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parking fine - should I contest it?


frank

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Hi all,

A few weeks ago my wife and I went to our local town (Aurillac) to run a small errand. We picked a bad day for it as it was the day before the town opens a 4-day festival and virtually closes off the whole of the town centre, even the car parks in the centre and all the streets around the edges of the town are closed for parking too. So, it's a nightmare if you need to go there with a car. Even if it is the day before the festival begins.

People were having to park way out of town and you can imagine that finding a space anywhere was virtually imposible, especially so because the amount of tourists who came in for festival must have trebled the normal population. Along with many others, we had to park on a side street and actually had to mount, and park, on the pavement. There must have been twenty cars on the stretch of pavement we were on. The walk into town took us a good fifteen minutes.

Today we had an Avis de Contravention and a 135 euro parking fine. The form states that we caused a nuisance by parking on the pavement. Apart from the fact that it seems a bit mean of the council to impose fines during the time of the festival, I can see that parking as we (and many others) did would cause problems for pedestrians, although so far out of town there were very few pedestrians anyway. Add to that the fact that on the street where we parked (and all over the town) young people, students probably, were standing around in high visability vests, presumably directing or "controlling" traffic. Two of them walked past us as we parked the car and never said a word.

There are two things I'm not happy about concerning the Avis. Firstly, the street name stated on the form is not actually the street we parked on. It's a different street that runs parallel. The other thing is that on the form it states the term "Agent verbalisateur No. 00441410". Would this be refering to the person who actually reported the car as being illegally parked? What, or who, is an Agent verbalisateur? A policeman? A member of the public? One of those students? Can we trace this person if we wanted to? Would the fact that the street name is wrong anyway give us cause to contest the fine?

135 euros is a lot of money considering we had little choice other than to park where we did. Why do the French do this i.e. frustrate the hell out of you sometimes. The amount of money generated by the thousands of people who were in town for the festival ought to have satisfied the council enough without having to grab money from probably hundreds of motorists, most of whom would have been locals anyway.

I'll probably just bite my lip and pay the fine. Would you? Or would you attempt to trace Agent verbalisateur No. 00441410 and throw a brick through his windows?

Thanks.

Frank
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You did have a choice, you chose to park on the pavement.

 

You now have a choice to pay the fine or face the conséquences.

 

As you talk glibly about throwing a brick through someones windows then you might want to consider that there are people around, and I am one of them that have the same emotions when they see the effects on pedestrians, people with reduced mobility, children, mothers with pushchairs etc by selfish inconsiderate people who also claim that "they didnt know" or that "they had no choice"

And sometimes these people pass to the act.

 

For every action in life there are conséquences, I chose once on the spur of the moment to discharge my watering can through the gap at the top of the window of a car that once again had parked across my driveway, no doubt he had no choice, he was probably on a small errand, I made my choice and now have a vandalised car, I accept the conséquences for my action.

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Presumably since it's your local town, you knew about the festival?

I don't really understand about the number of tourists trebling the population and the rest of your comments about how mean it is to give out parking tickets during the festival - I would understand if the festival had started, but this was the day before, why has everybody come to watch them set the festival up? but that's by the by.

An agent verbalisateur is a person who is authorised to issue the contravention, probably but not necessarily the police municipale. If as you say there were 20 cars parked on the pavement all down the street it wouldn't be entirely surprising if members of the public had been ringing the mayor complaining and asking for something to be done about it.

Many streets have signs with pictograms that tell you the parking restrictions, I presume this one does not.

I'm also having trouble with the notion of a town that puts on a festival and forgets to organise parking, usually they're very good about this. Is there really no out-of-town parking in a farmer's field or somewhere?

As regards the wrong street name, well that would be your word against theirs, but the fact is that you were parked on a pavement, albeit a different one.

Yes it's annoying if you want to do something on a particular day and you can't because the shop is shut or there's nowhere to park, but it happens, sometimes France doesn't organise itself to suit your plans and you have to be a bit flexible. Simmer down, try to see it more objectively, accept that you were a bit naughty, were unlucky and got copped, pay up and chalk it down to experience.
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So you got fined for parking on the pavement, and also had the onerous task of walking 15 minutes into town?

