Poolguy
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Posts posted by Poolguy
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[quote user="Théière"]
There is some suggestion that the two chemicals together work well but just adding unscented bleach from a brico 18 euros for 20 litres would have done just as well and may cost less than water and algicde.
Now why didn't your Chlorine generator work properly in the first place?
[/quote]
As well you know my dear Teapot
Asking self evident questions will always provoke the most obvious answers...' because they don't really work at all', is one answer.
'Because they are not an automatic system but a semi automatic system requiring intervention from time to time to correct the inevitable shortfall in sanitising chlorine production, which clearly wasn't there in the case of our unfortunate poster' could be another answer.
‘Because the pool is being operated contrary to the Dept health norm (DDASS) where it is absolutely forbidden to use salt electrolysis in a 'public pool', primarily for the above reasons’, could be another reason.
We agree naturally, that sodium hypo chloride (javel) is by far the most cost effective sanitizer, far more so that the cost of replacing the water. Coupled with an exemplar filtration media (in my case Zeolite) is the most cost-effective maintenance regime especially when paying guest are involved.
So our day continues and into another pool season where doubtless this argument will again be exercised with the same group of diehards (in denial) defending this outdated, polluting and ineffective technology. Ho Hum
Andrew
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The wet vacuums are readily available from nearly any Location Outils.
However the Sand siphon is a patented device only available at certain places. If you PM me your dept then I'll send you information on the nearest one. Naturally you will be replacing your sand with zeolite (I am sure)
Andrew
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[quote user="UlsterRugby1999"]
I'm sorry to visit this old chestnut again BUT - I need to ask a few questions of you wise owls.
Last year (2009) we had a thread discussing solar water heating. It was a great thread and loads of very useful information came out of it. It is something that I will be opting for at some point in the future but not just now. Funds and all that.
During the discussions, I had indicated that our electricity consumption was very high and I suggested that our hot water use might be seriously contributing to the high consumption. Some of you guys had looked at this with me and suggested various routes to follow and tests etc. I have been trying a wee test this week to see how things might work out.
Using the HC charging rate for electricity (21:45 through to 5:45) only to heat our chauffe'au (plus 1 hour during the day time) we have been able to reduce our weekly Kw consumption by an average of 105 Kw. I know this figure cannot be simply multiplied by 52 weeks to give a reasonable annual saving but lets assume that we do so and use only 80% of the total. This would give us an annual reduction in consumption of 4368Kw. At a cost of 0.0839 (HT) this would save us circa 438.1€ (TTC) per annum. No mean sum.
Here's the BUT - we never get to the end of a day without running out of hot water. During the test, no dishes were washed except one dishwasher load which uses cold water anyway as is the case for the washing machine. The usual mode of a half full sink of hot water to wash a few knives and mugs etc didn’t happen. Showers were kept to the shortest time possible and so on. Our tank is 250 litres and the unit is heated (I believe) by a 3Kw heater. My 84 year old mother-in-law has twice tried to run a bath and the water has been tepid at best. Now I'm not quite flavour of the month. [:(]
So, with the best intentions in the world (and of my pocket too) I have to revert to leaving the Chauffe'au on 24 hours a day.
Even with the solar syste
What are your thoughts folks? All advice, as always, gratefully appreciated.
[/quote]
So you've arrived at the point of enlightenment. Bravo that man. (No disrespect intended but I want to make a very serious point.)
It should not need a concerted effort on your part to analyse the consumption of your existing electric hot water system, in order to come to the realisation that you should be doing all you can do with the energy which is available to you for free. It should be a faite completé or a 'no brainer' in the modern vernacular. The economics of installing solar hotwater heating do not need to be proven, that has been done and redone so many times that it should part of common consciousness now I would have thought.
By the way, solar thermal (heating your domestic water) is by far the most economical and most successful of the renewable energy measure available to a private individual with modest needs and modest means. Can you imagine a world where you have no choice .... I mean that it is obligatory to install a solar panel on the roof to provide for this need - hot water. Well, you may not believe me but I think that that is a reality in the not to distant future. If that is true ( or even if it isn't) I cannot quite understand the reluctance for most people to adopt such measures, simple as it is, tired countless times, proven countless times, what is the hold up. What's the agonising decision, why procrastinate? (and NO its NOT TOO expensive.)
