oakbri

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]A fascinating, although totally irrelevant insight into goings-on in the Sudan.  Weren't we discussing how the UK has been flushed so far down the pan that it may never recover? Now we're discussing muslims protesting in a muslim country!!! And it really was a crowd of thousands according to the press, I assume......or were you actually there? Sorry, oakbri, I don't mean to sound so abrupt, but this debate is once again going round in circles. For example, if we must discuss the fact that the majority of muslims are peace loving, then to be honest, even if there was a crowd of thousands protesting, in a muslim country with a population of over 39 million, a few thousand protesters only prove what's already been said numerous times: it's a vocal and unrepresentative minority[8-)][/quote] Sorry Betty, the Sudan thing came up in an earlier post, it is very hard to stay specifically on the original post on a topic which is obviously important to a lot of people. Yes a few thousand protesters in a country of 39 million is very few, as it has been said before statistics lie. For example how many of that 39 million actually had the possibility to be at the embassy that day, given it is a vast country with little or no public transport, few privately owned cars etc, suddenly the numbers change significantly, that is the problem with statistics.

Charlotte ????????? No the protesters descended on the embassy because a teacher allowed a child to call a teddy Mohammed, strangely the protesters were muslims, you remember, the peace loving ones. My point was the press was being accused of making out that a couple of Mullahs represent all muslims, I was trying to show that while the press may exaggerate, I don't think they exaggerate that much, all the time. It wasn't a couple of mullahs in the Sudan, it really was a crowd of thousands.

Charlotte I wasn't having a go at Buddhists, quite the opposite in fact, I was just being ironic. And while I don't doubt that muslims are peaceful, when the press show a mob of thousands, with machettes, descending on the British embassy in Khartoum it doesn't look to me like a few radical clerics, it looked like a mob of thousands, then again the BBC could have used camera trickery.

[quote user="Pads"]I dont think there is a law as in written down in black and white, but it is filtering down from up high some how, caused by do gooders and people who are to scared to make a right decision in case some one is offended, I thought an awlful lot of what I was hearing was hear say, jokes, urban myths, until last summer our local school( infant /juniors) sent out in the news letter that children would not be allowed to sing baa baa black sheep and more and the word black was to be replaced by pink, and they were asking parents if they were going to teach there children this song could they teach them the word Pink. which is utter nonsence, im sorry but if any one takes offence to such a song, I to would be the first to tell them to go some where else. there is a lot of this kind of nonsence going on, and I can see why its causing problems between different groups of people. No one should expect to go to a new country and  to have it changed  to fit in with them , they should learn to fit in with the country they have moved to.  NO? I have no problems with any one living where they want as long as they dosnt affect the natives in a negative way.            [/quote] Well said Pads The fact is, that black sheep do actually exist, so children can at least relate to it. Anyone ever seen a pink sheep? Are you sure it won't offend the gay community?

[quote user="Tresco"][quote user="Bugbear"]At the end of the day does it really matter, surely it's all about how an individual sees a particular situation. T[/quote] No, it isn't. On here, it's about people posting stuff, wildly exaggerated claims which reflect badly on minority groups in society, and not providing the slightest scrap of evidence to back up their claims.. These posters will never, ever, show me the law that has banned Nativity Plays, Gollys, Christmas Carols Singers, in fact Christmas...they will never, ever,  show me the Governments role in 'yielding' to the 'demands' of Muslims, of policies which 'throw away' or in other ways try to 'get rid of' our heritage. [/quote] Tresco Friday June 10, 2005 The Guardian "A mandate is a wonderful thing, even if this government's rests on just 22% of the electorate. A bad bill already twice rejected with a big rebellion on Labour benches was tabled again yesterday, regardless of the strength of opposition to it. The incitement to religious hatred bill is back, although it lost the argument resoundingly on every other outing. Forward not back? No, back for the third time. Why? To appease a Muslim vote that elected George Galloway in Bethnal Green and gave a fright to several other MPs. It is an appeasing gesture strongly lobbied for by the mainstream Muslim Council of Britain. But its unintended consequences will stir up exactly the religious hatred it seeks to assuage." Most of the things you list can be found by a simple google search. I am sure everyone remembers the storekeeper raided by police for selling golliwogs. The charges were finally dropped in the face of massive public pressure. But what were the police doing with this in the first place.

