EcoPower

[quote user="odile"]we were told heat pumps need perfectly insulated buildings.[/quote] A well insulated building is a priority for any property (irrespective of the type of heating) and the best place to spend your money before anything else. Insulation is a 'one off' cost and has no monthly bills thereon There are pellet making machines available for home use which may help to minimise ongoing costs. Good luck with the wooly jumpers and thick socks. Marc

[quote user="odile"]how about a wood pellet system? |Very popular in Germany, Switzerland and Austria, and also advised by Uk Rural Energy? Any experience of this? [/quote] We have a couple of projects in progress which are using pellet systems - one is in conjunction with a solar hot water system / thermal store and the other is in conjunction with a ground source heat pump (just commenced). I know the pellet stove for the first is costing the customer 14000 Euros so he's commited to say the least. Too early for any quantified feedback but most customers seem to be set as to what they want. On the flipside we have had one customer say they didn't want to go wood pellet for fear of rising wood costs and supply issues re the pellets. I imagine supply and demand will drive the market prices as usual. As a rule we generally prefer a mix of technologies, i.e. heat pump plus solar, wind turbine plus PV etc etc. It's hedging your bets and is not reliant on one specific type of renewable. Marc

[quote user="Gyn_Paul"]And still nobody's answered Callie's question as to what a heat pump is... It's reckoned that the most efficient systems can derrive (sp?) 4kw (equiv) of heat, for every 1kw of electricity used to power the heat pump . [/quote] It is easy to digress on these forums as the threads develop - Paul makes a good point and just to add: Yes a heat pump is a fridge - either air or ground source. Air source are much easier to install but tend to be less efficient - if you live in an area prone to high humidity then it may not prove the best option. The main work involved in installing for ground source is usually digging the trenches for the groundloop but most people seem to know a 'man with digger' which tends to reduce cost substantially. The efficiency is known as Co-efficient of Performance (CoP) and this can exceed 4:1 by some margin with the right product, air source tend to have a lower CoP. If you opt for a heat pump use it to its maximum, i.e. heating and domestic hot water plus dump the excess heat into a pool if you have one. The more you use it the better the return. They can work with radiators for retrofit, and it surprises most people that in fact the antique style cast iron type work better than most existing alternatives. Low temp rads are available, otherwise double the area so the heat pump is not running at full throttle. It is fairly common now to couple these to a solar system and the additional cost in doing so is relatively small. Hope that helps. Marc

[quote user="Owens88"] AFAIK the difference was significant. Electric boiler less than a quarter the price of the oil one - and we freed up space by getting rid of the oil tank.   John [/quote] And if you spent what you saved on some sort of renewable energy product (wind, PV etc) then maybe it makes financial sense in the long term as well?

I cannot definitively say it will be cheaper to run but as a holiday home, if you do the sums for a new boiler, fuel etc then electric UFH usually comes out best over a period of time, say 10 years. Greater than 10 years then really you are into Geothermal or Air source heat pumps as the best option. All types of UFH can be run at much lower temps than rads so it could be argued that it is more efficient in use. Again, as a holiday home if you couple electric UFH to internet control then you have remote operation. You really need to do the sums and amortise costs over a period of time. Electric UFH will always come out lower in terms of capital costs. Hope that helps Marc

I would prefer to have UFH but don't want to lose the parquet - is this a feasible solution. Obviously budget is a constraint but if the cost differential is not huge then it should certainly be a consideration You can fit UFH under parquet providing the temp is neverr allowed to exceed 27 degrees as this can irreperably damage the floor. This is esily achieved with electric UFH as the thermocouple is actually under the floor and 'film system' UFH is ideal. It is possible with wet UFH but slightly harder and more costly initially. You could consider new radiators of course and providing you choose low temp or new antique style cast rads then Geothermal could indeed be incorporated at a later date to run these. As someone has mentioned with wet UFH you also have the choice of the heating type / source. I would suggest that with so many options and the fact this is primarily a holiday home then budget is perhaps the primary consideration in which case electric UFH will be the lowest - any type of UFH is better than alternatives in terms of comfort and runing costs. Marc

