Winter Tyres/Snow Chains???

[Joanne]

Hello, we are driving to a ski resort in Lorraine for Christmas.  We would be grateful for any advice regarding the use of/need for winter tyres and/or snow chains [8-)]

[Pickles]

If you are on summer tyres, then you will need to have snow chains in case the road is covered in snow: you may find yourself in a queue of cars being directed into a layby in order to put chains on. If you have properly marked winter tyres on, you should be able to continue unmolested (but will still need a set of chains).

Personally, having tried winter tyres and summer tyres on snow, you would be amazed at the extent to which the car's handling is improved on snow by the use of winter tyres. A reasonable alternative to winter tyres is to use four-seasons tyres. These are rated for use on snow (you can check that they have the snowflake and mountain symbol on the sidewall) and whilst they will not be as good as proper snow tyres, they will give you, say, 80% of the advantage of winter tyres whilst being suitable for year-round use. Goodyear do a pretty good one (Vector four seasons). You can of course use winter tyres year-round but they are not as good as summer tyres at higher road temperatures.

If you are going to drive to ski resorts regularly, it may be worth while investing in a set of winter tyres on steel wheels, or else just upgrading to four-seasons tyres as your existing tyres wear out.

[Araucaria]

Joanne - if you are going to one of the ski resorts in the Vosges mountains (which one, exactly?) you may find they don't have too much trouble keeping the roads clear for traffic in late December. From my limited experience of the area you may be hoping that there's snow rather than fearing that there will be too much.

The higher resorts in the Alps do make it worthwhile buying snow chains. If the cost is really a factor, you might want to check the state of the roads immediately before you drive down before buying them.

[idun]

Chains are obviously the cheaper option. For many years our snow tyres went on with the first snow and were on until the spring every year.... and we had chains too, because for all the snow tyres improved handling, there were times when chains were essential.

If you want to be prepared, I'd get chains.

I must say, until a friend went to the Vosges a few years ago, I had never thought of sking there and never have. I would hope that they could cope with keeping the roads open, it isn't as if it 'high' round there, well in comparison to the Alps to the south, it isn't.

[sid]

My understanding is that snow chains are compulsory in certain mountainous regions at certain times, so snow tyres alone wouldn't be enough. You could find that you are not allowed to continue up the mountain.

Not surprisingly though it's the snow chain vendors who say this. I've never driven to ski resorts in the winter, only to Alpe d'Huez in the summer!

[Pickles]

[quote user="sid"]My understanding is that snow chains are compulsory in certain mountainous regions at certain times, so snow tyres alone wouldn't be enough. You could find that you are not allowed to continue up the mountain.

Not surprisingly though it's the snow chain vendors who say this. I've never driven to ski resorts in the winter, only to Alpe d'Huez in the summer![/quote]

Two situations arise:

1: You come across the sign B26 mentioned in this document, with a panel underneath saying "pneus neige admis": you can continue if you have winter tyres OR chains.

2: You come across the sign B26 mentioned in this document, with no panel underneath: you MUST have chains.

Even if you have winter tyres, as Sid and Idun have noted, you must also have chains, so if this is a one-off, chains alone could suffice. You can hire good-quality ones in the UK. Poor-quality ones wear out more quickly. If you have low-profile tyres, check in your car's manual as to what type of chain to use (ie the thickness): clearances around the wheel and other components may be tight.

[idun]

Chains, chains, chains........ we have or had lots of them. Never seemed to get a car that would fit the ones we had. And they can be a pain (I am being polite in the extreme there) to put on.. And I have always been told that they are easy, even when they are not. Trouble is that when you need them on, it is cold and snowy and fingers are not as agile as they normally are.

And then there are the easy ones, that go on in seconds and away you go.

 

 

[sid]

[quote user="idun"]

Chains, chains, chains........ we have or had lots of them. Never seemed to get a car that would fit the ones we had.  ....

