Room Layout

[KathyC]

We have a house on the edge of a small town and on the ground floor there is a salon/sejour of about 25 sq m.which goes from the front to the back of the house (divided by a large arch) and a kitchen about 3 m by 4m. There was an arriere cuisine at the back of the house in which we have had a basin and loo installed as we are of the age where a loo on both floors seems like a good idea!  We are in the process of bringing the house up to date and are about to arrange to have it rewired.

Last night I had the brilliant idea (or as my husband would put it "another crackpot scheme") of moving the kitchen into the rear part of the through room and changing the kitchen into a downstairs bedroom or study, with the loo leading off it. As the whole house is being rewired I thought that there would be no additional costs for the electrical work involved and the water supply is close to the large room, with the pipe work underneath in the cave. We would eventually hope to put dividing doors between the living area and the dining kitchen.

Obviously this is an area MOH and I need to argue out, but I wondered if anyone would have any opinions on how French buyers would be likely to view this layout? All the UK property programmes are mad on this type of arrangement at the moment but I'm not sure what the French would think. We're doing up the house to live in ourselves rather than for investment, but you never know how things might work out. I would hate to make the house unsaleable or to knock thousands off the price. By the way, upstairs there are two bedrooms and a bathroom as well as a convertible grenier (to be left alone by us). I'd be grateful for anybody's imput on this.

[Kitty]

I am a chartered surveyor so often am faced with helping clients about property dilemmas.

You have to balance (a) your enjoyment of living in your house 

against

(b) maintaining its investment value.

Which of these has the stronger calling for you will depend on your personality.

In order to maintain a house's investement value, you have to ensure that it attracts a wide range of purchasers - for example, a family house should always have a bath in it as it is difficult to put a baby in a shower.

Most of the potential purchasers in France are likely to be French (!) and so you should try to resist doing something that excludes the French.  However, French and British tastes are converging (although not in remote parts of rural France) and of course tastes change with time.

The French do like informal catering for large numbers of people and so, if possible, your kitchen should be as large as possible. They also still like to separate a lot of kitchen functions from the kitchen food area, hence arriere cuisines.

But you are the one that wants to enjoy living in your house and therefore if a smaller kitchen is what you want, go for it.  A study is becoming more important for home working and so creating one is a good idea for the future.

[KathyC]

Hi Cathy

You've summed up my dilemma very well, particularly regarding appealing to French buyers. I think we're unusual amongst the British in buying a house in a small town, but we've done the country thing in the UK. I should explain that I wouldn't be making a smaller kitchen. The back part of my through room would be over 14 sq metres and would lend itself to having a central table and also being capable of opening onto the front living area. The current kitchen is rather long and thin with four doors leading off it so would only be suitable as a galley kitchen with a small table on the opposite wall. The arriere kitchen would have become a utility room if we hadn't put a loo in it; I couldn't have coped with a kitchen having the sink in a separate room.

By the way, if we leave the layout as it is, are there any rules about having a loo coming straight off a kitchen? I know it's not to everyone's taste but it was a necessity for us. Of course, if we move the kitchen the loo won't be coming straight off it! Thanks for taking the trouble to reply and I apologise for the additional question.

Kathy

[Kitty]

Your idea of creating a larger kitchen sounds as if it is wise.  Galley kitchens are not popular in France or the UK.  Casual dining (entertaining guests in the kitchen) is a feature of most West European countries now - hence the rise of 'chunky' china such as Portmeiron and the fall of fine china.

In the UK, a loo cannot come straight off a food area (dining or cooking) and there has to be a lobby between the two rooms (a building regulation).  I would assume that this must be the same in France.

Losing an arriere cuisine is not the end of the world.  I mentioned in my earlier posting that British and French tastes are converging and this is one of them.

[londoneye]

I cannot guarantee this, but i believe you are correct in your assumption ref bathroom and kitchen regs being same here as UK, because our architect has drawn a lobby area for the bathroom which comes from our kitchen downstairs, but not upstairs. 

[Chancer]

I didn't make any assumptions and am currently building the first apartment with an open plan kitchen/lounge leading to the bathroom/toilet without a seperate lobby.

In fact when I first drew the plans (fag packet sketch) including the lobby, all my French friends (some more professional and educated than others) said "what is that silly little room, what a waste of space!"

No architect, no building control - ni vu, ni connu!

Still it would be nice to know if sometime in the future it will have to be knocked down and rebuilt!

[Jc]

Our Bathroom in France opens straight off the Kitchen(1988 build) and I think the British regs. have been changed to allow it-subject to certain conditions being complied with.

[KathyC]

JC, I'm sure you're right about the UK; it changed a few years ago.