Any reason why the LNB can't be used Les? I'm using our old Sky LNB with an 80cm OPTEX dish and also did exactly the same for a friend with an ELAP dish? They both work very well? Marc

Size matters! Get a big one - 80cms and use your exisitng LNB. You can set them up using the signal test facility on the sky box but it takes a little patience. Signal quality is more important than signal strength and get the right satellite stream, for Sky you need transport stream 07d4. The dishes are not expensive and most come with a universal LNB. Set up right it won't drop out. Good luck Marc

No problems generally to fit in France. You may have to fill in a Declaration Prealable if your property is in a 'sensitive location'. If you need any advice please feel free to send me a PM. Regards Marc

Our company supplies Renewable Energy Products and we are looking for installers and distributors throughout France. We are very open minded as to any mutually beneficial partnership and if you share are ethos we would be interetsed in any proposals. We also have affiliates who help promote our business on a more informal basis. We will shortly be launching a new range of Oil, Gas and LPG Savers which are guaranteed to produce significant fuel and monetary savings, Installation on boilers is relatively simple so we would be pleased to hear from people who may have the necessary skill sets to undertake such work. Please feel free to ask any questions via PM or via our website contacts page. Kind regards, Marc

For a holiday home then electric underfloor with internet control makes sense - at least you can control when away and put it on just before you arrive if needs be. That said, of course its underfloor so the work may not warrant the return? Marc

For hot water go solar - period. For electricity reduction use a plug in electricity saver. The stats on ballons are always set too high but most can be adjusted to a sensible figure. The 'A' you refer to is not always amps - RCD's for example are rated A, B, C which refer to sensitivity not current. As an aside it was proved some time ago that it was more efficient to leave an immersion on permanently providing the stat was set sensibly. This was a controversial view but we have tried various methods and for us at least it is better. It does depend on your water usage habits though as well as a number of other factors such as tank insulation etc. Marc

To trade as a domestic electrician in France it is acceptable if you have undertaken and passed a UK Part P course. The course is usually of one weeks duration and is available at a number of colleges etc. I think The Builder Centre at Croydon did these courses. As for official translations etc etc it really depends on your particular departments / Chambre de Metier / etc views or even if you catch them on a good day? Decennal insurance is not always required - again it depends on your APE code - as far as public liability insurance goes which is probably more important from a personal perspective there are only a handful of companies who will deal with you and have something of a monopoly. We got ours by opening a new business account with Bank Populaire whihc was about the only way we could get it. Good luck anyway (PS: you could become an installer for us with a lot less hassle??) Regards Marc

The roof is south facing so solar panels seem a good option- although I understand there are a new type coming on the market which are only avaiable to businesses at the moment.I understand they're not panels as such but roll like thick foil. Surly sell-back electricity is the way to go for someone like us????? Oil prices????......................I'm now having serious concerns about replacing the boiler and converting to electricity..........this time last year it would just have been an automatic replacement.........amazing what changes a year brings eh????   The type of PV you mention is thin film technology – very in-efficient but lower initial cost and generally difficult to source at present as the main lower cost source has the manufacturing process quite well wrapped up in patents. Given current products available also important to choose an efficient system – there are mono crystalline, poly crystalline, amorphous etc etc. All have pros and cons but don’t just plump for the lowest price. What you save initially will be eroded by the poor performance. For buy back (net metering) rates I can send the info from EDF if anyone wants it (French only).   One word of caution though – the rates may well be dramatically reduced in the near future as is happening in Spain, Cyprus, Greece and the USA. Speculation whether France will reduce and ADEME  are saying nothing but my feeling is that France will follow. So, if you intend on doing something then sooner rather than later whilst the contracts are still available. Debateable whether net metering is financially viable, around 1200 Euros for EDF to install the new meter/s and high capital cost. Possibly worth thinking about starting smaller and extend if you feel the system is performing well. Insolation levels ate your location also need to be considered.   Will EDF’s prices for electricity go up as a direct result of Oil etc prices? Possibly Oil will not dramatically affect EDF as much of the energy produced is nuclear. Take a view I guess? Gut feeling vs payback, investment etc – maybe electricity with your mains supplemented by PV or Wind / Water turbine is a good compromise?   So many choices so good luck. Marc