As someone who walks 40 minutes into town and on the way frequently has to navigate around cars parked on the pavement, I say "Well done!" to the ASVP of Aurillac.

Pay up and learn the lesson: pavements are for pedestrians and not for lazy car drivers.
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You might think yourself fortunate because as well as the offence of inconsiderate parking there is one of dangerous parking and that carries a loss of 3 points as well as a fine, you have checked that on the Avis I suppose ?

I don't see it matters how many pedestrians there were or were not if just one was inconvenienced and forced to walk in the street that is enough.

I do find it odd that it's not an offence for which the fine is reduced to €90 if paid within 15 days, it's minor when compared to 4th class offences all of which bar one do qualify for the reduction.

http://www.french-property.com/guides/france/driving-in-france/driving-offences/

You need to calm down, cough up, and learn from the error - and hope that Agent verbalisateur No. 00441410 isn't reading this !

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I would have expected that after more than four years living in France that the OP might have picked up the knack of looking up words he doesn't know in a dictionary, if he owns one, which is also an excellent way of expanding one's vocabulary.

If not, on line translation is possible e.g. via Google Translate, which provides the translation for Agent verbalisateur as "Reporting Officer". Not that the term really requires a vast knowledge of the language to enable a fairly accurate guess [:D]

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In reply to Chancer,

OK, so you've made a point that I totally agree would be justified in normal circumstances. I parked on the pavement, caused a potential nuisance now need to pay the fine. My "glib" comment was just that, trying to grag some humour out of adversty! I'm not actually going to throw a brick through anyone's window, or pour water through someone's car window, which you did and which resulted in someone else retaliating in kind. I am angry about the situation but not stupid enough to carry out any sort of retaliation.

I actually have a mobility problem but am not yet so unwell that I am entitled to disability or a disability badge but had no choice other than to park where I did. Actually, I did have a choice . . . I could have parked on the pavements even further away! My errand was a long-standing appointment with a neurologist in town and the 15 minute walk was very difficult. To go back home would have meant re-scheduling the appointment which would have meant a long delay.

I say these were not normal circumstances and you can preach all you want about the problems caused by people parking on the pavement. You, nor those who have commented so far on this post, are likely to understand how difficult the festival, and the way the council handle it, makes life for the locals. "So what?" I hear you say "Big deal!" But, without you knowing the background your response becomes useless. So read on if you wish or not.

The festival, for all its merits, causes huge problems and is now too big for the council to cope with. All the main parking areas within the centre and outside the centre are used for the exhibitioners to park their vehicles. All the side streets, the streets around the centre to a distance of about a kilometre are taped off or have huge concrete blocks with metal bars connecting them actually PLACED ON THE PAVEMENT to stop people parking on them. And the irony, if you can see it, is that not even pedestrians can use these pavements. The council in many parts of the town are guilty of blocking off the pavements to "pedestrians, people with reduced mobility, children, mothers with pushchairs etc". If you have limitations it's impossible to get around. Yet they fine people who park in places and in ways they normally wouldn't do but offer no alternative parking anywhere within a kilometre or more. Not easy for motorists with reduced mobility or those with pushchairs and children, never mind pedestrians?

Do you really think that some jobsworth, who will already be fully aware of the chaos and disruption the festival causes to pedestrians and motorists alike , should find it useful to tour the town with a pad reporting traffic violations? Whoever he was, he couldn't manage to get the location right in my case. What about the streets and pavements where pedestrian access was impossible thanks to hundreds of concrete blocks and barriers that were in place? I'm pretty sure nobody reported any concrete blocks for causing a traffic violation or nuisance to pedestrians.

OK, my beef is with the way the council handle the event. The festival is great in many ways but it can make life difficult for many people. People still need access to the town for all sorts of reasons, by car and on foot. I would have thought easing off on handing out parking tickets for a few days during the festival would have been the wisest thing to do, especially as no alternatives were offered?