Betty, you were not the one in the huff. Others tend to print pictures of walls when they no have a valid point. I try to treat it as I would a petulant child, but it does get up my nose. Sorry that comment wasn't for you. With regard to Christmas, yes it is a Christian celebration, even if it has its roots in paganism. The point for me is that the UK is, or was, a christian country, the head of state is also the head of the church, a christian church. Therefore why do any of out traditions have to be changed, they have been perfectly good for hundreds of years, what is suddenly wrong with them. I was brought up a catholic, but I am not practising, my wife is orthodox. My christmas is december 25th, hers is january 7th. I wanted a tree in mid december even though she wanted it on december 31st. I wanted to take it down on january 5th, she wants it up till the end of january. So we get a tree up for a lot longer than anyone else, we don't change my traditions or hers. So why is it I read about nativities cancelled, wording changed. It is possible to just celebrate it all. The reason it got referred to Islam is that the press have focussed in on Muslims being offended on quite a regular basis, but I am sure the buddist fundamentalists are just as vocal.

Double post. sorry

[quote user="You can call me Betty"] Can I just ask a question again that I asked so many pages ago that I've subsequently started to lose the will to live? Among the huge number of righteously indignant people on this thread protesting in the strongest possible terms about the erosion of British society evidenced by the lack of school nativity plays, how many of you are in fact practising Christians and regular churchgoers? Because unless it actually means enough to you to actually maintain it, then regrettably you've only got yourselves to blame when it disappears. The Government doesn't make you go to church, or prevent you from doing so. It's a matter for you, your conscience and your personal choice. If you want to defend your right to a set of traditions based on traditional Christian values, then what about the other 364 days a year when you could be upholding them?   [/quote] Sorry Betty I didn't know I had to be a churchgoer to celebrate Christmas. I think I am going to get a wall, it seems to be the thing to do when someone disagrees with you. Does anyone know a forum where adults can debate a subject, no matter how different their take on it is to your own, without getting into a huff.

The story linked above is horrendous, as I said before yob culture. Those morons probably hear the same media reports we all do regarding immigration and have an instant target. I still believe as well as poor press the government must take some blame. Two years ago I was living in Italy and took my son along to enrol in a primary school. As we filled in the forms a muslim man arrived. He started to ask for the forms and said something along the lines of " yes my daughter can come here but you must take that down" and pointed to a crucifix hanging in the hallway. Luckily common sense prevailed and he was quickly and quite unpolitely shown the door. He obviously didn't know Italy is a predominately catholic country. But if it happened in the UK what would have happened, remember this is the same country where the schools were falling over themselves to ban the nativity this christmas, I think I know the answer. Then the press would hear about it, report it and hey presto the thugs again think they have a legitimate target.

[quote user="KathyF"][quote user="oakbri"] KathyF Excuse my ignorance but you imply that illegal immigrants receive nothing, how do they survive? I can't imagine lasting more than a couple of days in the UK with no money or accommodation. I know the media lie, but all the people you see massing in Calias, what are they coming for if they will receive nothing? Have they been misinformed? It was probably the British press. [/quote] Oakbri, Try browing the links in the BBC website on some of these topics and you'll find some real horror stories. The sweatshops of Britain (and they DO exist) are filled with illegal immigrants who can't afford to complain.  Remember the cockle-pickers who drowned in Morecambe Bay?  They were illegal immigrants ruled by totally unscrupulous gang-masters. There is always work to be had, though often at derisory rates, and if you're desperate enough you will work for almost nothing.... For women (and for increasing numbers of young men) there is of course always prostitution....[:(] As for accommodation, they sleep rough or on the floors of others who have managed to find accommodation, or they get accommodation of a sort along with their virtually bonded labour. I agree that many of them are probably misinformed, but when your own country can offer you little or no hope, people will try elsewhere. [/quote] Kathy I only hope the government are doing everything to catch and imprison the owners of the sweatshops and deport the people in them. I haven't read anything about it, but it probably wouldn't be newsworthy

KathyF Excuse my ignorance but you imply that illegal immigrants receive nothing, how do they survive? I can't imagine lasting more than a couple of days in the UK with no money or accommodation. I know the media lie, but all the people you see massing in Calias, what are they coming for if they will receive nothing? Have they been misinformed? It was probably the British press.

