Seanie

Not sure who you're replying to Claire :-)   Regards, Sean

dealing with house (apart from my own purchase s) - no I don't buy and I don't sell houses for others ! Negotiating generally, yes, selling other things, yes ! This all sounds very feeble but the desire to genuinely help people and be paid as a direct result of that help (at no net cost to the buyers) that drives me to try this ! My job was a quality control technicien for a company constructing motorways - l'A83, A87, A11, A10, A28 , A346, A7, A9, A89, A1, A26 -  I've worked on 'em all and loads of other stuff besides ! I used to drive 1300kms every weekend plus the kms I did in the week, there and back to be with my family so doing a few 100 kms in a week to visit houses on behalf of others is nothing ! I gave up the job to work this project, the website is coming along, the rest of what I need  (hardware) I've got now, the remainder is to finalise the website and take out my ads ! I expect I shall visit at least the major property fairs in the UK, Ireland and since I spent 4years in Holland (and speak it), I shall probably visit them too. I suspect that the Dutch buy much lower than me here but it might be worth a visit up there, I've still loads of friends who'll put me up and it'll be great to see them !

It is 175 per m² on the Vendée coast - example of two Vendées ? Supply and demand - no more - no less ! I don't believe in 'your' two France's ! It is a multi-layered society...atm ! You try to group us all together to agree with you  - "let's face it" and then add a question mark at the end "...would they ?" You're not convinced Teamedup, eh ? I think it's clear from Ragdolls' text that they were very satisfied with the negociations they accomplished, I don't think that they went further to find out more info (please come in and confirm/deny Ragdoll) and they clearly stated that had someone been availailable, they would have considered engaging them. It's not a question of whether buyers can or can't do their own work, it's a question of choice, as stated by Ragdoll, some buyers may simply prefer to have someone else do the work whilst they continue with their lives/responsibilities/obligations !  

Aha ! You see, bought but not to move into ! I've two friends in the UK who think like you, buy now for later ! Where did you buy again ?

Bobc - that's what they're quoting here - there is almost full employment here in North Vendée and there is a lack of rentable housing, particularly 3 beds. plus so people (French) are building and renting out ! They're getting quite entreprenant :-)

Thankyou Ragdoll for your constructive comments, for sharing your experiences and congrats with your purchase ! Clarkkent - who said households were moving here, I quoted the figures I'd heard of people BUYING here - it doesn't imply that buyers will move here ! Investments for later use or for renting out now or holiday homes or for retired parents or, or, or...there are many reasons (right or wrong) why people buy abroad ! Thankyou for your contribution btw :-) Maybe we should ask Ragdoll if they are quitting their jobs and moving across with their families ?

[quote user="Quillan"] No, I'm not treating buyers like morons but we are as a nation, nice people who don't want to make a fuss. Well I think you are wrong. A lot of Brits in my area see the locals a peasants, badly educated, bordering on being idiots and hold them in total contempt. To be honest from my experience it's usually the Brits that fit this description and not the French and I actively encourage Brits to go buy somewhere else, the further away from here the better.[/quote] Ohh, don't be like that - I understand we judge from personal experience but that means you are the unluckiest person over here with British neighbours :-) WHERE DO YOU LIVE-ish, so I may avoid your fellow compatriots ? I know one 'brit' who is a bore, doesn't make any effort to speak or learn French but the rest really enjoy mixing it with the French - that was part of being here - I personnaly have trouble understanding why anyone should come over here and then ignore and just despise 'the natives' ! I do understand why you should want 'em to buy elsewhere :-) Here, building land is 12-22 euros per m² !

