7 Day letters and compromis de vente timescale of validity?

[painterman]

[:(]Hi, I tried to do this post yesterday but somehow it didn't work. So here goes again.

Could I please ask if anyone knows the answer to my two questions please. These are:

1) Does the 7 day letter that you sign and return to the estate agent agent have a valid time limit, eg is it valid for six months... or indefinite.

2) Does a signed by both parties compromis de vente have a valid time limit, eg again maybe 6 months?

It is just something that the architect we are using mentioned whilst we were over in France last time to try and sort out our house purchase. We are buying in 'cash' so to speak (through the banking system actually but not with a mortgage) without the need for a mortgage as we've already sold our UK home and are in rented accommodation now. Unfortunately as we were discussing the 'finer' points of having a septic tank installed my wife and I didn't remember to ask more of the architect about his comment that a compromis de vente had a timescale. We were supposed to complete Dec 2005 as this was the date that the estate agent said and wrote (he told us what the words in French meant from the compromis de vente) regarding the Dec 2005 date.We originally saw the house at the end of July last year and put in our offer, which was accepted by the vendor, and to cut a long 'story' short the compromis de V was signed and we returned to the UK. A 7 day letter was received by us in August 2005 which we signed and returned. Eventually because the purchase still had not been completed by Jan 2006, the estate agent sent us another 7 day letter saying that "the date was incorrect" on the last one, and so could we please sign this one and return it- which we did. However, we wonder, after the architect's brief comment if there is a validity date of these two documents if completion has not taken place within a certain timescale.

Does anyone please know the answer. Our saga has been ongoing for ten months now and if it wasn't for the fact that we'd probably lose our deposit, still have to pay estate agent fees and probably some sort of penalties that seem to be in the small print if we pull out, we would pull out of the transaction, but likewise if the vendor pulled out and put the house back  on the market he would surely have to pay us our deposit back because the clause suspensives have still not yet been met- we are trying our best to get them met by risking more of our money by using an architect to help with the septic tank and our notaire is doing all that can be done too. Things are in the hands of the planning department and the three months is almost at an end. BUT I wonder if we don't get the positive CU we need for the house which is unhabitable at the moment or positive approval to have a septic tank are we going to be able to get our deposit back if all this is not sorted out within say the last six months of us signing the second 7 day letter. Originally the estate agent had been dishonest and told us that he had put in the permission for the septic tank and the CU change of use for the  attached barn but he finally admitted in March 2006 that he hadn't. It has left us more than worried. The vendor and his family do seem like nice people but I believe we have all been had by the estate agent in one way or the other. I'm sorry this is so long, but if anyone can shed any light on my two questions before I go back to hassling our notaire, your help would be very much appreciated, and so I will thank you in advance.

 

[hastobe]

Did you have your compromis translated?  Its difficult to know

exactly what your position is without knowing the terms of your

contract. There isn't a standard 'off the shelf' compromis so you

really need to know exactly what your contract says. 

Having said that, it sounds like you have a clause suspensive in your

compromis - is this in respect of the planning  permissions? 

If so then there is usually a time limit by which this condition must

be met (otherwise the parties could be 'bound' to the contract

forever).  It seem as though this is the date that the agent

stated was 'incorrect'.  It is one thing for both parties to agree

to extend the date - it is quite another to 'correct' a date several

months after signing the original contract (and at a time when both

parties could walk away).  Have you kept a copy of the original

compromis and subsequent correspondence / 'corrections'?  It could

be that ignorance is no defence and that the new compromis novates the

old one so that you are now bound by the new agreement.  I have to

say I was suprised that the notaire didn't draft the compromis. 

Just as a matter of interest who is holding the deposit?  It all

sounds a little shady to me. 

Maybe a second pair of eyes from another notaire would be in order -

and a formal translation of the documents into English so you know what

the clauses are. 

Kathie

 

[Sunday Driver]

1) The seven day letter has a time limit of seven days - it's the cooling off period during which you can withdraw from the contract without penalty.  Once the seven days has passed, you are committed to the purchase (subject to the specified conditions being fulfilled). The second letter sent to you by the estate agent would appear to have no validity whatsoever.

2) The compromis will normally state that acte de vente will be established on the XXXX date providing that all the necessary documentation to perfect the acte has been received.  The penal clause sets out the amount to be paid in the case of either party refusing to sign the acte by the date specified, but makes an exception in the case of of unfilfilled clause suspensives.  So, to summarise the situation - the compromis remains valid until such time as the conditions are met (and the sale goes ahead) or are not capable of being met, in which case, the contract cannot be enforced and you are entitled to the return of your deposit.

 

[hastobe]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

 The second letter sent to you by the estate agent would appear to have no validity whatsoever.

[/quote]

That was my thought - but I wasn't sure what this second letter was -

was it a covering letter for a new re-dated compromis, was it a

covering letter enclosing the original compromis with the date changed

(if so were you asked to initial and date the revisions) or was it

simply a letter you were asked to sign?   If it was a new

compromis did it include new termite / asbestos reports for example?