A lot of people, no doubt normal considerate people who would never willingly park illegally, will have been fined but will have found it very difficult to access the town without breaking some sort of rule.

For those who think I'm habitually inconsiderate and a "lazy car driver" as ventodue seems to think I am, and therefore deserve the fine, I wonder what you'd have done in this particular, one-off situation? It's OK to say "learn the lesson and pay up" which I agree would be fair comment if breaking laws is the sort of thing I'd do willy-nilly, but a bit meaningless otherwise. I'd have thought that if any lessons need to have been learned, perhaps some of them should have been learned by the council.
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I would write to your local paper. Seriously, I would, and they'd probably publish it because it sounds like just the kind of topic and 'injustice' that local newspapers love to get their teeth into. It might not get you off your ticket but it should get things moving in a constructive way.

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In reply to Nomoss

Thanks for your comment, your'e clearly very witty.

I did find the term "reporting officer" before I asked the question. But that gave me no more of an idea about what a reporting officer was. The question could just have easily been "What, or who, is a Reporting Officer? A policeman? A member of the public?. Do you follow?

I wasn't asking for a translation of the words (I too have a dictionary and a computer you see) but a description of the postion. One person who responded to the post stated "An agent verbalisateur is a person who is authorised to issue the contravention, probably but not necessarily the police municipale". Informative but still not very concise if anyone really wanted to know about the post.

Can you actually tell me, without enabling a fairly accurate guess, as you put it, exactly what, on the Avis de Contravention a Reporting Officer refers to or what he does?

Perhaps someone on the forum will know exactly, which is why I asked, perhaps not. I'll sleep tonight either way. However, despite your clever comment you don't seem to know either. See, your wit doesn't make you any wiser. Never mind, you can obviously translate French words directly into English words and probably visa-versa albeit using dictionaries and Google Translations, which is an amazing feat but one that more people than you may realise can also do.

Perhaps if you really want to test your abilities you could find out more about Reporting Officers and get back to me with some useful information. I won't be holding my breath.
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I made my comments because your post showed a strange attitude to authority, which you seemed to believe shouldn't apply to you.

If you got a parking ticket in the UK, and it said it was issued by a parking attendant, would you perhaps have a faint inkling what that meant, or would you need full details of his/her qualifications, status, name, address, and CV?

You seem to feel that young people "probably students" wearing hi-vis vests don't have/shouldn't have any authority, especially regarding where or when you park.

You made an unpleasant threatening post and now you're trying to make out it was a joke.

And I don't need to test my abilities by explaining simple concepts to you [:D]

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I am going to look into "agent verbalisateur" because I want to be one, my community needs me [:D], when i find out the détails I will let you know.

I am getting excited at the thought of being a jobsworth with some authority, alone and unaided I could raise enough money in my commune for everyone to pay zero taxe d'habitation.

Until last year I suffered 10 years of selfish people parking on the pavement outside my front door making pedestrians walk in the road and myself often having to get out via a window all because they would not walk 100 meters to their own car park where they have allocated spaces, barrier entry and exit and which was always half empty, we won the battle with the urbanisation of the road last year, I won a subsequent battle with the Mairie regarding the dangerous and illegal positioning of the new parking spaces in the road but the war is not over.

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To Nomoss,

Now you're not making any sense at all and picking bits out of my original post that you think add something to your original comment, which they don't. No matter how you try to defend your reasoning by doing this, you're not doing yourself any favours.

Where do you get the idea that I questioned the authority of the students? Or the fact that they were young? Read my second post on this topic, maybe you'll think slightly differently about the first one, probably not though.

The basic point is that you offered nothing to the post and were rude for the sake of it, probably thinking you were amusing. Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, don't they say.

And, as I have already said, you have not explained any concepts at all, simple or otherwise. You just showed us that you can translate the Englsih language to French using particular sources and seem to think that you can do that better than I can, and presumably anyone else.