To address the initial question: electric heating can present the lowest up front cost, electric UFH works extremely well and is the lowest to install (and run) if you work on around 10 years. It should last forever and if you can possibly produce some of the electricity yourself then can make good economic sense. If you are thinking about longer than 10 years this opens up many possibilities which have been eluded to here. Geothermal - yes probably, highest initial cost but CoP of 4:1 makes payback possible within 10 years - the more you use it the quicker the payback, i.,e. if you use it for domestic hot water and swimming pool heating and air conditioning (yes it can be done with fan coil units) then your payback is likely to be within say 8 years compared to current fuel solutions. Air source heat pumps - okay but probably not worth the investment. Most have low CoPs during the colder months despite what the manufacturers specs say. Solar hot water - yes, budget between 2500 - 4000 Euros. Payback is probably around 6 - 10 years. Mains Electric plus say Solar PV - can present good value but depends how far you go. Its the law of diminishing returns but if you opt for net metering then buyback rates are good. You have lots of options - suggested place to start is time you may spend in the property and therefore how long you will benefit plus payback time. Second, what kind of budget you are willing to commit. I suppose it's a case of invest up front or spend little and pay the monthly bills which of course is interelated to time. Good luck Marc

Wind turbines - Blots on the landscape !!!!!!! I like mine - it's just a little more interesting to watch than Solar. Even my wife who thought it would look out of place thinks it blends in rather well. Still, each to their own. I think you have really hit the keyword re Solar for any heating application - 'supplemented'. That said, despite supplying such products I have my reservations about the cost vs return. Depends on your motives I guess. Personally I like Biomass (wood) but then I would, wouldn't I. We do seem to have an abundance here in France Marc

I admire your passion for the subject and wish all customers did a similar amount of research. It's a very contraversial subject, but I have to admit that one of the reasons we tend to like Electric UFH is because of Frances substantial use of Nuclear for electricity production - i.e. very low carbon footprint when compared to coal etc. As regards the oil situation we too have friends that are not using (or at least severely limiting) the use of their oil fired central heating systems. That said, (and its genuinely not intended as advertising), we WILL have a product guaranteed to reduce Oil / Gas / LPG consumption dramatically very soon. The friends I mention have volunteered to be our resident data collection site for this product. The purpose of mentioning this is that we would like to try and obtain either TVA relief or Tax Credits for customers on these products and ADEME etc are not playing ball. It is obviously not in the interests of the Oil / other companies and we certainly won't be taking on BP, Shell, etc etc. So, any ideas or help in this matter greatly appreciated. It really is in everybodies interest. The idea of a thermal store is probably sound as you suggest the solar will provide a 'top up'. For this I agree - but only as a 'top up'. A thermal store of any significance is large both in size and volume so too much for solar on it's own. I also agree re Geothermal. It is costly and disruptive - vertical bore holes seem to cost much more here than in the UK which greatly surprised me. Personally, for a new build or conversion I would opt for a Canadian / Provencal well before GSHP/ASHP. Very cheap to incorporate and if driven by a Solar PV fan system then a real winner. As for TCO then insulate, insulate, insulate - in that order and if you need it to be eco friendly then sheeps wool, recycled paper etc etc. I actually suspect some of the incentives will be reduced soon vis a vis the anticipated reduction in net metering prices and the tax credit scheme ending in 2009 - that said even this is something of a scam and suppliers are certainly not telling the truth about these. ADEME cannot (will not?) comment on what, if anything will replace the scheme so we shall have to wait and see. Again I hope you are right about France taking some sort of initiative but I remain sceptical. There are still many 'jobs for the boys' schemes which only serve to increase product costs with Qualisol being a prime example. Regards Marc