Clarkkent Thanks for the reply. I agree newspapers only report the less desireable areas of life, they would get few sales if their headline read " Mrs Miggins cat went outside today, and came back with a mouse" As I said I have no recent hands on experience in the UK, so my information can only come from the very people who are hell bent on making the UK look bad. Yob culture may have its roots in medievel history, but the Romans marched across Europe and destroyed everything in their path, however I have spent hundreds of evenings out in Italy, from Milan to Rome to Catania and never seen a single fight. When I go out in my home town I wouldn't expect to get past 9pm before I saw the first punch up. How can the Italians leave behind their warrior roots so successfully. I am not talking here of football violence, which falls into a separate category. My view of the rail system comes from a few bad experiences. I once travelled from Lyon to Paris in 2 hours, then onto London in another 2 hours or so, then to Aberdeen in something like 9 hours if my memory serves me right. It may have been a 1 off, again the rest comes from the press. I apologise if my view is incorrect, when you read that schools are changing old habits to suit Muslims you tend to believe it, just as you do when you read that a baying mob of thousands chant for a teacher to be beheaded for the henious crime of allowing a 5 year old to call his teddy Mohammed, or a Saudi court sentences a girl to 200 lashes for the crime of being gang raped. There will always be inaccuracies, and without first hand experiences you can only make a judgement on the information you have.

[quote user="Tresco"][quote user="oakbri"] Tresco Sorry change that to read policies not policy. [/quote] OK. [:)] Please can you point me to Government policies 'of disregarding our heritage to prevent from offending anyone...' [/quote] Tresco The origianl post was about schools cancelling nativity plays and changing various customs so as to not offend anyone. I expect schools would only do this on an order from the department of education, which in turn acts on government policies. By the way, the clumsy way the government is trying to force muliculturism on the UK as failing both ways with the muslims also feeling marginalised by the policies, for example see http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/images/libimages/243.pdf

Tresco Sorry change that to read policies not policy.

Clarkkent The changes I feel that have happened in the UK are mainly to do with the yob culture, the degradation of the NHS etc etc, all things commonly written about in the press. But I agree with you, It would be good to get information from other sources, but whichever source you use it will be biased to their own agenda. The medical care has in my view gone down due to underfunding and overload. Your doctor sounds wonderful but I don't think that represents doctors as a whole. My fathers doctors certainly isn't as well equipped as yours. My view of the transport system is solely down to my personal comparisons when visiting other countries. Our rail system is not worth a mention. The roads are vastly overcrowded, I have spent enough hours trying to navigate the M1, M6 and M25 to tell me that. also the governments preoccupation with making money out of speed cameras mean most peoples attention is on their speedo rather than the road in front of them, leading I believe , to a degradation in road safety. Don't think I think France is better, whilst their roads are much better and their TGV system is a distant dream for us their bus system to non rural areas is very poor in comparison and their road death rate is deploreable. Airports are probably better off not being mentioned, if you have tried flying out of Gatwick or Heathrow recently you will know why. My comments about the national flag again, comes from the media reporting on councils being reluctant to show it, I apologise if they were lying. My mention of cycle helmets was little more than a joke, we didn't wear helmets as kids because they didn't exist. Amazingly I survived. That said they are a good idea and I would not let my child ride a bike without one, I can't say many other health and safety rules are that helpful. Whilst I am sure everyone is impressed by your knowledge of our great writers and thinkers I am not sure what relevance it is, I was talking about Christmas as that was the original post. By the way I don't know much about them, I went to boarding school and our headmaster had us study Sheakspeare, Dostoevsky, Pushkin and Pasternak, he obviously thought they made better reading.

Hi Russethouse I agree, as I originally said, my information comes from Sky and the Daily Mail, and as I also said they do have their own agenda. I don't pretend to have hands on experience. I was making a point on the 2 main themes of this post. Firstly I do believe life in the UK has deteriorated. When I was young prescriptions were free for everyone as was dental care. You now have to pay for prescriptions and, unless you have been registered with your dentist for a long time, you would be hard pressed to find one to take you on under the NHS. Also our road and rail systems are poor and children are no longer as active as they were, certainly there was not the constant media reports of obesity, as a nation we are becoming more like the Americans each day. Secondly I was remarking on the original theme of the post regarding the ludicrous and unforgiveable practise of changing our customs to not offend newcomers. I am afraid I am of the belief that if they don't like get them a taxi to the airport. I firmly believe that the government policy of disregarding our heritage to prevent from offending anyone is actually breeding resentment and dividing people even further.