This idea though modest, is probably to single most available and most effective thing that any of us can do to contribute to the now urgent effort to reduce carbon emissions - (oh dear did I say a dirty word). Sorry for that but it does need to be said and no matter whether you agree with the whole Copenhagen Summit thing or not, it will not go away and soon the choice will be taken from your hands. I notice that this subject is glaringly omitted from this forum. No one is really talking about it, not in terms of installations anyway - why could that be.
Equally, those people on the previous thread who were agonising over the search for fuel oil - well take comfort, that problem too will be solved for you very soon – soon there will not be any!
If you need information on how the integration of a solar system is achieved to your specific system, there is a lot available, more than 250 brands, and thousands upon thousands of willing installers waiting, pipe wrench at the ready to dash round and 'do the business'. So I suggest, have a go, believe just a little bit more, see what is happening around you, Solar panels can help you, other people are doing it and they will certainly help to assure our future - this is the bit that you CAN do.
By the way, if you get a heating engineer to design your system then there is no reason that you should run out of hot water, no matter that MIL (84) wants a bath - its doable. So for goodness sakes ...... just ask.
Andrew
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[quote user="Bugbear"]Can anyone advise the best way to remove the old sand from a filter without causing damage to the internal plastic filter pipes. thanks.[/quote]
I presume that you are changing your filter to Zeolite which is a good move, and there is a 'sand siphon ' available for that purpose on day rental. Should empty most filters in under 30 minutes.
Andrew
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[quote user="Jeff.B"]Thanks Nick, I take your point - but Redwell are claiming that for every 600W electricity input, there is 1980W heat delivered. Is that just over 300% efficient? You sound like you know about heating - do you have any advice/suggestions for what route to take to heat a 400 cubic metre stone house as cheaply as possible? Cheers Jeff[/quote]
Jeff
Is that ...'cheaply as possible'.... meaning, cheap to install, or cheap to operate your heating system????
Not really the same thing, Electric my very well be the cheapest to install but it isn't anywhere near the cheapest to operate - that place is comfortably occupied buy a combination of solar and wood chipburner. If you are into the thinking on the subject its plain to see that (especially with house the size of yours) that the running cost will dwarf the installation cost in a very short space of time.
So, as has already been suggested, insulate the hell out of every part of the house and then choose to either pay now and nothing for ever after or, pay less now and for ever more pay even more than you can ever imagine.
Andrew
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Bubbles
Your liner can only be offered after the pool has been measured. Desjoyaux pools appart from other horrors are often free form with a continuous curved bottom which is another storey compared to the much easier rectangle with a flat bottom. So the liner price could vary more than 50% even with the same weight material. Best get in contact so that more information can be gained and advice offered.
Yes fiberglass can be resprayed but it depends on why there is 'rust stains'.
For the original poster, I concur with all that Teapot and chris says and can add that the temperature needs to be over 15°c for a substantial part of the day to make it happen, otherwise its a non starter. The season has nearly finished here on the west coast and will not start again untill at least April. It take 2 -3 weeks to get a liner made and a day to install if everything goes well.
Contact me if you need further help.
Andrew
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Northender
I've sent you a PM
Andrew
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Cherries
I've sent you a MP
Andrew
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John Ross
Sorry I don't have time to explain the physics or debate the efficacy of manufacurers theoretical performance figure 's.
Here is the an extract from the Navitron website explaing the calculation to heat exchanger performace figures (good luck)
If you wish to explore this further, the following equations may be of help in calculating the heat exchanger performance:
The rate of heat transfer Q = U x A x dTmean = kW
U (kW/m2 K) = 1/Rt and Rt = total thermal resistance (m2 K/kW)
A = surface area (m2)
dTmean = True mean temperature difference (K)
The temperature of both the primary (Th) and the secondary (Tc) fluids will generally vary as they pass through the heat exchanger and you need to know the true mean dT which is not the same as the dT between the boiler/solar flow and the pool water. The heat transfer will also vary depending on whether it is a parallel or counter-flow heat exchanger and you may need to calculate the log mean temperature difference (LMTD) depending on the resulting dTmax and dTmin.