Say something useful or say nothing at all.
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To Chancer,

Your situation over the past 10 years is in no way similar to the one-off situation I found myself in. In your position I would have been just as unhappy and angry. You had 10 years of unselfish people willingly disrupting your life, I did something I had little choice about and am not an inconsiderate person. You're painting everyone with the same brush.

We do need jobsworths to keep us on track at times, but not jobsworths who wear blinkers and always only see one side of an equation. That's what creates the stereotype.
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To answer your question "should I contest it" the only grounds that you have is that you deny the offence, that you were not parked in road XYZ but in road ABC where the PV was attached to your vehicle, you will need photographic evidence but frankly Frank the best that you can look forward to  is that they re-issue the PV with the correct détails.

 

Here in France you are guilty until you succeed in proving yourself innocent, which I doubt that you will, you have to pay the fine before you can contest it, otherwise your reclamation is not admissible.

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Thanks,

Actually, nothing was ever attached to the vehicle and we weren't aware we'd caused a problem until we checked our post two days ago. To contest the fact that the location was wrong (how can they get the location wrong?) will probably, as you say, do nothing more than delay the fact that we have to pay the fine eventually, so I don't think we'll bother giving ourselves more agro. It's just frustrating for the reasons I've stated earlier that we (and others) even found ourselves in this position and now we all have to cough up. Oh well, where's the cheque book?
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Un PV électronique then done with a digital camera, they are supposed to place a little green ticket on the windscreen saying "une infraction à la réglementation de stationnement a été relevé à votre encontre" blah blah blah saying that you will recieve a PV in the post, when the G men got fed up with me and refused to issue any more tickets I scanned one of them and starting doing my own enforcement, thats why it would be good to be an official agent.

I get the impression that whilst its probably a legitimate   defence that the PV was incorrectly served it would be frowned on and probably cost you a whole lot more.

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I may not make any sense, but at least I'm smart enough not to park where I'm almost sure to be fined[:D]

I am able to walk only quite slowly, with a stick, and often find it

difficult to get by cars parked on the pavement, so I don't do so

myself, even if not likely to collect a fine if I did.

If I can't park close enough to my destination I ask my wife to drop me off and then park the car.

If that isn't possible I bite the bullet and slowly walk whatever distance is necessary.

My neurologist said walking is good for my legs anyway[:(]

In your OP you said

"on the form it states the term "Agent verbalisateur No. 00441410".

Would this be refering to the person who actually reported the car as

being illegally parked? What, or who, is an Agent verbalisateur? A

policeman? A member of the public? One of those students?"

Which certainly gave me the impression that you had no idea what it meant.

I don't often need to use dictionaries for translation, but in this case I checked Google Translate just to see if their result was something reasonable, rather than nonsense, as I have been away from the UK too long to be aware of the current terms there for some concepts I understand in French.

I don't believe there is a French job title "Agent verbalisateur" or "Reporting Officer".

Maybe you can understand the term better if it is translated as "Official making the report"

If you feel so strongly about it, instead of arguing with me, why not write a nice letter to the Mayor, explaining the circumstances, and asking if he will consider waiving the fine?

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We can discuss this matter all day long and I would have been happy to do so with you from the outset.

But your original post did one thing and one thing only. You simply insulted my intelligence. This is what you said, remember . . .

"I would have expected that after more than four years living in France that the OP might have picked up the knack of looking up words he doesn't know in a dictionary, if he owns one, which is also an excellent way of expanding one's vocabulary"

You mentioned absolutely nothing about the topic I posted. It was a pointless and hurtful comment.

Nothing you have said since absolves you from the fact that you were rude. You may be smart enough not to park illegally, but not smart enough to know when you are being rude.

I am not arguing with you either, just pointing out to you that you shouldn't insult strangers at the drop of a hat and not expect them to respond or to be hurt..
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Well, I still think that after over 4 years you should be capable of understanding a few common French words without having to ask for explanations on a forum.. Hence my reply, which I wouldn't classify as "rude", just sarcastic - I think it's currently referred to as "banter" in the UK.

