joidevie Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Hello.. I have a small dilema:I'm currently considering buying a large Southern French village house. It's a 3 storey end of terrace around 15m wide and around 7m deep on the upper two floors and 15m deep on the ground floor (ie the upper floors 'stick up' from the lower..)The roof looks like it's been repaired a few times, and there a 3 large steel tie bars (the 'X' shape) accross the front of the facade on the upper level. They are old and not recent additions. The render is falling off here and there.. And looks scary, but I have the feeling that if it's all chipped off, the stone wall underneath will look sound, although optically, the roof line (ie where the tiles meet the top of the wall). seems to 'wave' very slightly..My question is really whether to dismiss the house entirely or to be more philosophical and see the bars as an engineering asset rather than something to shy away from irrationally? Will the bars have been put in as part of the building or will thay have been put in the 'remedy' an ongoing problem? Will tie bars put off future buyers? They seem fairly common... And the house merits consideration..Many thanks for any advice or thoughts.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Tie bars are a very common phenomenon and if they are in reasonable condition and doing their job then I would not consider them reason alone to dismiss a property. It's impossible to say when they may have been installed but I would reckon it to have been relatively early on in the properties history. Scabby render is endemic and is not necessarily an indication of anything worse than shoddy application and poor adhesion.If you are enamoured of the house then the obvious solution is to have a professional survey carried out which will serve the dual purposes of learning what problems lurk and provide ammunition for price negotiation - if you're not completely scared off that is [;-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Good advice, Erns. You need the property to be surveyed by either a structural engineer or a building surveyor (that is, a surveyor with specialised knowledge of structures, loadings, etc).Look at the ridge line of the roof: is there hogging or deflection ("wavy" like you said)? Also look at the doors and windows, do they shut and open easily or are they difficult to use? Distortion of doors and window frames is commonly due to settlement of the building.If it is an end of terrace, what kind of site is it? If it is a sloping site and the house is at the bottom end of the slope with the rest of the terrace "leaning" on it? If so, then the chances of settlement and movement are increased.Proceed with caution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joidevie Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 Many thanks for the observations..The house is certainly worth the attention. It is on the edge of a typical 'circular' old village facing SW (so gets the heat & elements). Below the rear (ie. where the facade with the problems) is the outer 'ring road' if you can call it that, but more of an access road. It is positioned on a slope along with the other houses on the terrace.. In front of the rear (main) facade is a garage with a garden on top of it..So, definitely an 'interesting' position, but certainly not uncommon in the region.On viewing, the rooms to the questionable facade side do have noticable cracking to all the walls facing outwards.. In keeping with the new lowered asking price. However, my concern is whether to invest and do the work properly (40-60k I'm expecting) and get a rare and great house, or be left with something with continuing issues..A tough call I know, and caution is my middle name!Thanks for any further insights.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Are you able to take some photos of the perceived problems and post them here?A close up of the cracks would be useful. It may be that the cracks are of longstanding and you might be able to contain the movement.Did you notice what sort of ground the building is on? For example, clay soil tends to act a bit like a sponge, soaking up a lot of moisture and then, in a period of prolonged drought (as we are having at the moment), the ground can shrink and that could also lead to movement and settlement problems.If you really love the house, then be prepared to pay for a detailed report from a suitably qualified and knowledgeable person and, that way, even if problems are highlighted, you'd at least know what to expect as nasty surprises could make for a lot heartache later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joidevie Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 Many thanks for all the suggestions..On a third viewing, it does look like one for the structural engineer... Quite a noticable 'slope' the the main building.. Perhaps a bit far gone.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Don't entirely give up on it until you've had the report!If the problem is a longstanding one and, it hasn't got worse in recent times, it may be that the movement can be "contained" even if it cannot be corrected.If containment measures are suitable for the building and do not make the house uneconomical, you might accept the defects as providing "character".Look again at the cracks and, if the heads of windows and doors are affected (that is the cracks are visible on lintels and so on) then I would suggest that the movement is severe and the structural condition of the building is suspect.Has it been on the market long? There could be more reason than simply the recession to account for its languishing there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 There is a street in a town near me where every house looks like it is about to fall over, whole terraces have already been knocked down and rebuilt with modern dwellings.There is one house on the corner of a side street that has a 45 degree angled facade intersecting the two streets and a very pleasing hipped roof aspect, the trouble is it looks like something out of a circus hall of mirrors it is leaning so badly in not one but two directions, you can see where the masons have been at it over the years and have let in tapered darts of brickwork in some places, the menuiserie is also a sight to behold.It looks like there used to be a side branch of the Somme canal behind this street which had either fallen into disuse or been drained, I guess that this had affected the neighbouring houses. Where the canal branch was originally (I found it on some old maps) a completely new street of fairly modern houses has been built, too modern in fact and I reckon that the initial ones built just after WW1 had to be demolished but the effects are visible on the adjoining street.I mention this because I am sure the first posting mentioned something about a street below, perhaps it is a phenomenon well known locally? try asking at the Mairie or local bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Yes, one thing I forgot to say was: look at the neighbouring properties and see if they have similar problems and, if so, how have the problems been resolved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Zoff Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 When I put a similar question to a (UK) surveyor regarding an old, tie-barred house, his main concern was whether there had been any recent movement in the structure. If not, there is unlikely to be too much of a problem as it has probably moved all that it is going to and/or the remedial action has done its job. If, however, it is still showing signs of movement, then beware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG MAC Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Firstly are you sure they are passing all the way through?Is there noticable 'Dishing' to the masonry round the escutcheons or flanges?Are the bars set at chamber joist level and running alongside them internally, if so are they taught or do they sag?Have you used a plumb line to determine angle of lean, many buidings start life leaning in (Thick at the bottom thin going up) Is there any sign of sheared stone or failed lintels?Do the floors slope internally?Are the stairs out of alignment?do the roof ridges deviate greatly?Are gutters badly out of alignment or have back falls?Is the ground around the building exhibiting signs of movement, cracking?Look in the loft is there any obviously more recent timber disguising out of alignment roof? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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