Pronouns used after croire

[bizzyliz]

In a grammar workbook that I use, I came across the line 'Croyez-vous en Dieu? Moi, j'y croyais autrefois.' It is actually in an exercise on the imperfect tense, but I am confused by the use of 'en' in the question and then 'y' in the answer. Wouldn't it be better to say 'Croyez-vous à Dieu?'

Liz

[Tourangelle]

I don't know why, but croire en Dieu is definitely correct and croire à Dieu wrong. I too find it confusing when especially as sentences like croire au père noel are correct.

[bizzyliz]

Thanks - in that case, should the reply be 'Moi, j'en croyais autrefois?' ??

Liz

[Tourangelle]

I hope somebody with more expertise is going to come along and clear this up. (Vraititi perhaps?)

Meanwhile, the two en that you are using are not the same. Croire en Dieu is the preposition, whereas if you wanted to say j'en crois then en is being used as a pronoun to replace en Dieu. I can't think of a situation in French where j'en crois is correct, but I may be wrong about that.

I think j'y crois is used because y replaces à plus noun, which brings us back to the question of why croyez-vous en Dieu and not à Dieu. I have looked this up in a dictionary of French problems which says that if you use en then you are more confident than if you use croire on its own or croire à. It gives a couple of interesting examples, such as je crois en l'homme et en l'humanité; croire en soi; ne croyez pas en lui. On the other hand, it gives the example il ne croit ni à Dieu ni à diable.

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

Yes, I must apologise profusely to you 2, I wanted to assist you earlier with your linguistic predicament as I am whiling away this most beautiful saturday afternoon on  a lawn with my laptop somewhere in the Cotswolds (don't even know where I am !) but I was busy doing smthg quite amusing really, and quite time-consuming as well, namely replying to Teamedup as a matter of urgency as (s)he thinks that I am a 'pompous artisto/academic who cannot accept that we are all different', crikey, I have no idea where (s)he gets that from but quite risible really, moi, a 'narrow-minded pompous academic/artisto', moi ! Next time we're both in town (Paris) I'll take her out for 'un passage en revue' of my fav' drinking haunts in the gritty 19eme and 20eme, Menilmuche and all that funky jazz ('et tout le bastringue'), she'll see what sort of pompous ass I am (all in jest Teamedup, don't shoot me down in flames, it's all in jest, honest !).

Yes, it is a very very difficult and fine point of grammar that you have raised here but it is definately 'croire en Dieu' (Gosh ! Haven't you got better things to do you 2 than tackle the most difficult points of French grammar on a lazy Saturday afternoon ?!!!). Tentons d'expliquer (but you owe me for that !). BTW, La Tourangelle, you're spot on really with yr explanations, but read below for another view on the matter.

'croire à' can be used in 3 distinct (but not altogether dissimilar) ways:

a) it can mean that you believe than 'something is real or possible' (consider: 'croire à une chose': 'je crois à ce qu'il m'a dit, c'est vraisemblable')

b) it can mean: to consider as probable, as imminent (in, e.g: 'je crois à la guerre', i.e: 'à la possibilité d'une guerre')

c)  it can mean: to be convinced of the existence and of the value of... (usually dogm, deity, etc.       in, e.g: 'croire à l'évangile, au messie', or even 'croire au Père Noel').

'croire en'  can be used in 2 different ways:

a) 'croire en une chose' is possible but would mean 'to give something total moral and intellectual adhesion' . Hence 'croire en Dieu': to have a religious faith. Of course, this contradicts Point c) above but consider point b) below

b) 'croire en quelqu'un' indicates that you trust someone ('believe' IN someone) and, crucially here, can also mean, by extension, that you entrust a person (real or not) with 'the responsibility to look after you'. The idea here is that you 'trust' as well as 'count on', 'rely on', whether that trust/reliance in at a superficial level, factual, religious, it matters not. 'croire en ses amis' for instance= to believe and (possibly) rely on one's friends at the same time.

So, both are technically possible. 'croire à Dieu' would mean that you believe at the existence of a God (but not necessarily at his powers, etc.). 'croire en Dieu' means that you believe in the whole package, so to speak.

Yes, you could use 'en croire' in, e.g, 'à l'en croire' (= if we believe him), a literary form, except maybe in 'si j'en crois ce qu'on me raconte' which could pass off as standard French (although most people, around a Pastis, would say: 'si je crois ce qu'on me raconte').