All I suggested was that looking up the meaning of words before asking someone else, which you didn't seem to have done, would be a good idea. How is that rude?

You don't seem to have experienced "rude" yet, as this is a moderated forum.

From your initial comments hinting at throwing bricks through peoples' windows because they had the cheek to give you a parking ticket, I didn't realise you are such a delicate character.

You didn't come across as having any delicacy whatsoever.

You came across as a moaning Brit who can't accept that people in other countries might have different ideas from yours, and that you should get different treatment from the local peasantry.[:D]

Especially the bit about the wrong street being mentioned on the ticket being grounds to contest it. Good luck with that one!

I will try to be more careful about hurting you in the future[:D]

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Well, I and my family went to the 2015 Street Theatre festival in Aurillac, and I can thoroughly recommend it - and in particular the well-managed parking arrangements.

There are three or four well signposted large free car parks outside the town, with free and frequent shuttle buses to take festival-goers into the town centre. It would be absolutely impossible to run the festival with free-for-all parking in the town centre. The roads are all in use by the many performers, and it's such a pleasure to be able to walk about without having to worry about traffic. There isn't any.

What I don't know is whether the shuttles operate after the streets have been closed but before the festival proper starts. If they don't then perhaps it's a bit rough imposing a €135 fine.

But anyone who wants to see some amazing and eclectic street performers should really consider coming to Aurillac for the Éclat. Next year, of course. You won't have any problem parking your car.

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To Nomoss,

You're still doing it though! Still not smart enough to know when you're being rude. First, you suggested I wasn't clever enough to look up words in a dictionary, and stated that on a public forum, and are now covering yourself by calling your insults banter, which I suppose is meant to justify the insult. Pretty desperate.

And, ONCE MORE, I did not ask for a translation of the two words, I asked if people on the forum knew what the position of Agent Verbaliseur (or "Reporting Officer") actually entailed. Has that not sunk in yet? It had nothing to do with dictionaries.

Now, without having ever met me, you assume I'm a delicate character, whatever that means. Is that an insult too?

And you call me a moaning Brit who can't accept that people in other countries might have different ideas from mine and that I consider myself deserving of better treatment than the local peasantry. More insults. What, do you have some sort of disorder that stops you from knowing when you're insulting people?

You say that I don't seem to have experienced rude yet. I presume that means you think you're capable of being ruder and the only thing that stops you is the fact that this forum is moderated? Well, how proud you must be.

You're making a lot of assumptions, and criticisms that are actually nothing like accurate, about someone you've never seen or met.

For Christ's sake give up trying to justify your own failings. I didn't post on this forum to insult you, so be kind enough to stop doing that to me. I wouldn't imagine you would do the same if we were physically in the same place, but you seem to find it easy to do on a forum. Besides the fact that this conversation is getting absurd and personal, I won't be replying to any further posts you send as you seem to enjoy the conflict while offering nothing of any use. Please yourself!
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To those who criticise the OP for parking on the pavement in a street where everyone else was parked on the pavement:

I personally believe that everyone should park on the road and that pavements should be left for pedestrians. Unfortunately, the real world does not always go along with my beliefs. There is sometimes a "culture" of parking half on pavements and the OP parked in an area where others had done this and he joined in.

In my town in England I have been abused for parking on the road where others were on the pavement.

In my village in France you would be looked at with incredulity if you parked in the road. Everyone parks fully on the pavement and everyone walks on the road!

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Come on Frank, aren't you insulting our intelligence in the first place? I'm sure we've been there (not Aurillac necessarily) but been caught out, in the wrong, and feeling prickly afterwards and hoping to wriggle out of it.
You have to accept the result, pay up, this is France, not UK or USA where litigious arguments are the norm.
The best reply you have received, and most helpful, is to contact the Mayor and explain what's happened. Don't hold your breath though. Second best suggestion is not to park on the pavement. Try that one in the UK and you'll likely get key marks down the side of your vehicle. Third best, get someone to drop you near your appointment.
Simple isn't it, with hindsight?

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