I don't see the interest of the seller to negociate the agencies' fees  -they don't pay them so why should they care ? I agree that most (if not all) people who buy here have already at leats bought before. THEY believe that they are getting a deal, it's easy to compare prices here with over there and think that the 150m², delightful cottage here is a bargain at £140,000 when they can sell their 3 bedroom semi for £360,000 ! The fact that they could negociate and get it for £125,000 may well pass over their heads and also their ability to negociate in a (still) strange land where they are not completely at ease and easily over-awed ! No, I'm not treating buyers like morons but we are as a nation, nice poeple who don't want to make a fuss, and the price is cheap, the agency person is pleasant, speaking their broken but understandable English and they will help us to organise the utilities too :-) ! There is still loads of 'good stuff' in our area and land is always being released for building too ! As an aside, what do you all consider as the likely results of Frances' attempts to release capital in peoples' homes by allowing them to re-mortgage to spend how they wish ? We've had that phenomenon in the UK for several years now ! And is is that common for people (French or Anglo-Saxon) to buy a property, demolish it and rebuild new ??? Happy New Year and above all good health to all !

Thanks Will - and others ! All constructive and critical advice welcome. I read somewhere that this year 600,000 houses were bought by British and Irish and that it was forecast that a further 800,000 were expected to be bought in 2006 ! If this is a fraction of buyers a couple of years back........ Well, if they're on a very low budget (and I think we're talking of less than 150,000 euros are we not ?) - I agree with you, then my services may appeal as I will calculate them to suit such people ; less of a fixed fee, more as a % of money saved ! Why have they less of a budget - all the credit taken since a few years costing more - wish to pay it off.....no longer willing to live it up in a large French manor house but enjoy a simple life ? Why have / are people buying new in France ? The new laws to eventually force heritage properties to be sold after a fixed term, despite one or more children being against the sale (for whatever reasons) will liberate more properties ! This plus your forecasted drop in buyers, especially the well-endowed ones should see a burst of the bubble of price increases no ? Like we saw in the South East in the UK in the early '90s ? I don't think house prices will ever drop to those values of say, 5 years ago, but a plateau will endure for the next 18 months ! What say you ? And HAPPY NEW YEAR to everyone !  

We're all experts when we've been here and bought and if not experienced problems, we've heard all about them happening to others ! Err, a structural survey doesn't warn you of grazing/water or use of certain outbuildings' rights; it doesn't warn you of plans to build a by-pass at the end of your back-garden or a lotissement/supermarket  next door - is that what is meant by half the fun of not knowingabout the property you buying ? Must be a right laugh to spend hours on a DIY project that could have been avoided or paid for by money saved... I definitely do not consider most people who buy in France the dummies mentioned here, most I'm sure are forward thinking, intelligent people who've learned French and accepted that s**t happens and one must get on with it ! I do consider that not everyone thinks as you all appear to (you represent those who have bought and not with the intention of buying) and also that many people don't have the time to spend hours visiting everywhere and everyone - their 'fault' if you like but don't call 'em dummies :-) ! I expect them to pay for the privilege of having their 'johnny' do their groundwork for them and I am getting on with my scheme ! Is what I'm proposing so terrible for you to swallow ?   At least I'm re-learning English - thanks for the lessons !

So there is - my apologies (worse than l'Acadamie Française:-) - back to the point (s) !

What I'm proposing is not to avoid the buying fees but to reduce them ! How ? : a negociation on the selling price between buyer and seller (or in the most part - sellers' agents, whether it be a notaire or estate agent) in order to negociate, valid points must be found (agreed ?), hence a property search (similar to a survey) AND a research via the mairie and elsewhere to ascertain whether or not there may be complications with the house. This would also serve to determine whether prospective buyers wish to continue with their purchase of the house THEY THEMSELVES have found ! I don't want to offer a house-finder service - that's part of the fun and joy of owning and in any case is well covered by agents and also house-finding 'grannies' ! I will of course remain entirely independant and as I may base my fees upon money saved between the asking and eventual selling price, it is entirely in my interests to better serve the buyers ! Should this be scary to estate agents ? I hope not because the more confidence (and fewer stories of 'woe') that  there are in the market, the more buyers will buy which is good for everyone ! This may all seem very specific to you all and as suggested, serve a limited sector of the market - we'll see :-) Of course, estate egants and notaires could offer this form of research themselves but so far haven't !