Pleae, not another one like that today you 2, les diaboliques.

P.S: Crikey, I've just realised, Teamedup is defo believe than I am a pompous, sad 'academico' !

 

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

Yes, I must apologise profusely to you 2, I wanted to assist you earlier with your linguistic predicament as I am whiling away this most beautiful saturday afternoon on  a lawn with my laptop somewhere in the Cotswolds (don't even know where I am !) but I was busy doing smthg quite amusing really, and quite time-consuming as well, namely replying to Teamedup as a matter of urgency as (s)he thinks that I am a 'pompous artisto/academic who cannot accept that we are all different', crikey, I have no idea where (s)he gets that from but quite risible really, moi, a 'narrow-minded pompous academic/artisto', moi ! Next time we're both in town (Paris) I'll take her out for 'un passage en revue' of my fav' drinking haunts in the gritty 19eme and 20eme, Menilmuche and all that funky jazz ('et tout le bastringue'), she'll see what sort of pompous ass I am (all in jest Teamedup, don't shoot me down in flames, it's all in jest, honest !).

Yes, it is a very very difficult and fine point of grammar that you have raised here but it is definately 'croire en Dieu' (Gosh ! Haven't you got better things to do you 2 than tackle the most difficult points of French grammar on a lazy Saturday afternoon ?!!!). Tentons d'expliquer (but you owe me for that !). BTW, La Tourangelle, you're spot on really with yr explanations, but read below for another view on the matter.

'croire à' can be used in 3 distinct (but not altogether dissimilar) ways:

a) it can mean that you believe than 'something is real or possible' (consider: 'croire à une chose': 'je crois à ce qu'il m'a dit, c'est vraisemblable')

b) it can mean: to consider as probable, as imminent (in, e.g: 'je crois à la guerre', i.e: 'à la possibilité d'une guerre')

c)  it can mean: to be convinced of the existence and of the value of... (usually dogm, deity, etc.       in, e.g: 'croire à l'évangile, au messie', or even 'croire au Père Noel').

'croire en'  can be used in 2 different ways:

a) 'croire en une chose' is possible but would mean 'to give something total moral and intellectual adhesion' . Hence 'croire en Dieu': to have a religious faith. Of course, this contradicts Point c) above but consider point b) below

b) 'croire en quelqu'un' indicates that you trust someone ('believe' IN someone) and, crucially here, can also mean, by extension, that you entrust a person (real or not) with 'the responsibility to look after you'. The idea here is that you 'trust' as well as 'count on', 'rely on', whether that trust/reliance in at a superficial level, factual, religious, it matters not. 'croire en ses amis' for instance= to believe and (possibly) rely on one's friends at the same time.

So, both are technically possible. 'croire à Dieu' would mean that you believe at the existence of a God (but not necessarily at his powers, etc.). 'croire en Dieu' means that you believe in the whole package, so to speak.

Yes, you could use 'en croire' in, e.g, 'à l'en croire' (= if we believe him), a literary form, except maybe in 'si j'en crois ce qu'on me raconte' which could pass off as standard French (although most people, around a Pastis, would say: 'si je crois ce qu'on me raconte').

Pleae, not another one like that today you 2, les diaboliques.

P.S: Crikey, I've just realised, Teamedup is defo believe than I am a pompous, sad 'academico' !

 

[bizzyliz]

So, I now have a reputation as a 'diabolique'! Profuse apologies for ruining Saturday afternoons - Saturday is always one of my busiest days, so I don't think of them as lazy times I'm afraid. But I'm extremely grateful for and impressed by the wealth of knowledge and explanations that you have come up with, Vraititi, and very appreciative of Tourangelle's responses too. I'll try not to be quite so 'diabolique' next time!

Liz

[M]

Quite straightforward really - and 3 possibilities:-

 

croire - to believe, as in 'Je vous crois!' - 'I believe you!'

croire à - to believe in (the existence of) something - 'Je crois aux fées' - 'I believe in (the existence of) fairies'.

croire en - to have faith in - 'Je crois en Dieu' - I believe in (trust in) God'.

Oh, and don't forget 'Je crois que oui' - 'I think so, yes'.

a+

Malcolm

[bizzyliz]

Thanks Malcolm. It is straightforward when you look at it like that, but what confused me was why 'en' was used as the preposition in the question and 'y' was the pronoun used in the answer. I felt that either both should be 'en' or both should be 'y'.