Interesting comments especially regards the pre-conception that solar has to be mounted on a roof. Perhaps this is in part due to the net metering rates for electricity via PV which is 0.55 centimes for roof mounted PV and only 0.30 centimes for ground mounted so everbody automatically thinks 'the roof it is then''. Unfortunately, as you rightly eluded to previously regards system components, the cost vs return of a commercially available tracking system is questionable. Mind you, for solar thermal todays controllers can accomodate orientations other than solar south with reasonable efficiency. Here's an interesting snippet: In France, for instance, dwelling and office buildings output around 90 million tons of CO2 per year, out of a total of 385 million tons. The aim of the national “Climate 2004” plan is to divide France's emissions by four by the beginning of 2050, and promote the use of solar and other renewable energies. However, few economic players seem interested, whether they be consultants, research departments, manufacturers, or installers. “In the 1970s there were as many as 60-70 manufacturers of solar thermal collectors. There are considerably fewer today,” If I had to place a long term bet it would be on hybrid-thermal (PV/T) systems - but it's just going to need the right level of investment from industry / government. I believe it's a French chap leading some of this research? Lastly, I couldn't agree with your last point more - this point will in fact be the first article in a series for a national newspaper. Whole house energy audit and efficiency plan etc. Have we strayed off the subject of the initial post a little? Will this be the longest thread on the forum? Marc

Quote: What is clear, is the new urgency driven by insane fossil fuel prices, themselves driven by greed of major oil companies. Oh how true. To compound matters, governments (the taxman) enjoy ever increasing revenues from TVA, VAT, etc levied on these sources which does dissappoint me. To rub salt into the wound, today Centrica have ''suggested'' energy prices will again increase due to continuing rises in Oil and Gas costs. Bearing in mind that Shell & BP are some of the biggest players in the Solar PV market one wonders whether this goes conflicts with their main source of revenue? I suspect Thin Film Technology may have a positive effect on the market but I believe the main USA source has some very nicely guarded patents on what seems to be a very slick production method so I wonder where they will position these products? Amorphous PV seems to be the current 'in thing' which is understandable. My colleague in Spain tells me new builds have to employ some form of solar energy system within the construction, but the vast majority of products used to comply with this requirement is Solar Thermal Syphon purely because of cost. I do hope you are right about decreasing prices for PV. Yes, interesting times ahead indeed. I hope I'm around to see it. Marc

Gosh - what a response and your points are well made. My belief re cost of PV stays the same however and this belief is based predominantly upon economics and the product life cycle. My opinion is that we are only at the middle of the introduction phase in the product life cycle so still growth and maturity to come, but I suspect even this will change as new technologies are introduced thereby distracting manufacturers from focusing on current core products and how they position these in the market. As you rightly note, many of the manufacturers are based in China and the costs of shipping are increasing all the time. Additionally the costs of shipping also affects the manufacturers regards the supply of raw materials. I am told by colleagues in the far east that the cost of labour is also increasing as it did in Korea some time ago so this will affect the 'bottom line'. To further confuse things the export (buy back price of electricity rates) is expected to change (reduce) as is happening in many European countries and now also in the USA who are the largest consumer of this type of technology. Because of this the race is on for prospects to buy their PV systems to beat this expected reduction in buy back rates which will only serve to put a big 'blip' in the product life cycle curve. I think you are absolutely right when you mention the associated control systems and as I'm sure you know this area is strongly dominated by just a couple of manufacturers. If we saw a change here then that certainly would affect matters favourably. It's a difficult call but I still believe that the cost of PV will not change significantly in the near future and there are many variables which affect in this equation. All that said I sincerely hope you are right as it can only help all of us. Regards Marc.