It must be hard to keep to high standards of ethics when bills must be paid and most of, if not all ones' salary comes from the sales of houses ! I'm curious, what is the % charged by agents to sell, there is one near me charging up to 14% !

There is at least one agency near us charging 14% to sell your house - someones' raking it 'cos the boss has a new BMW X5 ! Chap has to pay for it somehow :-)  

No, I'm trying to see if there is job here - not create one, but perhaps we mean the same thing. Aside from that, I'm genuinely interested in prospective buyers' opinions - all that have been shared here are from those of us who've "been there, done that" etc. And before Internet and cheapie flights it was harder to buy a house and did require a good level of intelligence. Do you believe that the buyers looking acros the water now are of the same calibre as yourselves ? And (I repeat myself) even if they are capable, perhaps they don't want the hassle and are happy to pay to avoid that ! Grannies are only there to help after the sale, agencies will go out to meet prospective clients but still no-one is available, once a property has been chosen, for advice and help (if requested) just until the property is theirs ! I don't want to get into prperty maintenance / refurbishment - that's a minefield but I persevere and insist that currently, no-one is offering independant advice to buyers BEFORE the sale ! It's a shame that even one instance happens which sours the dream of someone ! Maybe I'm not being realistic - we'll see :-)   Still be nice to hear from propsective buyers or those who are only just thinking of buying - are there any on this forum ?

With respect then - in which area do you live ? I'm in the Vendée and I'm looking to cover the Grande Ouest but not the coast or large towns/cities ! It is rare though that I cross another 'Brit', something for which, I too am grateful - I came to France for France ! I do feel strongly but feel I can own a modest, HONEST living helping people avoid the traps and therefore integrate into French rural life so I'll pass on your idea of an association, I'm already involved in one where all the French bar one neighbour have deserted :-) ! Everything I have mentioned is out there at a price but that's the point - it's too expensive and the buyer pays all ! Considering that the average 'Brit' buyer near us is not paying much over 150000 euros and even a 90m² mushroom of 10 years is on the market for 170000+, it's no wonder that it is a buyers' market.

I am surprised at the level of animosity (at worst) and complacency (at best) shown by contributors to this forum towards future settlers from the UK and Ireland ! Most of what I've read is 'buyer beware'. I agree that any buyer is totally responsable and also has the choice to seek aid - no ? Isn't that free choice too ? But there is no aid available - yes there is no end to the means by which one can find a house, likewise finding the appropriate finances, in the UK or in France. There is no culture of property surveys in France (the newly introduced requirement of an asbestos and lead content doesn't count in my view) and as much of the property is rural, their arises topics unfamiliar with the average foreign buyer - water rights, rights of passage, new construction of roads/lotissements/parcs d'activities and long standing family feuds not always best resolved by notaires. I do not believe either that there is an 'anti-Brit' conspiracy from sellers but there appears to have been an assumption that 'the Brits' have 'loadsamoney' and the proliferation of 'English spoken here' ads. from Estate Agents and the growth of them (there were two in our local town, now there are five) indicates that this is where the sale of properties are directed ! Yes, buyers can buy from elsewhere, I would always reccomend that anyone first approach the notaire(s) in their chosen area, then there is buy direct from the seller but all this involves time and effort and everyone seems so busy earning their crust in the UK nowadays that time spent doing ones' homework (as suggested by many of you) costs money. I repeat, that I believe the new buyers don't want to make mistakes and are willing to pay to avoid those problems. Maybe that's why there is some little sympathy for them since I will assume that the majority that have contributed here have taken every measure to delve into the French culture and have found that even arising problems have turned out for the best in time. I know that my parents toured around several times a year for a couple of years before finding their house. I visited every notaire and agent during 4 weeks to find our house too. Consider what the implications are if people keep coming over and paying whatever the asking prices are and then finding all sorts of complications ! A lot of disgruntled foreigners trapped here by their finances won't help our image which contrary to the English press is a good one (Calais and the booze runs excepted) !