Kathie

[Nick Trollope]

As I understand it, signing and returning the 7-day letter states that you do not wish to proceed. You are assumed to have agreed to proceed with the purchase if you do not return the letter. There may, of course, be 2 types of letters. I have never seen the returnable sort!

[Sunday Driver]

No doubt the mystery will be revealed in due course.....[;-)]

[Sunday Driver]

Kathy

If you check your own thread about penalty clauses, you'll see that Painterman has got the conditions in his original compromis.  The delay was caused by the estate agent who had promised to submit the approval applications and didn't.

[painterman]

Hi, and thank you to all who replied.

The situation is this, we were sent the first 7 day SRU cooling off letter in August 2005 by registered post from the estate agent with the request that we sign and return it to him within seven days of receipt. We signed it and returned it. We tried to translate it with google's language tools but at the time were not tto worried about the penalty clauses because at that point we had no intention of not completing the purchase.  Also in Aug 2005 whilst in France we signed the compromis de vente with the estate agent who wrote in the details and explained that the date of Dec 2005 was the completion date. The estate agent gave us a copy of this and we returned to UK and waited for the estate agent to send another copy of the compromis de vente to us with the vendors signature on it also because the estate agent explained that he could not obtain the vendors signature at the time whilst we were in France. This was done. The estate agent assured us in Aug 2005 that he would submit the CU change of use for the barn that we needed and submit an application for permission to install a septic tank. We offered to pay for soil tests to be done but he was adamant that this was not necessary. He would not let us write our own clause suspensives saying that they had to be written in proper French and he told us that some of the conditions that we wanted to have put in writing should be put in the acte de vente, and not in the compromis de vente.The estate agent speaks excellent English. We know now that we have clearly been lied to about this. We insisted that two clause suspensives were put in the compromis de vente as he required us to sign it without the vendor being present and this was for the CU and septic tank. We asked if we could meet the vendor and he said "no", that we would only be able to see the vendor when we complete and sign the acte de vente at the notaires office. He assured us that this was normal in France.He insisted that we pay the deposit which we did by cheque drawn on our french bank account. The deposit is being held by some legal representative of the estate agent. We had expected that all would be well but in January the estate agent sent us a second SRU 7 day cooling off letter saying that the first one had an incorrect date on it, and would we sign it and return it to him as before. Each time we contacted him he reassured us that the delays were the fault of the french legal system and that we should not worry. By January we were very worried and had already begun writing in detail to the notaire to ask for answers, and the estate agent was not giving us the information we asked for about the paperwork to prove that the applications for the CU and septic tank had been done. We contacted a forum member from here and she gave us the details of an English speaking notaire that she had dealt with and so we also began contacting him. He has been helpful and can see how dishonest the estate agent has been with us (how can we possibly prove this though- his word against ours/ long lengthy legal battle that we don't want to have to get involved with). By March 2006 the estate agent finally admitted that he hadn't put in the relevant applications- he had lied to us. The notaires we are dealing with are not happy with him and said it was a disgrace " almost scandalous". Since March our notaire has submitted the CU change of use that we need to know if the property can be used as a dwelling space, and we have employed the services of an architect to oversee the activities of the soil testers and hopefully in time the installers of the septic tank. This is more money that we have had to risk. We have insisted from the very beginning with the estate agent and the notaire that if proper planning consent for the change of use is not given we will not buy the property and hence the two clause suspensives that we actually managed to get the estate agent to write in.( Although I could have done better myself even though I say this myself because I would have put a proper time completion on the transaction and we were not allowed to do so.)

 So the estate agents fees are ten thousand euros, and the deposit we paid was eight thousand euros, but the SRU letter says at the bottom last few lines "Si, l'acquéreur exerce sa faculté de rétraction, le professionnel dépositaire des fonds les lui restitue dans un délai de vingt et un jours à compter du lendemain de la date de cette rétraction. Lorsque l'acte est dressé en la forme authentique, aucune somme ne peut être versée pendant le délai de réflexion de sept jours. Est puni de 30,490 euros d'amende le fait d'exiger ou de recevoir un versement ou un engagement de versement en méconnaissance des alinéas ci-dessus."  To me that looks as though we could end up paying 30,490 plus 10,000 and losing our 8,000 euros if we decided to pull out of the transaction. But we really want to buy this house and barn but it is proving so difficult to do so because our UK costs are mounting because of the delays and that has made us think from time to time, and today is no exception that maybe if we could pull out of the transaction we would, if the compromis de vente had a limited period of validity legally naturally in French law and if the 7day cooling off period letter also had a limited period of legality, or are these two forms  legal indefinitely.