Hello Geoff I didn't know such a service was available through Forums or am I misunderstanding something? What I think is acceptable to say is that a monthly column will soon (July onwards) be apearing in one of the national newspapers (whose name I won't mention) that will encompass many aspects of renewable energy, energy saving etc. It is in no way an advertising column but intended to hopefully help all with ideas, concepts, technologies available, to dispel myths etc etc with many of the ideas costing virtually nothing to implement. The first article may be 'Whole house energy audit' but if anyone has any thoughts on subjects that might be useful I would sincerely welcome and appreciate them. Regards Marc

Its a fair comment and a fine line between advertising and trying to help which is why I put the link to another website, not our website, which I thought might be acceptable. Obviously not so humble apologies. I will refrain completely in the future and just post general comments. So difficult to know what to do as I truly believe some of these lesser known products would be of great interest to all? Marc

A previous post referred to property insulation and this is by far the best, no doubt about it, way to improve comfort and reduce energy bills. For those who have Oil, Gas or LPG boilers the following may be of interest. I cannot mention any details without contravening Forum rules re advertising, but if anyone would like to PM or email me I can provide further information about a product that has previously only generally been available to the commercial market. I will not note where you can found out more or purchase this product. I hope that helps some and also sincerely hope that this general information is not seen as advertising. Marc. Post edited by a moderator to remove link

Hello Lily, I'll send you a PM (if I can find out how to?) - we have a lot of enquiries about both water turbines and water wheels (excellent machines) and Hydro power is always the best investment if you have a dependable water source. Regards Marc

[quote user="Lilly"] Hi Ecopower, My friends installation was carried out by a very reputble electrician heating engineer and knowing these friends no cost cutting would have been applied to the materials, now allowing for the fact that mistakes can ad do happen may be this was the case but than that would have to be true to all installations no matter by whom they are laid. When we did the research (very extensive it was too!) and not entirely by me, I flick the switches and make tea !!! ( proberbly not doing myself justice really but you get my point) Comparing Devis for good quality oil / gas systems and if you factor in the reimborsement of 50% on the specific material and labour costs of geothermal linear method it was very much in favour of going Geo as it came out the same for gas, or oil but with this option being cheaper to run after! On top of this we did all the donkey work , dug out the area for the capture and re filling after, posing of all the radiators and we laid the underfloor pipework and insolation with a scematic of course and the patron came and checked that we had indeed installed properly no kinks etc and quite a few other things, we had them do the important stuff involving electricity and anything we felt that a true professional should thus also preserving our guarentee. Incidently would your friends problems have been covered by the extensive Guarentee for premature wear and tear and I fail to see what they have neglected to do that is specific to a geothermal installation and would the same neglect have caused problems for any other system including Electric. I would be intersted to know how effective these evacuated tube panels work as don't they work on UV so it is not so necessary  for it to be sunny. My opinion so far is in an ideal world and to an extent money as side if you can fork it out up front, a dual solar plus geo is worth considering. We have a River with good continuas flow and I would like to harness this really but I'm not sure how the Architec de Batiment de France or whom ever would feel about that!!. Not really changing the subject by the font has changed and I don't mean to shout or stand out, but I'm not quite sure how to change it back? [/quote] Hello Lily, As regards electric UFH it is impossible to comment on a specific installation other than to say that from case studies our system comes out very well. For Geothermal with wet UFH you have done exceptionally well to undertake a lot of the work yourselves with a huge reduction in costs by doing so. You are right that for a good quality boiler the cost can also be high but the savings you have made with your own labour are huge. Fot that I can only congratulate you. I'm not sure I understand the point you elude to as regard our friends installation? Solar evacuated tube systems work exceptionally well for domestic hot water and for pools. You will find lots of information about these systems but I speak from experience. They work and you are right, they work on UV and as the tubes are evacuated ambient temperature has virtually no effect upon perfromance. If you have a dependable water source whihc runs through your  property then do try and use it. Absolutely the best form of renewable energy period. Kind regards Marc