[quote user="LanguedocGal"][quote user="oakbri"]  My wife is not from the UK and has never lived there.... Last year I took my wifes parents to the UK for the first time. -----  I was saddened by that remark but must admit, in contrast to where they are from where obesity simply doesn't exsit in the younger population...  Personally I don't think multiculturism works----, [/quote] In my experience, multiculturalism works when extremists of all kinds are kept at bay. Oakbri, I was interested by your claim of ''Personally I don't think multiculturism works...''.   However, reading your post, you say that your wife is not from the UK etc. I assume, therefore, that you married someone not of your ''culture''. I fail to understand your comments unless you can give me a definition of multiculturalism that I do not know.  I hope you realise that a marriage between a French and a Brit or a French and an Italian is actually multicultural (though not multiracial if they are both of the same colour). Are you saying that your marriage is a failure? So, as many people tend to write often on this forum... I'm confused.[8-)] [/quote] Hi LanguedocGal No my marriage is great. I think you are (or I am) confusing multiculturism with differing nationalities. For example, I have a different nationality to a Scotsman, but our culture is very similar. I guess it all comes down to how you interpret the word culture. However I do accept your point. Maybe my terminology was wrong. I don't know what you call it when you try to get different people of different racial and ethnic backgrounds with vastly different and largely incompatable religious and political ideologies to live together. I personally don't think it works. Maybe someone can tell me where it does work. It certainly doesn't here in France otherwise the regular riots in the suburbs wouldn't happen and Jean Marie Le Penn wouldn't have come so close to ousting Chirac in his last election.

[quote user="raindog"][quote user="oakbri"]  Now thanks to the lunatics at the health and safety commission our kids are not allowed out, for their own good. [/quote] eh? [8-)] [/quote] Sorry raindog, have you not read the reports of climbing frames being dismantled, the game of conkers being banned etc etc, all for health and safety. If the kids are no longer allowed to play games we all played (and survived [:-))]) then no wonder they are turning into a nation of couch potatoes.

I left the UK in 1993 and have been fortunate enough to have had the chance to live in the four courners of the globe since. I arrived in France in early 2002 due to work. I do not believe I view the UK with rose tinted spectacles, but there can be no doubt that things have changed for the worst. Apart from my all to infrequent visits, my view of the current standard of life in the UK comes from Sky news and reading the Daily Mail, which I accept both have their own agendas. My wife is not from the UK and has never lived there, and sadly as her information comes from the same sources as me, has said that we cannot ever live there. In my view the UK has gone from being a once respected nation, to a nation of couch potatoes, second rate medical care, third rate transport system and has a government bent on destroying it even further. It is also the only country I know where displaying the national flag is almost an offence. Last year I took my wifes parents to the UK for the first time. I spent 2 weeks showing them as much as possible, we had a great time. As we were leaving I asked them what they thought, they had very much enjoyed it but the one remark that stuck in my mind was "what is wrong with the girls in your country? They are all so overweight" I was saddened by that remark but must admit, in contrast to where they are from where obesity simply doesn't exsit in the younger population, most of the young girls we saw were overweight, and instead of dressing appropriately, insisted on wearing tight tops and mini skirts which emphasised the beer bellies that hung out over them. I don't remember it being like that when I was young. We were all busy outside doing crazy things like riding our pushbikes, without helmets !!! And running round the local park. Now thanks to the lunatics at the health and safety commission our kids are not allowed out, for their own good, instead they get to sit on the couch all day playing playstation. The other problem in the UK is the governments absolute mission to apease all faiths and minorities at the expense of our own cultural heritage. I believe it is a governments responsibility to preserve our culture, not feel embarrased by it, and they should be held to account. At the begining of the post was a link to a newspaper, one of the quotes was from a school teacher who said that in the nativity play the three kings were not going to bring gifts of gold, frankincence and myyrh but of peace and cooperation??? The nativity is a scene from the christian bible and they were going to change it not to offend any muslims. Can you imagine what would happen if they changed something from the Koran, there would be flag burning and riots. Why can't the powers that be just treat everyone the same? A friend of mine was telling me how his young son brought a letter home from school saying they were taking the children to visit a mosque "in order to give a balanced veiw of faiths", my friend bumped into the headmaster outside the school and said that it was fair enough but asked when were they going to visit a church as well, the headmaster said they were not, as it might offend the parents of the muslim children. My friend was speechless, how can that give the children a balanced view? My friend then said that in that case he would not permit his son to go on the trip, the school wouldn't back down, so he had to keep his child off school that day and write a sick note. I don't doubt that taking the christian children to a mosque would give them a more balanced view of faiths, then why deny the muslim children the same possibility. By not visiting a church only goes to promote the "ours is the one true religion" piffle the fundamentalist Mullah preach when they begin the indoctrination of their youths. Personally I don't think multiculturism works, the beliefs and ideologies of different people are just not compatable and it would seem that the current hot topic in the media is Islam. I don't mind of someone wants to believe in Islam, it doesn't work for me, some of their beliefs, the subjugation of women, sharia law, slicing their childrens heads open on Ashoura day etc etc is a bit too much. What I don't like is when I have to change my lifestyle to accommodate them. There is a guy on youtube called Pat Condell, look him up, he is quite exteme in his views for me, but I believe he is also the voice of a growing number of the populace in the UK. The reason his views are becoming so mainstream is driven by the governments poilicies and the media's desire to stir up the nation.  