Liz

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

Well, it might seem 'straightforward', but I totally understand why you felt confused by the use of 'en' and 'y' here. To me, it can be a bit of a grey area, see my previous post. For good measure, I've thrown into the equation the use of negatives !

To answer yr previous Q, no, you couldn't say 'j'en croyais avant' as it refers to God, which is considered as a 'person' here, not a quantity, an abstraction or otherwise. But you could say:       'oui avant, je croyais en lui'

Compare: 'Vous y croyez ?' (do you believe in it/that ?) or

             'Vous y croiriez si je vous disais que...': would you believe it if I said to you that...

Reply: 'Oui, j'y crois' / 'Oui, j'y croirais'

You were right though in yr assumption that 'y' could be both used in the Q and A. In certain cases, you could say (in spoken French, emphatic): 'Tu y crois toi en Dieu ?'  - 'Oui, j'y crois'

But (negative):

'Vous n'y croyez pas, n'est-ce pas ?' (you don't believe in it, do you ?)

'Vous n'en croyez pas vos yeux, n'est-ce pas ? (You cannot believe your eyes, can you ?)

(It makes sense if you consider that the second example has a complément d'objet)

[bizzyliz]

It's all fascinating, Vraititi, and the examples you give make a lot more sense to me than the sentences I originally quoted. A hunt in the dictionary brought up another one which was strange to me: 'Croyez-m'en.' I thought that after the imperative 'moi' had to be used, but I didn't think that it could be contracted with the apostrophe. So is the m' short for me? Sorry, I'm probably being diabolique again.....

Liz

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

I've googled in 'croyez m'en'. Below is one result, in a lovely poem, there are a few more results.

AUBAINE

par Antoine Tabard

Du gris cendre allumé
D'à peine une aube vaine
On ne saurait attendre
Nulle aubaine
On ne saurait prétendre
A l'Aurore vous dis-je
Ce matin
Le temps ça me connaît

L'astre qu'on devinait
L'astre lucide
L'antique point de mire des oraisons
L'éternel luisant l'éternel bolide
Où gît-il
Proie du vide il somnambule au fil de l'horizon
Lui qu'on adula funambule impavide
Lui le premier flambeau de la cordée des heures croyait-on
Soulage désormais dans l'outre-jour livide
Vertige d'abandon
Sa soif de désastre
(Voilà pourquoi le jour matinalement sombre
Dès avant qu'il ne poigne
Inaugural décombre)

Croyez-m'en sur parole
Pas l'ombre d'une aubaine
N'auréole
Le matin désormais
Voyez-vous le temps ça me connaît
Tel il crépusculait définitif

'Croyez m'en'

It is a rare form of  'en croire', which is a set phrase and a stronger, more literary form than 'croyez moi' when trying to persuade someone of something. An important, if rarely used, nuance. By using 'en croire' in its imperative form, the person is not just saying: 'believe me' but also urging the other person to have total faith in what (s)he is saying.          As I said, rather literary, not to be used on the market when trying to haggle down the price of artichokes ! (as in  'croyez-m'en Madame, je n'ai que 2 euro' -Non, non, non)

Example: 'Si vous m'en croyez, vous ne lui donnerez pas cet argent' (If you trust what I'm saying 100%, you will not lend him that money).

Yes, the m'  is the short for 'me' here.

Bizyliz, are you busy preparing for an exam, or is it just that you have an unhealthy penchant for dodgy prepositions ?

[bizzyliz]

I'm afraid it's the unhealthy penchant for dodgy prepositions, plus a genuine love of the French language and a desire to understand it properly. I do do some tuition, mostly young children and adult beginners, but the adults question points of grammar a great deal, and sometimes it's difficult to give totally satisfactory explanations. I wasn't expecting poetry as a reply to my own query! That was lovely, and I really appreciate the time and trouble you have gone to, Vraititi.

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

'but the adults question points of grammar a great deal, and sometimes it's difficult to give totally satisfactory explanations'

Tell me about it ! (= M'en parle pas !) I've just spent my saturday afternoon doing precisely that ! A nice affiction that you've developped though, acquiring a language 'TOC' (tic obsessionnel compulsif) is not 'à la portée de tout le monde'. I, too, was like that a long time ago, then had to seek treatment as I was seriously inconveniencing my entourage and friends with my seemingly inconsequential Q's. There was no Internet in them days, well, 12/15 yrs ago, so one had to either suffer silently or pass for a language bore, a French 'anorak'. Guess which option I chose ! I hate suffering. So went down the language anorak route, with all the trimmings, luxury hood, pointy gortex apex et tout le toutim, la totale quoi ! (=the full Monty).