For a parallel flow heat exchanger dTmax= Th1-Tc1 and dTmin= Th2-Tc2
For a counter flow heat exchanger dTmax= Th1-Tc2 and dTmin= Th2-Tc1
Th1 / Th2 = Primary (boiler/solar side) inlet/outlet temp.
Tc1 and Tc2 = Secondary (pool side) inlet/outlet temp.
LMTD dTmean= (dTmax - dTmin) / In(dTmax / dTmin)
If dTmax=dTmin, then LMTD dTmean = O, so therefore the arithmetic mean temperature difference is used(ed Navitron.org.uk)
Andrew
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John Ross
No I can't give you what you want unless you can tell what is 'typical'.
I can however give you 'theoretical' energy tranfer rates at specific temperatures, - I'm not sure that is what you want.
Akvaterm - 35lt/min 90kw @ 50°c 25°C exchange over 750mm
Bowman - 48lt/min 33kw @ 50°C 14°C exchange over 572mm
Navitron - 54lt/min 19kw @ 50°C 8°C exchange over 440mm
Note that the last two exchange flow rates refer to the solar circuit/ whereas pool flow is nominally at 190lt/min
I hope that this helps more (although I don't yet see how it will help you)
Andrew -
John Ross
Flowrates
Akvaterm heat exchanger - 35lt/min
Bowman heat exchanger - 48lt/min
Navitron Plate Exchanger - 54lt/min
Hope that is what you wanted
Andrew
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Hi John Ross
I'm certainly interested in your experiment even though, as a group of products I know very well the performance of the heating system you are trying to construct.
Your question of comparative analysis although a good one, is very difficult to answer as pool heating depends on so many variables. Firstly no 2 pool are the same even if they are built by the same person in the same way; location and things like exposure are very important, as 60% of the heat losses from a pool are from transpiration from wind chill and evaporation from radiation. So from a pool based result there is little I can offer you.
However as an internal system performance based analysis, there are a few numbers which are easier to extract; such as heat exchanger. Now in your system, the whole array is a heat exchanger as you are running pool water directly though it. The fact that its built out of Polypropylene (or another plastic) is its primary problem as this material is extremely poor at exchanging heat, hence you need a considerable area of 'mat' to get any significant temperature exchange, between 60% and 100% of the pool area in fact. Improvements to that system are to be found in the choice of material rather than flow rates or other design.
Modern metal heat exchangers are not operating on the same idea but rather bringing together 2 separate circuits to undertake the exchange in a metal cylinder (I am sure that you know this). There are various forms ranging form the stainless steel versions, which can boast only moderate performance of about 6-8°C, exchange over its length up to the copper/nickel composites which can double that at up to 15°C over their length. However, recently released is a version that can improve that yet again as an exchanger inside a pressure vessel, promising performance approaching 25°C exchange or better.
None of the technologies above can match your frugal economy however, but I'm supposing that you want to compare performance and price in some sort of cost: benefit analysis. From my position, unless it’s a pleasure to tinker, I'm thinking that most pool owners want pool heating as efficient as possible and trouble free as possible. Certainly that's the messages I get from the market place. 'Make my pool warm enough to swim when I want - that's all I want;'
As you know, I am sure that none of the above is possible without an effective insulating pool cover. Minimum R rating should be 0.075 (kw) there are available up to 0.13 (kw) at present. Be advised that the majority of the ‘bubble’ summer covers available in France do not reach even the basic standard for insulation. This means that gains made throughout the day cannot be maintained and so more added the next day doesn't increase the result (cool pool)– with an effective thermal cover the contrary is true.
Andrew
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Herbert
You are wrong, the Credit impot is give only on the apparatus which produces the renewable energy. That's what the article you linked said, thats what the act says, and that what my Mother in law says.... she is a Tax Commissioner.