[/quote]

The normal procedure is to get chains to fit the car, not the other way round. [;-)]

[Pickles]

[quote user="sid"]The normal procedure is to get chains to fit the car, not the other way round. [;-)][/quote]

I can entirely sympathise with Idun. We bought chains for an older-model Civic. Wrong size for the Yaris that replaced it, or the slightly newer Civic that we had. The ones for the Yaris were no good for the Civic either. The ones for the old Saab don't fit its replacement. In the meantime, we made the mistake of hiring a Punto in Italy in October and taking it into Austria. All OK ... until it snowed. Of course it was on summer tyres. New set of chains purchased, different size to all the rest once again! I find it amazing that I seem to have a full set of chains and yet not all tyre sizes are covered by what I have! OH says "Whay can't we just have ONE set at a time?" She doesn't understand ...

[andyh4]

So assuming you will go fr the chains option, the next thing is to practice putting them on.

 

As Idun hints at, getting them on quickly and proficiently is far preferable to being bent double, at -3°C, in a snow covered layby, with a howling wind, in the dark, torch held in mouth, while trying to understand the Chinese English instructions and decide which way up the diagramme is supposed to be..

[idun]

ROFL.......... andyh4........ ah yes, you forgot to add the domestic dispute as they who are on all fours aren't managing to keep the torch in their chattering teeth and need the other one to hold it. So the screaming match, 'THERE! (and worse)' as if the one holding the torch can see over hunched shoulders in the dark as to where exactly they are working, nay fumbling. Then all smiles and relief when it's 'job done' and off on one's merry way! (And I haven't forgotten the 'head' lamp, which knocks on the rim and shines everywhere but where it should)

We did have a go with new chains,  dummy runs, usually in good weather on our drive way and it never helped me, but I'm sure, more adept people than me would benefit enormously from trial runs. I am rather ham fisted. Although in fairness, my other half usually isn't ham fisted, but freezing conditions never helped him manage any better.

 

And then there are those that just slip on and are easy peasy, but they are not easy to find.

And yes, we always bought for the car. But in 27 years, we had many cars, sometimes the newer model of the last one and the 'meanies(being polite)' had different size tyres....... and we needed  yet more new chains.

 

Good luck to the OP. I hope that you don't need to use them.

[Pierre ZFP]

Just to muddy the waters a little further, Luxembourg has introduced a law that all vehicles must have winter tyres (actually I think it says something like 'Tyres appropriate to the season' ) from 1st October !  I usually change mine,  like most people, in November as if it is too warm they wear out quickly.  Also, in ill thought out fashion, it is by no means clear if it applies to Fronteliers or those just it transit - we will wait and see.

[Pickles]

[quote user="Pierre ZFP"]Just to muddy the waters a little further, Luxembourg has introduced a law that all vehicles must have winter tyres (actually I think it says something like 'Tyres appropriate to the season' ) from 1st October !  I usually change mine,  like most people, in November as if it is too warm they wear out quickly.  Also, in ill thought out fashion, it is by no means clear if it applies to Fronteliers or those just it transit - we will wait and see.[/quote]

Interestingly, "appropriate" tyres were apparently previously specified in German legislation ...until the authorities lost a case on the premise that "winter" tyres were not specifically required by the legislation. The new law passed in Germany in November 2010 as a result specifies "winter tyres".

[Pierre ZFP]

Full page ad in the local Luxembourg free paper this morning saying (please excuse my translation)

For your safety, from 1st October when the conditions are wintery, it is obligatory to drive with winter tyres or 'all weather' tyres marked 'M.S', 'M+S', 'M&S' or alpin symbol (mountain with 3 pics of snowflakes)

No mention of Fronteliers or vehicles in transit.

More info HERE

 

[HoneySuckleDreams]

[quote user="Pierre ZFP"]

No mention of Fronteliers or vehicles in transit.

[/quote]

I've just asked my work mates about that. They drive in from Belgium each day. Apparently you have to have snow tyres if you drive in Luxembourg, that is to say, if you drive from Belgium across Lux into Germany, it's the law that you must have snow tyres on for that part of the drive. Obviously for them, they come and go each day so they fit the tyres early October and keep them on over the winter. My German colleagues fit snow tyres as the rule in Germany is that you must be able to make "adequate progress" in your car, and you get fined if you can't (watching all those GB cars ice dancing when there is a few mm's of snow in the UK springs to mind).

It's also illegal to have snow tyres on in the summer...breaking distances apparently.

A few points from my Canadian mate who is "Mr Tyres".

1) if the temperature drops below -20 your snow tyres are just as ineffective as normal tyres. Don't drive.

