planning permission and architects contracts

[painterman]

Hi, I hope someone can help by answering our questions.( New to this forum, except we have already asked one person about English speaking notaires.)

We are in the process of buying a dilapidated farmhouse with outbuildings and barns and whilst it has taken an epic 8 months so far, we are not sure if we are 'jumping the gun' a bit. We signed the compromis de vente July 2005 for the house etc and put in a clause suspensive about obtaining a CU and permission for a septic tank but believe that we have had improper service regarding this from the estate agent. After advice from someone on this forum we were put in touch with the notaire who speaks English and things finally seem to have begun moving along with regards to the CU and septic tank. The notaire is putting in a pre-operational CU application which we hope will give us a positive answer.

However, the notaire asked me for drawings of the property and what materials we would use and what work we wanted to do on the buildings because we have asked for a change of use for one part of the building from a barn to additional dwelling space because the house is soo tiny. We have sent him scale 1:100 drawings (plans and elevations and dimensions and photos) but we know that we need to use an architect. Our worry is this, as we haven't still yet completed on the property, and some info' we found on a website states that only the owner of the property can put in for planning permission, then if we pay for an architect to draw up the proper plans  (costly at least 5000 euros we have been told) then who do the plans belong to- us or the present owner who is selling to us? Does anyone have any advice on how best to agree a contract with an architect in France? We have some UK building experience of our own but have never needed to use an architect before. We don't want the architect to project manage things as we want to do the work ourselves over a longish period of time. It has all taken so long to get only this far and we don't want to be duped into paying for architects plans for someone else to benefit if the seller suddenly decides that he doesn't want to sell anymore. We can't understand all the delay and we are feeling frustrated and fobbed off before we have even got to France to live there. We are not sure what the estate agent has been up to but he told us in July 2005 that he had put in the application for the CU, and yet only this past month because the English speaking notaire is helping us (in addition the the French notaire chosen by the estate agent for us who doesn't speak English), is anything happening at all. We paid our deposit for the house last July too and were told that things take time- but this long.... it has given us alot of time to worry. The only good thing so far is that at least when the English speaking notaire asked us for what plans we had for the property, we were able to send proper drawings and plans. I know this is all very long winded and I do hope that someone out there will share a bit of their knowledge about this, but 8 months for buying a house seems to be taking the mickey out of us , so to speak, and we are quite fed up. Any help, gratefully received. 

 

[Will]

If I can go some way towards putting your mind at rest, things can indeed take an inordinately long time in France, particularly where a CU has to be obtained. It does not necessarily mean that agents and notaires are not bothering - though in your case a second notaire, who has been asking questions rather than just waiting, seems to be helping to speed things up.

You definitely did the right thing in having a clause suspensive about  a CU included in the compromis de vente. There is perhaps a little confusion about what a CU actually is - a certificat d'urbanisme is very roughly equivalent to outline planning permission in England, in that it is agreement in principle that a site can be developed, rather than agreeing to a specific form of development, or appearance. So plans are not normally needed for a CU. These come at the next stage, a permis de construire, which has to have full plans and to be submitted by the owner of the site, or their appointed agent. If you are in a sensitive area, or your CU application is a bit borderline according to local policy (maybe due to proximity of agricultural buildings, doubts about vehicular access, lack of adequate electricity or water supply, or drainage questions for example) then the commune or the DDE (local planning department) may well ask for more information about what you intend to do before it grants (or otherwise) the CU. This seems to be what is happening here.

The requirement for plans drawn up by an architect kicks in when you are applying for a permis de construire and the total living area will be in excess of 170m². Before this stage, and for smaller developments, an architect is not required so it looks as if you may have been misinformed.

[French architect]

Will is not completely right when he says that plans are not normally needed for a CU. You need to join a plan but the "plan de cadastre" may be enough, so it's no use paying an architect for this! Anyway, it's a bit strange to ask for a CU while the house is already built on the site. The clause suspensive is usually about obtaining a "Permis de construire" rather than a CU. But anyway, if you need this CU, the DDE has 2 months to grant it. After 4 months without news you're allowed to do a "recours" against French administration.

For the "permis de construire", as Will said, you don't need an architect unless the house is bigger than 170m². But, if you want some new ideas and that you don't want to spend too much time on the plans, an architect will be a good solution. But the price of  5000 euros you've been given is not completely right: as for me, I take 3% of the cost of the building works for a new project and 4% for a restoration. Which means that if you want to spend 50 000€ in the restoration of your house, the "permis de construire" will cost you 2000€. And if you want to build a new house of 100 000€ next to the first one, the "permis de construire" will cost you 3000€.

[painterman]

Thank you for your reply. We were told by the estate agent who did our compromis de vente that we should have had everything completed by December 2005. He also told us that he had submitted the application for the CU and for the septic tank. Unfortunately he admitted a couple of weeks ago that he had not in fact done this, and that the seller's notaire had submitted the Cu but on the wrong parts of the property. We are very grateful to our French speaking notaire who now seems to understand what has been going on through the English speaking notaire as they at least are dealing with this professionally. We have been told not to trust the estate agent, which is a shame but probably true. We hadn't wanted to upset anyone and thankfully we have not been angry with anyone but we have kept our patience. It it costing us though for the extra time we are having to spend over here in the UK as there is little point being in France when all we can do is wait. The property is an old farm that we are trying to buy. We would like to keep a small part of it for agriculture and have included these details in our plans to the notaire. It is definately over the 170 metre square ruling though with regards using an architect, and so we know that we will have to use one for the permis de construire. What we are unsure of though is who the plans belong to if we were to ask an architect to draw them up/copy them from ours with regards French building reg's. The property is still owned by the farmer until we complete and we have read that the owner must submit the plans not prospective owners. We don't want to pay for something and then find that the owner decides not to sell the property. We wish with hindsight that we had added that to the compromis de vente too, but with your comments taken on board about there maybe being a hint that the CU is borderline (the farmhouse is empty has no bathroom or toilet or kitchen) and that this may be the reason for the delay, we shall wait until an answer is returned on the CU before asking any architect to draw up plans.

Once again thank you Will the conqueror and Vickybear  for taking the time to read and reply to my questions. I've just been out to buy the book about renovating property in France- it looks like a good book but there isn't enough info about architects contracts in it. I think we need to organise ourselves for eventualities and have formalised questions ready in writing for the architect of choice when we find one.

Kind regards

Painterman.

[painterman]

Thanks for your reply too. The house is a tiny 79 metres square. We need the CU for a change of use for the attic on the house(store area) and for change of use for a barn and pigsty in to dwelling space as they join onto the tiny house. The 170 metre sq rule definately applies to us. Our notaire is putting in the application for the pre- operational CU  we are now told, and this will take another one to two months, but the estate agent said it would take another three to four months which is quite unprofessional. If we were to pull out of the purchase we would have to pay penalties and still have to pay the 10,000 euros for the estate agent fees if we have translated the small print on the compromis de vente properly. As it is, we do not want to have to pull out of the purchase, we want to buy this farmhouse and convert the barn and pigsty into a house my family and I could live in. As in my reply to Will the conqueror and Vicky bear, we think that it will be best to wait for the CU, especially if it is borderline, because if the CU is not granted for us to be able to convert the barn and pigsty and renovate the house then at least we should be able to have our deposit back from the estate agent, albeit nearly a year after having paid it. (8months so far).

Best wishes

Painterman