[Nick Trollope]

[quote user="Jc"]Our Bathroom in France opens straight off the Kitchen(1988 build) and I think the British regs. have been changed to allow it-subject to certain conditions being complied with.[/quote]

This is my understanding too (and my experience). It certainly is permitted for a loo to open directly onto a kitchen (it must have a WHB, but this is always the case), in France. I am sure this is the case in the UK, too. Can Cathy the particular bit of the UK building regs? I can't find it, but I'm not an Architect!

 

[KathyC]

I found this on another site - Approved Document to Part G (para 1.2) "A space containing a closet should be separated by a door from a space used for the preparation of food (including a space in which washing up is done).

From a personal point of view I'm not too bothered whether I've done something wrong by putting in a loo leading off our kitchen ( it was a necessity for us and we could always take it out again if we wanted to sell) I'm more concerned as to whether moving the kitchen would make the house difficult to sell in the future as the wiring and plumbing alterations needed would make it difficult to it move back.

[Patf]

We have been looking at houses in France recently and noticed it's very common to have a downstairs bedroom and toilet or shower room. If Granny or Grandad come to live with the family, as they often seem to do here, this suits them fine. Pat.

[Kitty]

The relevant regulation in the UK is:

 

Building Regulations 2000 Part G concerns Hygiene

 

G1       (1) Adequate sanitary conveniences shall be provided in rooms for that purpose, or in bathrooms.  Any such room or bathroom shall be separated from places where food is prepared.

 

(2) adequate wash hand basins shall be provided in:

 

(a)   rooms containing water closets or

(b)   rooms or spaces adjacent to rooms containing water closets

 

Any such room or space shall be separated from places where food is prepared

 

 I was not aware that this regulation had been superceded and if so, would like chapter & verse so that I can tell clients.

 

Regardless of the regulation, who wants to have a loo going directly off a kitchen or dining room? Yuk!  I don't want to hear (or worse, smell) what's going on in the "smallest room" when I am eating my spaghetti bolognaise!

 

 

 

 

[KathyC]

Cathy

Are you saying that these are the new or the old regulations? They don't say anything about 2 doors or a lobby being required between a kitchen/dining room and a loo. Several websites say "The Building Regulations requirement that there should be a ventilated lobby between a kitchen and a bathroom has now been revoked. However, if possible, it is good building practice to provide a lobby." However, others don't seem to have caught up.

Seeing several of us have already said that we have this arrangement (either in the UK or France), your last sentence seems unneccessarily personal, but thanks for taking the time to answe my question.

Kathy

[Just Katie]

I have been under the impression for some years now that this building regulation is no longer used and, when I have been undertaking inspection of property it is not a requirement of lenders that we disclose whether a lobby is present. 

KathyC  your scheme sounds very sensible to me.  Really, what you will end up with is a further bedroom with ensuite off the kitchen/diner.  It does seem much neater than the mish mash of rooms there previously.

However, do you have annual forms for your property tax in france? And would your tax increase with an extra bedroom?  I do not live in France so perhaps somebody who knows could advise you here (if you don't know already).  If it were the case, with the risk of ruffling some feathers, perhaps you could call it a study with a bed in.[:)][;-)].

Finally, as I read it, I could not see where Cathy was unneccessarily personal to you.  She made a comment about the current style of your house which you want to change anyway and has agreed with you that it will work.

 

[Kitty]

Oh dear.  Thanks Katie for coming to my defence!  I wasn't meaning to be personal, KathyC, at all at all at all!  I did live in a house once that had a loo directly off the kitchen (a student's doss house) and I hated it - I shared it with six blokes so you can imagine why.  I was just remembering those days.  Spaghetti bolognaise was the only thing that we cooked.

[KathyC]

Cathy

Sorry, I must have been feeling a bit Monday morningish and took it the wrong way. Thanks for your help.

Kathy

[Just Katie]

[quote user="nicktrollope"]

[quote user="Jc"]Our Bathroom in France opens straight off the Kitchen(1988 build) and I think the British regs. have been changed to allow it-subject to certain conditions being complied with.[/quote]

This is my understanding too (and my experience). It certainly is permitted for a loo to open directly onto a kitchen (it must have a WHB, but this is always the case), in France. I am sure this is the case in the UK, too. Can Cathy the particular bit of the UK building regs? I can't find it, but I'm not an Architect!

 

[/quote]

Hi Nick,

I have asked my husband about this and he is bang up do date with building regs.  He told be that this regulation was dropped some years ago when mechanical ventilation came in.  Sorry I cannot be more specific.

[KathyC]

Thanks to everyone who offered an opinion; at least nobody thinks I'm as mad as a hatter, which seems to be my husband's take on things. (But then he knows me better!) I feel geared up for battle now but will have to wait until we're in France again in September to see how viable my plans are.