it "oh yes they do!!!!" - Turn a blind eye to things that is.

It was being involved with the French classic and racing enthusiasts that led to me living here, I have known a lot of these collectors/pilotes of British classic, kit and racing cars for over 10 years in both the Nord/Pas de Calais and Picardie. Also many French members of the Belgium 7 and roadster club from Paris and other regions.

With the exception of one individual that I met at Montlhery who had a 75 registered Lotus 7, he turned out to be a homologation engineer for Renault and was able to source or create the 1970's homologation documents, all of them have their vehicles carrying Belgium or UK plates, several of them are indeed Gendarmes.

In my experience the only time the blind eye has ever been opened was when my friend dallied with the wife of an overzealous/overjealous Gendarme, he had his fortune read by said "flic" and had to sell the car, it was bought by another Gendarme in the departement!