Looks beautiful, better not let the other half see it or she will be packing her bags. I am going to try and make a few visits before the end of winter, then again in late spring. I hope our house will be ready to sell be early summer, then the search will begin in earnest. We moved to Picardie in 2002, 40 minutes north of Paris, without doing the research. After 2 years we couldn't stand it any more and moved to northern Italy, near Lake Garda. It was the complete opposite of where we had been living. There was nonstop social life, all year round good weather and the nearest ski slope 45 minutes away. We kept our house here and last year we were forced to move back due to work. There is ZERO social life here, the weather is pants and to go skiing means a long long drive south, I have never lived anywhere with so little going for it. I stand to do well out of the sale of my house, but I must finish adding the extra bedrooms and bathrooms to do so, that is why we haven't moved yet, but not a day goes by I don't dream of making my move.

Sounds almost like my post office. For years we had a woman working there and I posted loads of stuff no problem. 6 months ago she left and a new guy took over. Since then I have visited the post office 6 or 8 times and each time left with my package under my arm after being told it was either impossible to post the item or being quoted a price so high I would have to sell my grandmother to afford it. Each time I get in my car and drive to the next village and post the item there no problem. I don't know if the guy is a retard or just hates foreigners.

I know there has been several posts about these creatures in the past but couldn't find what I was looking for so I thought I better ask. For several years I have noticed the odd bad smell in some of our out-buildings. I guessed something was bringing back corpses to eat but it didn't bother me. However this winter my little friend has decided to move in upstairs to an area I am currently renovating. The midnight dancing with clogs on is annoying but the other night we had an unexplained bad smell in one of our rooms. I had a good look round upstairs, not much to see but found a few empty hens eggshells. So I have decided to evict our non-rent payer. As I understand they are a protected animal, however I mean him no harm, I just don't want to cohabit with him. I looked on ebay for a trap. On the French ebay someone is selling one for 140 euros (dream on) on the UK ebay there are many for sale between the 15 to 25 pound mark, however I think postage would again make them expensive. Does anyone know any shops where they can be bought at a normal price. I want to try to cage him and release him in a forest a few km from my house. If anyone can point me in the right direction I would appreciate it.

Many thanks for your replies. I am going to look into everwhere mentioned. My wife was sad after speaking to her parents on the phone on New Years eve, there were going out to let off fireworks in the snow. No one let fireworks off here, all the shutters were closed by 7pm as usual. There is also no snow, just grey and raining, which come to think of it reminds me of July and August [:(]

I spent 2 years living in the Baltic States of the former Soviet Union. Studded tyres are mandatory in the winter, then again they don't have any motorways so high speed driving not an issue, but for snowy conditions they are unbeatable. It was amazing to live in a country that could get over half a metre of snow overnight and everything operates as normal the next day. Not like the good old UK, 2cm of snow means buses and trains stop, schools close etc etc.

John Thankyou for your reply. Looking at the photos on your website it looks like the kind of place we want. I have sent you an email. Many thanks