[Physically sick]

I was discussing the problems of binge drinking etc with friends the other evening. One is German and our general feeling is that the problem in Britain is the fact that licensing laws used to be very strict. It is less (I think) than 20 years ago, that we would go out for a drink with friends, and no matter what time we went, we were conditioned to have the statutory 3 drinks no matter what time we got to the pub. Even if we went for the last half hour we would get 3 pints in. My German friend believes, and I agree, that the fact that young people can drink alcohol in bars from 16 and go into bars at an earlier age, means that there is not this ambition to drink and get drunk in the same way as in Britain. These two friends have run local youth clubs and one of the clubs was for 12 to 18 year olds, but of course that is too great an age range and those at the upper end need something else. I don't know what it was like in Britain in the 50's and 60's, but I remember "Happy Days" on television and feel that it is a pity that there aren't places like the cafe in that where young people could go and relax and grow up to the pub life in a healthier way. French teenagers I've known have not been into alcohol the way that the British teenager is. To hear British teenagers speak you would think that alcohol was essential. As soon as they can they drink as much as they can and it obviously works through to night clubs.

My daughter was in Germany last week and went to a night club for the first time in her life. Apparently, one of the German girls was not allowed in because she was already drunk. Having said this, vodka and coke was 1 euro, so it was cheap enough to get drunk once inside. I don't know whether they stop people going in in Britain, but possibly people should have a card to allow them to buy so many drinks then stop! But people would only say it was a nanny state and if people want to get totally out of their heads, throw up everywhere and beat hell out of people they should have the right to do it!

Hopefully, over the years, a healthier attitude to use of pubs will develop once people get used to the drop in for a drink and then go about their other business system as in European countries. But while night clubs open so late and offer cheap drinks, things will never improve. I really hope my children won't get into night clubs as it really does worry me. I know of one girl I used to teach who had her drink spiked and was raped when she went to the loo, then another pupil had friends who were attacked with a hyperdermic needle. Isolated incidents maybe - but random incidents can happen to anyone.

I really think that if we all had ID cards this would help matters. I know people will say it is an infringement of people's rights, but it would make life so much better for the people who deserve freedom and to be able to live their lives without the risk from thugs etc. If everyone had ID cards, then night clubs and football stadiums and other places could prevent thugs, racists from going in. It would make everywhere a safer place.

[I'ts just hit me]

I agree that children make Christmas - although I think "whose" children has a lot to do with it. We are having a very quiet Christmas, with our own children who are about to be 17 and 14 within the next 2 days/3 weeks. But I wouldn't like to have to spend Christmas with other members of the family and their children. We have them round one evening around New Year, and that is as much as I can cope with. This year I wasn't very enthusiastic about Christmas, simply because it was so difficult to know what to give to them. But they were looking forward to it just the same and seem quite happy watching Lord of the Rings 3 on DVD at the moment and my husband has gone to bed because he has only had 4 hours sleep due to being on a night shift on Christmas Eve. Christmas has been great fun when the children were smaller, and now it's quiet, watching DVD's, preparing food and eating. Years ago, we chose not to be involved in family Christmases and I'm pleased we kept it quiet and were able to dedicate it to our children for years. It's the only time of year I can actually relax in my own home, since I work from home. It's the one time that I don't get phone calls.

I agree with those of you who say they don't oblige their children to spend Christmas with them. We had a very hard time breaking away from this when we first married. Having said this - I'll really miss my children when they don't want to spend Christmas with us anymore, but have to face the facts that it will happen as we did the same to our own parents. We all have our own way of doing things.

Merry Christmas to you all, anyway.

[Unwanted visitors!]

"Do they appear in the calendars coz if all the firemen in England looked like the ones I have seen over in France, I reckon lots more women would be setting fire to the house."

Not if you saw our Pompier friend - if he was on a calendar, it would be the calendar being burnt!

[Log in has gone funny!]

I was shocked too when I was asked for my password etc! But although my "favourites" page shows me as "logged in", I never was previously logged in, but on clicking on log in, it automatically logged me in. So,just now, I closed internet explorer and entered LF from the beginning, and sure enough, came straight through without having to ask for log in. Whether it is quicker for everything else, remains to be seen. I'll take a look!