La poésie, ah, Poetry ! a bit like music really, what would we do w/o it ? Where would we be w/o it ? Well, I wouldn't be in the UK for starters as I came over here thanks to the Lakes poets.

[bizzyliz]

I just wishes there were a few more language bores around! People don't know what they're missing out on.

[bizzyliz]

Don't know how I managed to type I just wishes......

[Tourangelle]

Me too! Total anorak waterproof leggings and Christopher Robin style hat for me when it comes to French grammar, but I can't manage to get so worked up about English grammar...

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

Tu l'as dit bouffi ! (joking slang for 'well spoken !'). I'm not too much of a grammar anorak me (probably barely waterproof, more like the old French K-Way in the 70's, very sweaty inside), more a vocabulary Gortexian, presenting severe lexiconian leanings, with occasionally acute slangic tremors.

[Linnorton]

[quote]Quite straightforward really - and 3 possibilities:- croire - to believe , as in 'Je vous crois!' - 'I believe you!' croire à - to believe in (the existence of) something - 'Je crois aux fée...[/quote]

Thank you Malcom, for the lower intermediate amongst us that was great. I shall try out all 4 during my French conversation lesson on Wednesday.

[M]

[quote]Thank you Malcom, for the lower intermediate amongst us that was great. I shall try out all 4 during my French conversation lesson on Wednesday.[/quote]

A votre service, madame!

Malcolm

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

Yes, and I'd like to second that as well. I, too, was impressed with the quality of M's help, he was concise and to the point. Even as a native speaker, I can still derive a lot from your explanations and clarifications on the French language, particularly when it comes to grammar (I was never taught the mechanisms of it, the whys and wherefores) and that's the great thing about language, you might know a lot but there will alwaysalways be glaring gaps in one's knowledge that, suddenly, throw you right back to the start, even sometimes in your own language. In this particular instance, Malcolm was able to give a crystal clear answer to a very difficult point raised by Bizzyliz (a.k.a Grammar Devil), and I simply tried to fine-tune it as the point she broached branched out in many directions. For convenience sake, when it comes to learning a language, we have to label ourselves ('beginners', 'intermediate' etc.) but I believe that it is far more complicated than that, there's no 'them and us' attitude to have, the cognoscenti and the ignoramuses, and, if there were, I'd be terribly proud to belong in both camps at the same time !

[bizzyliz]

A Grammar Devil I may be, but just to add that the poem 'Aubaine' has enriched my French vocabulary too. That was a wonderful bonus I wasn't expecting when I broached the topic. I googled Antoine Tabard but didn't get results for him.

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

So, how is Grammar Devil cutting then ? Have you found any new grammar fiends to awaken and disturb of late ? Well, I had not heard of Tabard until I goggled in your  'croyez-m'en'  but, yes, it's a lovely poem, I would imagine very hard for a non-native speaker to fully appreciate. Was last night re-reading some Keats's poems , in particular spent an hour comparing 2 french translations of 'to one who has been long in city pent'               (2 admirable translations at that), while reminiscing about distant trips to the Lakes, I had forgotten just how marvellous many of his poems are, especially this one. Far easier to understand though than Aubaine !      I find that Aubaine 'flows' extremely well, and that this Tabard man has the knack to use the right word at the right place, even if the whole thing can feel contrived in places, the sonority of the whole poem largely makes up for a few oddities. I am glad that a seemingly innocuous grammar Q led you to find pleasure into a seemingly anonymous poem. It goes to show that language is to be seen as an ensemble with myriad ramifications, a whole that represents far more than the sum of its parts, and that is far less easy to categorise than we might think. And thank God for that !

[French Kat in England]

Phew, I am glad I don't have to "learn" French

PS: I am French

[bizzyliz]

Mmmm...............I'll have to find some French translations of English poetry, Vraititi. That will make a change from grammar!

Yes, Kat, I appreciate your point. Having taught English as a foreign language for a number of years, I am glad I didn't have to "learn" English.