2) snow tyres don't work very well on ice (there are tyres you can buy that work ok, but they are a tad expensive)

3) if you drive a 4x4 you are just as likely to hit something if you don't have snow tyres on as non 4x4 cars (they start and corner better but stopping is just as bad). It's a myth that 4x4 cars are better handling on snow.

[Pierre ZFP]

Interesting, I still see plenty of cars from France and Belgium without winter tyres though, I guess they're just chancing it.

I agree completely with your Canadian chum.  I think winter tyres work best around -10 and yes, if too cold, nothing much will help.  I was in Italy in temps of -23 and that was well, interesting [:-))]

 

[Théière]

[quote user="HoneySuckleDreams"]It's a myth that 4x4 cars are better handling on snow.[/quote]

??x??

[idun]

Cold and cars, well I don't know how cold it was at Les Menuires one xmas holiday evening, but felt like the gear box oil was thickening and we couldn't drive off.

There is more to winter driving than 'just' the tyres. I always tried to fill up with gasole that was supposedly up to very very cold temperatures. We always had spare warm clothes, sleeping bags,drinks, a shovel and food in the car. I also liked to have some dish washer salt, or cat lit, in case we got stuck somewhere which was very icy.

 

[Joanne]

Wow! I'm amazed by the quantity/quality of all your replies - thank you very much for taking the time.

[Chancer]

How much does it cost you people to have all your tyres changedand presumably balanced  twice a year?

I assume that the snow tyres aren't cheap, how many seasons do they last?

Do people invest in a second set of rims to do their own changeovers?

Do whole sets of wheels and tyres often go walkies in your areas?

 

[idun]

Now you are asking. If I try and answer I'll be guessing.

I know that we didn't have snow tyres for our last two cars, just chains, as arthritic knees had put pay to skiing.

[Rabbie]

When I was in Sweden in the1980's we used studded winter tyres between November and April. They usually lasted for about 25000 km.

[Pickles]

[quote user="Chancer"]How much does it cost you people to have all your tyres changedand presumably balanced  twice a year?[/quote]

If you use snow tyres, then you generally put them on a set of steel rims. If you use all-seasons tyres, then you run on the same set all the time.

[quote user="Chancer"]I assume that the snow tyres aren't cheap, how many seasons do they last?[/quote]

Well, when you are wearing down the snow tyres, you aren't wearing down your summer tyres, but ours (for the car based in France) have lasted several seasons thus far. They aren't necessarily expensive - remember that you are allowed to go down one speed rating if you wish.

[quote user="Chancer"]Do people invest in a second set of rims to do their own changeovers?[/quote]

Yes - usually in a size that keeps the tyres relatively cheap and the steel wheel cheap

[quote user="Chancer"]Do whole sets of wheels and tyres often go walkies in your areas?[/quote]

I haven't lost any - but ours are in a cave. You'd need to know what car they were for, and second-hand they might be difficult to dispose of as quickly as a thief would want to.

[Théière]

Chancer, I have Continental winter contact snow tyres on spare steel rims, loss of a days income due to snow and they are paid for. Being front wheel drive I only have them on the front as the back just follows [:)] of course on rear wheel drives you'll need to invest in 4

[andyh4]

Chancer

 

As someone "forced" by law to have winter tyres here are my answers

 

How much does it cost you people to have all your tyres changedand presumably balanced  twice a year?

19€ per throw - so 39€ per year

 

I assume that the snow tyres aren't cheap, how many seasons do they last?

 

Depends obviously on mileage but my last set did well in excess of 50k front and 80k back.  Rims and tyres cost around 450€ new tyres around 350€ - without shopping around, since I just do not have the time.

 

Perhaps should also say that I probably wore them down more quickly than necessary because I could not get them changed until June - car and me in France - tyres in Germany!!

 

Do people invest in a second set of rims to do their own changeovers?

Second set of rims means they can be changed in minutes

 

Do whole sets of wheels and tyres often go walkies in your areas?

 

Not round here - but then we are out in the sticks and the highlight of crime was when a 15 year old car got stolen 4 years ago.

 

 

Having had to change tyres for years, I would not go back to trying to run on normal tyres all year - but then we are in a mountainous area where we get very low temperatures and usually quite a bit of snow.