[Help - Homework - what happens in France at Christmas]

We stayed with French friends in Normandy one Christmas. We ate dinner at the usual time for their evening meal - 7-8ish? We started with oysters and then had turkey with chestnut stuffing - can't remember what veg - I doubt if there was more than one, as there was never more than one vegetable at a meal there. I think we just had buche de noel as a dessert although it is quite likely that the usual cheese and fruit were brought out too. It was 26 years ago. The younger children aged 1 and 5 were put to bed and the rest stayed up. Didn't do anything special - just chatted and so on. Then at midnight, the little ones were woken up and presents were exchanged. I remember thinking it was a terrible tradition, because Magalie and Francoise just screamed blue murder at being woken up and didn't really enjoy the present opening. Then, we squashed into cars and drove to the grandparents house about 2km away, where their numerous other children and grandchildren also met. I can't remember how long we were there. It must have all been pretty late (or rather early morning).

It was one of the best Christmases I had spent up to that point in my life (I was 19 then), yet I did feel that it wasn't the best of procedures for children. I much prefer the waking up on Christmas day in England and going downstairs with the children to open the presents. We used to sneak them into the lounge and put them under the tree when they were asleep on Christmas Eve, but it became more and more difficult to do it secretly as they were awake so late. Now we can just put them there as they arrive during the time before Christmas.

We can't help bringing a little France into our Christmas though! The oven is switched on when we get downstairs and we have hot pain au chocolat with our coffee while opening presents.

Joyeux Noel a tout le monde!

[University courses in the French way of life]

The same rules should apply to all immigrants to a country. How far these should go, I'm not really sure. You can't expect refugees to be competent in a countries language if they have left in a hurry. But people who plan to move to a country over a period of time certainly ought to learn as much of the language as possible. On the language side of things, my niece is a classroom assistant in England and at the moment has to give several hours support per week to a child who has come to England (I forget where from - an ex-USSR state, I think). My niece has no knowledge of other languages, but does have patience with other people's children. Do foreigners arriving in France, whatever the nationality get this sort of help? It seems an expensive way of helping people to learn the language, but I would say that they should be given help because when people are separated by religion and culture, it causes misundertandings and unrest.

Also, regarding culture - all countries are different and you can learn a bit about it from afar, but the only way to understand it is to integrate.

We have students in England to learn English and therefore it should be possible in France to run similar schools and colleges for people of all nationalities to learn French. By mixing together they would gain a better understanding of each others cultures.

Where prejudices exist though, there isn't much hope - from either side!

With regard to religious differences - extremism needs monitoring where resentment of other religions exist. Those who incite violence must be arrested or deported (not very safe if they are just loose elsewhere though). If people keep their religions to themselves and respect other people's beliefs, that is the only thing which would help in that respect. Some attitudes are too intolerant though and that is from various religions.

[Making a trifle]

Oh, I agree Gay - blancmange is awful. But then, as I said, I don't like trifle and I'm not a pudding person (except things with very dark chocolate usually and absolutely NO cream).

Anyway, reading through this, I finally realised why the Italians call trifle Zuppa Inglese - English soup! It must be pretty slushy without the jelly if that is the traditional way.

No I wouldn't say my friends in France are tight fisted - I have lots of them in various places from various walks of life. But the majority of them do prefer to do their own traditional cooking and that usually means apple cake and tarte aux pommes if they decide to serve a dessert. The one friend that does buy things ready made, is actually German, lives in France and hates cooking. Another friend is just not into desserts. With one family I did have Buche de noel when I was there one Christmas. But on the whole, a dessert to most of my French friends is putting a huge bowl of fruit on the table.

[Campervans to hire]

Wow, that's a good idea - sounds expensive though - but you really should market the idea!

I've looked at the prices of renting these things and until the time comes when we can go out of season or we can buy one, I think we are going to have to stick to our trailer tent and not going as far as we would like to. I'd just like to be more mobile as it takes a few hours to set up and set down when camping and pulling a trailer also slows you down and means you can't go as far in a day. It depends where you are going - some places a week or 10 days is fine, but in many places it would be good to be able to move on after 1-4 days.

[Jean Claude Van Damme - worth £99 to see?]

Just thought I'd let you know that the aforementioned event was a huge disappointment to those who parted with their money! Luckily we didn't!

