Trailer newbie needs rules guidance

[michelin79]

I'm sure it's all been covered before but perhaps not in a concise way so I've set out what I think I've found from threads on here and the other place and other searches. Please correct me where I'm actually wrong and fill in the gaps where I have question marks (apologies if absolutely everything was on here anyway - but it will help me to see it all on one page). This is not a thread about insurance as I'm assuming everyone would check what's allowed on their individual insurance. However, if any of the combinations are never normally insured, could you knowledgeable people please comment.

1. UK resident, UK reg car, UK licence, driving in the UK

Dependent on when the licence was obtained but the most restrictive (for recently obtained licences):

a)trailers up to and including 750kg

b)trailers over 750kg provided car plus trailer <3500kg

2. UK resident, UK reg car, UK licence, driving in France

Do the rules above apply or the rules below?

3. French resident, French registered car, UK or French licence, driving in France

a)trailers up to 500kg

b)trailers 500kg to 750kg carte grise required

c)trailers above 750kg carte grise and brakes

4.French resident, French registered car, UK or French licence, driving in the UK

Presumably if you're complying with the French rules you're ok for the UK?

5.Going back to to paragraph 3, it's never been clear to me whether the figures are "up to" or "up to and including" so it would be good if someone could complete the following:

499kg no carte grise or brakes required

500kg ???

501kg carte grise required but brakes not necessary

749kg carte grise required but brakes not necessary

750kg ???

751kg carte grise and brakes required

6. Am I right in thinking it's the rating that counts for the above rules, not the actual load?

[idun]

The only thing that I shall add to this thread is that the gendarmes are currently stopping vehicules and weighing them, and if they are over the maximum weight for that vehicule are making people remove the excess goods that weigh too much.

It was on french news a few nights ago, they showed the gendarmes doing this, it was cars, caravans, and trailers. Cannot remember if they were fined or points taken, maybe it is still on France 2 news, Journal de 20h as I think that they show a previous evenings news broadcasts, for a few days at least.

[dave21478]

1 - as far as I know, yes provided trailer doesnt weigh more than the car. Given most cars are plated to a gross weight of 1.8 - 2.2 tons and more for 4x4s this doesnt leave you much room for a trailer and still be under 3.5 tons total.

2 - rules from 1 apply - what is legal in your home country is legal in other member states.

3 - I dont see a question there, but yes. up to 500kg uses the cars numberplate and insurance, 500 to 750 needs a carte gris and separate insurance, 750+ needs CG, insurance and brakes.

4 - yep, as for 2, whatever works at home works elsewhere.

5 - I think its up to and including, so up to 500, 501 to 750 and 750+

6 - tricky. In UK it is plated max weight of the trailer that is taken into account whether it it loaded or empty, so if you towed a 3.5ton gross flatbed that was empty and actually weighed only 600kgs, you would still be charged with exceeding the tow weight of your car, if its less than 3.5 tons. Or at least it used to be - I got charged by the cozzers for exactly that, shifting an empty large trailer with a small van and had my pants pulled down over it.

I heard rumour that this was to be changed and the ACTUAL weight of the trailer would be whats taken into account. This makes sense to me because I was charged with a crime I might commit in the future - IE I might have put something on the trailer that took it over weight. I argued the toss with the police man and he didnt see the amusing side when I told him he better charge me with murder as well as I might go home and kill some hookers to relieve stress later that evening.

My borther in law reckons its the same in France, ie plated weight not actual weight, but he isnt exactly a reliable source of facts, so God knows.

[AnOther]

500 to 750 needs a carte gris and separate insurance.

Not necessarily as many car insurance policies include cover for trailers up to 750kg.

This gives a good overview of towing limits.

[url]http://www.activehorsetransports.com/reglementation_remorque.pdf[/url]

"In UK it is plated max weight of the trailer that is taken into account"

It's the same in France and elsewhere AFAIK

[Chancer]

[quote user="dave21478"]6 - tricky. In UK it is plated max weight of the trailer that is taken into account whether it it loaded or empty, so if you towed a 3.5ton gross flatbed that was empty and actually weighed only 600kgs, you would still be charged with exceeding the tow weight of your car, if its less than 3.5 tons. Or at least it used to be - I got charged by the cozzers for exactly that, shifting an empty large trailer with a small van and had my pants pulled down over it.
I heard rumour that this was to be changed and the ACTUAL weight of the trailer would be whats taken into account. This makes sense to me because I was charged with a crime I might commit in the future - IE I might have put something on the trailer that took it over weight. I argued the toss with the police man and he didnt see the amusing side when I told him he better charge me with murder as well as I might go home and kill some hookers to relieve stress later that evening.