My wife and I are grateful to those of you who have replied. If there is anything further that I have added above that has helped clarify the position we are in so that you could perhaps add a little more if you know if the forms are indefinite or limited in their legal timespan, we would be very grateful. We are doing all we can to push things forward, we even went to France and went looking for the vendor, whom we found, and he told us that the estate agent was not giving him any information and that he thought that we didn't even want the house anymore, and he was going to put it back on the market. The situation stinks. Really sorry this post is so long, but any help most gratefully recieved- we would still like to live in France. Thank you.

[Sunday Driver]

Painterman

Yours appears to be a complex situation which has been quite difficult to understand, partly because of the way you have explained things - a thirty line paragraph doesn't help the reader either....[;-)]

Let's try to cut through everything else and get to the real issue.

You have a properly signed compromis which contains the conditions you requested.  I can understand the estate agent wanting to make sure the clauses suspensives were written in proper French - for your protection more than anything. You have no complaints about this, I presume.

Your notaire has now submitted the permissions and the architect is working on your behalf.

You have met the vendor and he understands the situation and the reasons for the delay and he is happy to discover that you are not intending to pull out of the deal.

I realise you'd like to just walk away from everything, but you cannot withdraw from the proper legal contact that you have signed, without losing your deposit - unless the conditions can't be fulfilled. If they can't then you get your money back.  That's the deal.

Yes, you'll have paid out the expenses of acquiring those permissions, but that the gamble of seeking them in the first place.

You are in legal driving seat now, so why not let it run.  You're almost there!

With regard to your estate agent, if you are unhappy with his performance, why not report him to his trade body.  Is he a member of FNAIM?  Better still, why not tell him you intend to withold part of his fees to cover the expenses you have unnecessarily incurred due to his incompetence. More importantly, what would your notaire advise you do about him?

 

[hastobe]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

Kathy

If you check your own thread about penalty clauses, you'll see that Painterman has got the conditions in his original compromis.  The delay was caused by the estate agent who had promised to submit the approval applications and didn't.

[/quote]

My apologies SD / Painterman - I missed the bit about the agent applying (or saying he had applied) for the permissions.  As SD says, the vendor is being reasonable, you seem to have a good notaire involved and things are starting to happen. Fingers crossed for you that the approvals come through quickly.

Kathie

[painterman]

Thanks for your replies. I'm sorry my paragraphs were so long. Alot has happened in the ten months.

The estate agent is a nugget. He has been dishonest to us on numerour occasions about the purchase, but cleverly for him it is our word against his for most of it. He insisted on writing the clause suspensives. I could have done better myself. The second notiare we involved warned us that the estate agent, for whatever reasons (and he assumed they were questionable), had written the clause suspensives very vaguely giving us very little protection. That is not what we had asked for.

The sellers notaire is the one who is supposed to submit the CU change of use application. Due to the seven month delay, our notaire insisted on applying for us because what the sellers notaire applied for apparently wasn't worth the paper it was written (our notaires words not ours.)

If planning take the full four months to make a decision we will have to wait until the end of July. Hopefully they will reply by the end of this month and we will hopefully know where we stand.

The estate agent lodged our deposit with a legal representative and the word FNAIM is on the deposit receipt. I will write to our notaire and ask how we stand legally for witholding some of the 10,000 euro fees because of his shady practices. Neither of our notaires is happy with 'our' estate agent. I will try and find out if we can do anything about this aspect before completion, if it ever takes place at this rate.

The compromis was a standard printed thing. The estate agent didn't want us to see the notaire without him being present. He told us that he should be present for the transaction. We decided to go and see the notaire without him. This is where we finally learned most of the truth and obtained relevant French paperwork. It looks as though we will have to hang in there until we can find out if the clause suspensives can be met or not.

Thanks again for you responses, again sorry its so long. I never was any good at writing in note form.

 

[Sunday Driver]

Cheers, Painterman. 

Estate agents are regulated in France and have professional liability insurance provided through associations such as FNAIM. In order to keep trading as an estate agent, they are  obliged to abide by certain standards and any agent who fails to meet such standards should be reported to the appropriate body.

I would contact FNAIM straight away and report the goings on. You don't know if he's already been reported for unprofessional activities and your complaint might be the critical one.  Besides, if he gets closed down, then he might have to forfeit the right to the commission fee.....

Worth a punt? 

[Nick Trollope]

A deposit of 8K suggests a house price of 80K. 10K agents fees sounds rather high -especially given the obvious ineptitude of the Agent.

When you are at the signing, the Notaire will have all your money in his paw (consisting of the purchase price, his fees and the Agents fees) and he will/should ask you if you agree to the Agent being paid. I have never needed to say "no", so I don't know what the result would be, but you could try it.

Discuss it with hte Notaire first, though.

[painterman]

Hi to you all, and thank you very much for your replies, especially Sunday Driver and Nick.

We have written to our notaire to ask about how we stand for withholding at least some of the fees, so we shall see what we are told . I will post it here and let you know just in case it might help someone else too.

 We are hoping to have some news soon......[blink]