[Making a trifle]

I can't say I've come across any really good traditional French desserts either. I usually go for the Creme Brulee or Creme Catalan in restaurants. I had a very nice dessert in a restaurant this year, but it was nouvelle cuisine - hardly traditional. I always think the stuff in patisseries looks really sickly and I always wonder who eats it, because I've never known any of our French friends buy that sort of stuff except one who served a few eclairs and such like for gouter. The only desserts French friends have ever cooked have been the apple tartes and apple cakes - otherwise they always serve fruit. I did receive an excellent recipe from one of you last year for tarte aux poires et amandes last year, which may be brought out for the Soiree amicale on Friday (Alliance Francaise).

With regard to trifle - I've never seen it without jelly either. Personally, I can't bear it, so that tends to be my husbands department. He doesn't like sherry in it, and my Mum does, so she used to bring a sherry one with her at New Year. He also does it his Mum's way which is to use blancmange instead of custard. Have any of you ever had it that way? Can you get blancmange in France? I suppose it would be a mix for Ile Flottante. Not that I would ever want to make it - I don't like blancmange either. When I was a child, I could never understand the cheering when the jelly and ice cream came out at parties either.

Both French and Italian friends have taken back jelly and blancmange though! I'd rather have tiramisu any day!

[Lets be honest about this site]

No I still don't like the new format. Yes I still find it slow. Yes, I think less people are posting. I think part of this is due to the fact that you cannot reply direct to posts - or you can reply to them, but your reply could be 3 pages on and completely out of contexts by the time the reader gets to it and then they haven't a clue what you are talking about. I still cannot understand why the old system was thrown out. I believe that we have lost a lot of good people over this. The only good thing that has come out of it has been that there has been less temptation to me to break off from my work to look at it and when I do find time to visit LF, there is a lot less to read after as much as a week compared to when I used to visit it daily. Therefore, my visits are much briefer.

[Campervans to hire]

Thanks for the various site references - I've saved those in favourites. It does seem expensive - but it is about the same in Euros as in pounds for the ones I've seen to hire in England, so a third less really. The only drawback is that Avis don't seem to hire them from anywhere near Calais or other ports. But, it's given me somewhere to start my research. Thanks.

Yes, it is true that you are restricted more to some extent - i.e. either you have to leave a space on the campsite and go site seeing with the campervan or you have to leave the campervan there and go by public transport or bike. But that's similar to the restrictions if we were to go somewhere by train. I'd like to hire a campervan some time so that we could literally stay one night in each place and travel for about 3-5 hours per day and get much further afield. Actually, if I were to design a campervan, I'd design it so that you could drive a little car into the back of it, and take it around with you. Forget the shower room and toilet. If you could get a little car in the back and then reverse it out at destination and have beds that fold down from the side of the "garage", it could be a good solution. I have seen campervans with small cars towed behind, but if you are going to do that, you may as well have a caravan. It is my dream to one day own a campervan and just go round Europe for the whole 6 weeks summer holiday. We would really like to go further than we can with a trailer tent, because we have to allow for time to set it up (that can mean taking 2 or 3 days to get down to the south of France)or we have to spend extra on hotels. With a campervan, we could get well into Spain, Italy etc.

[Paperbacks in France, a mini-rant]

I think those Harry Potter Books you saw must be the posh versions, because we have several Harry Potter books in French and they were cheaper than the English paperbacks. I'll try to dig one out tomorrow to check price and printer, but they are in my daughter's room and she's asleep now. We did see some posh versions at my penfriend's house, which were very expensive.

[Campervans to hire]

Do you know of anywhere in France you can hire campervans? Camping and Caravanning Club now have a connection where you can hire a campervan from somewhere near Dover. But then you have to pay your ferry to get it across. I wondered if there would be a simpler solution to hire in France and whether it would be cheaper. To hire the ones I've seen would make a one week holiday cost as much as we currently spend on 3 weeks holiday. With a campervan we could travel so much further as we wouldn't have to allow time for setting up camp when we do our journeys and we then wouldn't have to spend nights in hotels during journeys.

Any suggestions please?

[Paperbacks in France, a mini-rant]

I still can't see where people are coming from on this topic, saying books are expensive in France. I have in front of me a paperback which cost 6E50 six months ago. Discworld, for example - same size book - are £6.99 over here. A Bernard Werber book - 6E10 2 years ago - Discworld were £6.99 even then. It seems to me that the average paperback is cheaper in France and even the more expensive larger paperbacks are the chiffres in Euros that they would be in chiffres in pounds - therefore one third cheaper.