[/quote]

Great response.

I used to tow a huge heavy van trailer which was 2.7m tall and wider than my tow vehicle, even unladen it was pretty dodgy and if the COG of the load was only a little way off the floor it was lethal, I never got stopped thankfully but the bizzys that tugged you would have had a problem as it was not plated, the only thing that I could find was that the suspension units had 1600kg stamped on them, not sure if that was for one or a pair, the thing weighed 770kg unladen and I carried over 2 tonne several times and 2.5 tonne on one occasion, it was frankly lethal at that weight being towed by a 1300kg vehicle, I think the later weight limitations on driving licenses are sensible.

After a massive Brown trouser moment on the M25 I sold it, I have now got une roulotte/cabin de chantier, best thing since sliced bread, only cost €200 a really heavy duty axle, no suspension (the tyres do the job) no brakes, no coupling just a large tractor towing eye, I think that its Under 500kg but my corner weight scales are in the UK and it tows like a dream compared to the last behemoth yet its 2m tall Inside and maybe 1.8 wide by 4m long (not sure) I have never seen one with a reg plate but that means in theory I cannot tow it with a load, doesnt matter for now as its storing my materials. in any case it must be already above the 500kg as it has been lined.

[dave21478]

In UK at a VOSA checkpoint they will determine the trailers gross weight if it doesnt have a plate by looking for tyre load ratings, hitch load rating and axle plates if present.

This was in a large part due to pike....err...you cant call them that anymore.....caravan-dwelling tarmac driveway specialists.....knocking the plates of 3.5 ton plant trailers so they could "legally" tow them with their favourite Pajeros, only rated to 2.8 tons.

[michelin79]

Thanks to all who responded. As I said I'm a total newbie to the world of towing. I think I can't be bothered with the carte grise hassle and probably too much of a wimp to get involved with megaton stuff. On the other hand, looking at the small capacity of 500kg trailers, I'm minded to get a bit braver or not to bother at all. But as I've just paid to have a towbar fitted, I guess I'd better do something. Perhaps I'll search for a 500kg one with maximum footprint or perhaps I'll knock up a plywood "enhancement" for dechetterie trips.

I apologise that I'm now going to get pedantic over the 499/500/501kg. Dave thinks that it's up to and including the 500 and nobody has disputed that. I have seen trailers with 500kg rating but I've also seen them with 499kg rating suggesting that they think it has to be under 500. Can someone tell me where the actual bible is on this. I thought I had found something in writing in AnOther's horsey reference:

Les papiers :

Jusqu'à 500 kg de PTAC, aucun document spécial n'est requis.

Au-dessus de 500 kg de PTAC, la remorque doit avoir sa propre carte grise.

La plaque d'immatriculation :

Jusqu'à 500 kg de PTAC, elle reproduit le numéro du véhicule tracteur.

Au-dessus de 500 kg de PTAC, la remorque doit avoir sa propre carte grise et donc son propre

numéro d'immatriculation.

...which says up to and including. But then later on in that document:

Réception des remorques de moins de 500 kg :

Les remorques dont le poids total en charge est inférieur à 500 kg ne sont soumises ni à la

réception ni à l'immatriculation

...which says (I think) up to but not including. So come on o' wise ones; bible reference please!

[AnOther]

You're over thinking it, 500kg is 500kg whichever way you look at it so 'Jusqu'à 500 kg de PTAC' means 500kg but not a gramme more.

[michelin79]

You are probably right that I overthink things and you're definitely correct in saying that 'Jusqu'à 500 kg de PTAC' means 500kg but not a gramme more.

But the point I was making was that the second quote from the horsey document does not say that. It says 'moins de 500 kg' which means up to 499.99 recurring and does not include 500kg.

To use the basic algebraic terms: '<' is not the same as '<='.

So I'm still left wondering which government document spells it out. Maybe that would also have different information in different paragraphs but it would not be good law making.

[dave21478]

Dont worry about 1kg either way - nobody else is.

In the adverts I get every week there is usually one from my local Espace Agri tractor spares/tool place who sell these metal trailers in various sizes. Something they and many other sellers regularly do is state in the advert that the trailer PTAC is 500kgs, or 750kgs or whatever the case may be, yet make a point that the axles are rated to 1 ton or 2x 750kgs for a twin axle - the clear implication is the trailer is capable of carrying the higher load but de-rated on the plaque to avoid requirement of brakes/carte gris etc etc.

[AnOther]

Quite, and I have such a trailer.

It's a twin axle rated at 500kg but an identical trailer but with brakes is rated at 1000kg.