And so the attitude appears to be ' I'm alright Jack' ! No-one's done it to me but I am just one person who knows of several stories and has read of a lot more (in the English written French press and on a forum or two); there are frequently request from prospective buyers who ask which estate agencies to trust ! Maybe you'll say, I'm just a negative character but I'm sure there are more bad stories around.... I believe that the buying/selling rules in France are biased towards the seller (eg: buyer pays all costs, seller not obliged to disclose info unless specifically asked) and that estate agencies, however sincere have their clients interests at heart and to sell at the highest price AND it is the seller who cops the charges ! I can't change the system but would like to see independant advice offered to prospective buyers; everything is loaded against them. Yes, there is internet, yes people can learn French but what appears to have been said so far here is that those people who don't make an effort deserve all that can fall on their heads ! I've observed that one can have anything in the UK now, so long as one pays - these are the next style of people buying - no effort but willing to pay to avoid the mire. Am I wrong ?

For all those who were helped by 'their' estate agent - how much did you pay the agent for the right to sell you someone elses' property ? That might explain their eagerness to help you further by organising the utilities etc - is that not called 'providing better service than the competition' because houses are placed with several agencies at a time since it doesn't cost the seller a centime ? Also, buyers beware because when different agencies advertise the same house, it's quite often not at the same price (even on different ads. from the same agency) - something not entirely explained by 'frais inclus' or not included ! Call me a cynic but if someone walked in off the street and said 'I'd like to look at the house there advertised at 152000 euros' and it was advertised elsewhere in an updated ad. for 145000, would you expect the agency to say 'oh, but the new, reduced price is 145000' ? It IS happening out there !

Thanks all - I appreciate your candidness ! And I will type with less haste next time :-) Perhaps it is a dream (that won't work) but I feel that there are too many buyers being dealt short by estate agencies, who have been acting like frenzied sharks with the price explosions here in the West ! I know of three buyers who over-paid by between 26000 and 42000 euros - this could have been avoided with the right advice and perhaps someone to negociate ! It's not just the prices but checking out proposed construction nearby ! There are a lot of sensible people out there who have bought and who wish to buy who think of everything or think they have but the market is NOT the same as it was 10/15 years ago ! There are, clearly, honest agencies and the notaires can be trusted but one must ask the right questions and in the right places. There are also a lot of people who don't do enough homework, can't (or in many cases, surprisingly, don't want to) speak French - should these people just be left to 'tomber dans la merde' ? I've been living and working here for 8 years, my parents live here, my sister and her daughter too. I've married a French-woman and have a 17 month old boy who is attempting to be bi-lingual. I don't have to set up anything but don't wish to see anymore people get stitched ! I would be grateful to hear from any and all people who are still in the UK - what are your views please ? Thanks in advance for your participation. Seanie

I have had problems and I know secveral others who have had too. During the negociations, signing papers and then more typically, after the purchase so I'm curious and ask you some questions :   You have bought, have the intention to buy, would eventually like to buy a house in France - this could be your principal home, holiday home or an investment !   1) What problems have you encountered / do you anticipate in finding / choosing / buying your house ?   2) What (if any) assistance would you have taken or would like to have ?   3) Would you expect your assistant to negaoicate on your behalf, with or without your presence (and therefore possibly saving you expensive return trips) ?   4) What would you consider an acceptable fee for such assistance (note that you wouldn't need to seek a bi-lingual and therefore more expensive notaire (solicitor)) ?   5) Would you prefer any assistants' fees to be on a fixed rate or a % of money saved on the purchase price or as a combination of both ?   Any other thoughts or info or questions would be appreciated - give me your feedback please !   Thanks Sean