Am I right in thinking though, that you cannot get offers on books in France? I try to get what I can in Waterstones and Smiths on 2 for the price of 1 or £3 off (on the hardbacks) and then get the rest from Amazon which is usually cheaper - although not always.

[Paperbacks in France, a mini-rant]

[quote]It's a disgrace, I tell you, a disgrace. How do they expect people to read if a paperback novel is 20 euros, eh eh eh? I ask you. The last Harry Potter was 28 or 30 euros. Ridiculous! And have y...[/quote]

I've never understood the pricing of books in France. Livre de Poche are very cheap compared to books in England and the French Harry Potter books we have are cheap ones. But have you also noticed how thin the paper is? Sometimes when I'm reading a book in French, I think that I've not much left to read because it looks so thin, then it takes ages to get through it.

But as you say, there are also these larger paper back books. I recently bought a Brigitte Le Varlet book from a second hand stall in Le Bugue. It's original price was 89 francs - quite a lot and the only date I can find on it is 1985. I think I paid about 6 or 8 Euros for it, and thought that expensive second hand. But I never can see any books by her in France normally, so I bought it anyway. I'd had one of her books previously from a second hand bookshop in Vaison La Romaine and that hadn't been cheap either - not for a 2nd hand book.

Anyway, I've just ordered Fontebrune from Amazon.fr Marketplace and it was only 2 Euros!!!! OK, so postage is 3.00, but still cheaper than from a second hand bookstall! The quality of the paper is better in these larger books. Now I look at it, although the book is bigger, I imagine it only has the same sort of number of words as the livre de poche books.

Isn't it annoying though that there isn't a standard size in books. You go in these libraries in castles etc and they have all the books lined up beautifully. But it's a real pain trying to get books sorted out onto shelves at home because of all the different sizes! It makes it impossible to keep books by the same author on the same shelves sometimes.

[Edith Piaf and other dead/tragic figures]

[quote]I think the cult is finally passing away. CDs of the greatest hits of Edith Piaf and other dead or tragic (or both) singers are regularly in the supermarket for about 4 euros. Doesn't suggest a hug...[/quote]

Thanks for that - I'll look out for some more Piaf CD's when I'm next over in France - I only have one. I'm not keen on many female singers but Piaf really sang from the heart. I love her pronunciation.

A Piaf album was the first present I gave to my husband - for his 18th birthday in 1977 - we'd only been going out together for a month and one of the first things we discovered was that we both liked Piaf. Perhaps we were born in the wrong era!

[24-hour supermarkets - please?]

This is going to sound really stupid now - I mean, I'm replying to earlier postings not the later ones. This is what happens when you can't get to the forum daily with this system.

Anyway, regarding 24 hour supermarket shopping. My husband is a shift worker and towards Christmas it is very convenient that he can go in the middle of the night and do our food shopping. Admitedly he can't buy booze in the middle of the night, but that can be bought earler.

With regard to Sunday opening - the advantage is that you can get fresh bread in England on a Sunday, and we do like a fresh baguette or other crusty bread for Sunday lunch with good cheese, pate etc. Also, again, it is useful with shift working.

At least the French do have the advantage that many places have Sunday markets and of course the Boulangeries are also open on Sundays. Smaller French shops such as Petit Casino are also open on Sundays which can be useful. Smaller French shops do carry a wider range of goods than small English shops and you can at least buy ingredients for a meal in most Petit Casinos and similar shops whereas you can't in corner shops in England. It is a pity that supermarkets have the power, but local butchers and suchlike don't display their prices (surely they should legally) so you don't know how much you are going to be spending. Also, meat in butchers in England has deteriorated because they are buying things loaded with water just the same as the supermarket do.

Our village now has a Tesco Express, and I must admit that I am pleased it is there as it often saves us going to the nearest town. Previously, we couldn't get much in the local shop, even though it is exactly the same shop - just badly run, previously.

I would love to live in a village that had a bakery, butchers, petit casino type shop for the veg etc. Then there would be no need to travel. Yes people are more mobile, but isn't it more the lack of time to go from shop to shop which is the problem. Also, the fact that small shops were expensive because they couldn't buy things at low enough prices. My mother-in-law had an off licence and she couldn't buy things in cash and carry as cheap as she could get them in supermarkets. No one wants to pay more for what they can get cheaper in a supermarket, especially if they can just call in when they are on their way home from work. It was a different matter when there were housewives who stayed in their villages and were able to buy everything where they were because they had the time.

Vive la boulangerie!

[Tomme (?) cheese]

I wouldn't say Tomme de Savoie is LIKE cheddar, but it is the nearest thing in flavour I had found before I discovered Cantal entre deux. But that is very iffy - sometimes I like it and sometimes it is more pongy and I can't bear it. I'd say Tomme de Savoie is not the same texture as cheddar but the flavour is similar. I can't imagine it would be successful for cheese on toast, but I could be wrong.

[Embarrassing English snobs in France]

[quote]And as my father used to say, "You think your body everyself 'cos your mother's got a mangle."Not you Jill. I'm not sure where that came from, just popped into my head...[/quote]

Not sure I understand what you are saying - but Oh, Dick - I wish I still had a mangle!

When we first got married, we used to soak the washing in the bath and then haul it round to the laundrette. Then someone sold us a washing machine with a mangle. That was around 1979 - most people had automatics! How I regret the day that we were offered a twin tub and I said goodbye to the mangle! Well I wouldn't be without the automatic, but a mangle would be very handy for handwashed stuff. Mind you, it was a bit hair raising the time the clothes I was wearing got caught in it and I had to reach for a bread knife to cut myself free! Exciting times!

[Jean Claude Van Damme - worth £99 to see?]

Thanks for these comments. Sounds like he is a Schwarzenegger equivalent then! Duh!

As I suspected. I don't know why the Karate club are making such a big thing of it. I'll certainly pass your comments to my son.

You have reasurred me - thanks! I feel less guilty about not letting him go. I'm suffering from guilt syndrome at the moment because he wanted to go on a school trip to Berlin and we hadn't let his sister go on that one either. It is £289 for 4 days and they only stay in a hostel. It's harder to say no to him when there are both of these things as being possible, but his sister is going to Berlin for a week on work experience/language exchange and it's at least £100 cheaper for a week. She's doing AS level and as she'll be mixing with Germans it does seem more worthwhile than a normal school trip. In 3 year's time he will be given similar opportunities.

[Smoking and Obesity]

Tying together a number of points made to make another. If people can be prosecuted for using mobile phones whilst driving (quite right) and drink driving, and if restaurants etc are going to be no smoking (at last) then it should be possible to prosecute people who smoke in their cars for safety reasons (as with mobile phones) and also for the health risk to others in the car. It really appalls me to see people driving around smoking with children in the car and also people smoking in their houses with children around. When you work with children, you sometimes notice the smell so strong on children, you almost think they have been smoking - although with 3 year olds this becomes doubtful!!

As regards freedom though, I will feel more inclined to go out to pubs when smoking is banned completely as there is no advantage to sitting in a no smoking area when there is no wall between the two. I hope it will encourage people to give up smoking. But I think it will just mean people either breaking the rules (as smokers often do in no smoking areas) or people smoking on the street where there will be piles of fag ends and it won't be pleasant for people passing by. I still feel that smoking should be banned in shopping centres - even in shopping streets as I saw lit cigarettes hovering dangerously close to my children's faces in their pushchair days.

So, I do feel that it would be appropriate to establish a closed off room in pubs where smokers could go, and possibly some special pubs for people who really cannot cope with discomfort of popping out for 5 minutes (compared to the hours of discomfort everyone else has had to put up with for years.

Last night we went for a meal and I forgot to ask if they had a no smoking area. It was early and there was only one other table taken but we were put next to it. After his meal, the man lit a cigarette and promptly lit another, which he left in the ashtray, smoking when he went to the loo. Then, mercifully, he left - but not before wiping his nose on the table cloth - lovely!

Now, one of you said you knew no smoking restaurants in France - wonderful - I've not found one which even has a no smoking area yet!

Incidentally, I did smoke in my youth and now I'm ashamed of what I put other people through! But I did only smoke because if I had a cigarette, other people's smoke didn't make my eyes and nose itch so much. Sort of homeopathy! I never liked the taste nor the smell!

Incidentally, on obesity and exercise - I dance for between 10 and 20 hours a week and it doesn't stop me from being fat, so exercise doesn't necessarily help. Also, I do agree that children should be encouraged to do sports of some kind, but perhaps if there was more choice in school, more children would be encouraged to take up a regular sport which they liked, rather than being forced into playing sports that they hate and which just reinforce their hate of sports. My son does Karate, but he detests the sports they do in school. My daughter dances and also detested the sports done in school, although she was happy with Gym/dance and trampolining. But most of the time they had to play football, basketball etc and they really do not enjoy ball sports.

[Embarrassing English snobs in France]

[quote]>>>And this got me thinking about other non-U things and all those tell tale words that supposedly give away a person's background and how they're invariably words that are used in French such as parf...[/quote]

"My pet hate is the word 'lounge' (and even worse the aussie 'lounge room' )

I think its lavatory, not loo"

I've never been sure about this one as I was brought up with a lounge and my husband was brought up with a living room. Yet our mothers were brought up round the corner from each other and my husband's grandmother was "well to do" in the eyes of my Mums family. Yet, living room conjures up the old fashioned idea to me where everyone cooked, ate, bathed, washed and dried clothes etc in the one room and a lounge seems to me a place where you sit to relax, but don't use it for eating etc. I don't like Lounge Room either, but lounge seems normal to me - although my kids seem to have been influenced more by their fathers language, which surprises me since I spend more time with them, or certainly did when they were small.

As for snobbery in France, I remember one family I stayed in where Madame asked me if I liked their "Villa" which seemed a very snobby way to describe their home - although it was very nice. Another day, she said she didn't like her sister in law - "elle est snob", but I can't say I particularly noticed!

As for where people wash their hands etc, times have changed anyway - you do it where it is most practical. In our old house, it would have been the kitchen sink, but now we have a downstairs loo, so that seems more practical because it's away from food etc. Oh, and Madame's mother threw a wobbler because I said toilette rather than cabinet or WC. Not the done thing, apparently!

[Creme fraiche]

We use it quite often too, but I do try to use the low fat sort. I quite like it with fajitas if not using sour cream with them. A favourite recipe of ours is to cook leeks in stock then wap in ham, cheese and creme fraiche and serve with pasta. It is definitly essential in mash and good on jacket potato too. Friends in Normandy seem to throw it in everything. I particular remember anguilles, fried in butter then creme fraiche wapped in. Quite a few of our French friends have said they like epinards a la creme but have never served it to us. So we improvised and just cooked spinach and mixed in creme fraiche - it is delicious. Also, those raclette pizza's often have creme fraiche, so if I have raclette cheese left, I sometimes make raclette pizza. Again, that is improvised from what I've eaten in a French pizzeria.

Mmm!

[Jean Claude Van Damme - worth £99 to see?]

Just who is he, anyway? I'm posting this here because I seem to think I may have seen the name on this website, somewhere, but assumed he was just some French actor in films I didn't know. However, my son recently came home from his Karate class (in England) saying that there was going to be a 4 hour seminar by Jean Claude Van Damme at a cost of £99. The carrot to encourage everyone to go to it is that they will get graded to the next belt earlier. Or perhaps this man is a famous authority on Karate and they will get a lot out of it - I just don't know. I understand he has been in 32 films, but I've not heard of any of them and the majority of them were never shown in cinemas, apparently. Are these films in French, American, Flemish, or what? Someone said he is Belgium's answer to Scharzenegger - even more off-putting! My son is getting criticised by his teachers and peers for not knowing who he is and because we said that £99 is far too expensive and we are not prepared to pay for him to go. As a dancer/dancing teacher, I was keen to see Nureyev dance - but I wouldn't have paid anywhere near £99 to see him. I believe that when I did see him dance, the year before he died, I paid less than £20 and it wasn't that long ago. In my field, there are classes available with well known dancers/choreographers, but not at £99. I think we paid about £20 for classes with Wayne Sleep. So, just what has this Van Damme done which makes the Karate world think he is worth paying £99 for? Apparently it is £45 to go and watch him. I would not be prepared to pay that to watch a theatrical production, so again, that seems ridiculous to me too. Would you pay £99 for a 13 year old to do that? Is it like asking if you would pay £99 for a 13 year old to do football training with Beckham in which case I wouldn't be prepared to spend that sort of money on that either. Very few of my pupils were prepared to pay to have a class with Wayne Sleep, for example, and that was much cheaper.