If you make a claim incorrectly, from advise from these Brico's or whosoever then the Direction (Dept) have a team to analyse your claim (they know the prices) and they will come looking for a their money back - don't mess with the tax Dept, you'll regret it.
The firgure I quoted (€200) relates to the SOLAR PANEL OFFER LISTED IN THE TOPIC WHICH IS LISTED AS WORTH €398 so the rebate is worth less than 50% of that. If you purchase is a 'pomp a chaleur' the rebate would be less than 50% of it value and so on. The ancillary equipment is NOT INCLUDED, the installation is NOT INCLUDED.
If you still don't believe me then so be it, I don't care, do what you want.
Panda
Why on earth would I take the time to post on a subject I am not interested in - really!!!! Do you ?
Andrew
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Canard
That sort of sum will buy a ver nice system indeed, but as I said you don't have to spend it all at once if you dont want too - start modest and add to it as you find out what you need for where you live.
The heat delivery system is required no matter what heat source you choose, so lets not count that for the moment.
I cannot give you a budget only a qualified installer can do that after a survey of your house. But to give you a yardstick my house is 250m2 and my system cost a great deal less than you have budgeted.
BIG A
Who ever has been tell you about solar panels doesn't know enough to be worth the listening too. Solar panels are made of Glass, copper, stainless steel, I can't see anything there that couldn't last for the rest of my lifetime (I hope its more than 20 years), like I said the only moving part is a circulator!!!!! Where's the problem in believing?
Andrew
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Panda
Got it completly wrong.... very poor advice.
Take the time to read the Act before you offer your views, the tax department are not stupid.
Andrew
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Yes, its a VERY basic solar DHW system and if your living near Marseilles then it will probable do a decent job.
I cannot tell for sure but the Tubes look like 47mm x 18 which will yield about 6kw on a sunny day with a 300lt cylinder with 50mm insulation that would mean that you will get enough hot water for showers for a family of 4 in the summer months. But as the tank has so little insulation and the power in the panel is so low that, during the winter in Southern France it will struggle. If your intention is to install it in Central or Northern France, according to my reckoning, then its 'luke warm' at best, and in winter .... well your going to need electric.
Solar is about 2 main principles that this offer doesn't really address. The first is power input, For Southern France to heat that amount of water I would recommend at least 12kw and the further north you go the more that figure should rise. Then the tank will loose over 1°C per hour so that means that the heat that you are getting isn't staying put till you need it. So at least 100mm of insulation on the tank is a standard to ensure that the system does what its supposed to do.
If anyone is tempted to go for offers like this from the Brico chains be advised that YOU WILL NOT GET A CREDIT IMPOT. To qualify for the Rebate, the equipment and the installation MUST be on the same facture from a Qualisol registered installer and its only the Panel which is rebateable(worth about €200). If it happens that they promise you otherwise then it will only mean that the tax office will come looking for repayment of the rebate later on, and you have no redress to Brico marche for lying to you.
I hope that this has made a few realities a bit clearer
Andrew
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Canard
Solar heating systems rely on a considerable storage vessle, so that you can collect energy when its available and use it later as you want it. So its big (as big as you can afford), and well insulated, you can connect any other heat source to it as well.
As far as the solar component is concerned, add as many panels as you like, start with a few if you want, add more later, or create a whole system from the off. Point is, that once you've bought it and installed it, then its free for life (virtually).
Unlike the other systems you are contemplating, solar has no moving parts, (except for a small circulating pump worth about €100). So in ten years, it works the same as when it was new, that is definately not the case for the other electric machine based systems which will need to be replaced at some stage - so you pay all over again as well as in the mean time, you pay.
So the budget can be of your own design, and you can put a secondary system in to cope with the time when there is just not enough solar radiation to be had - say woodchip gasification. Or it could be anything that you prefer, but it certainly doesn't have to do much work because the solar is coping for 90% of the year.
Its pretty simple, you can see what I mean with my system is seen here. www.poolguyenergy.com, its the graphs day by day since it went in.
Hope that make the point clearer, as there are not to many folk that know about this and that's a shame because its worth a look.
Andrew
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Yes
I saw it on the 8.00 news and I think that there was an article in 'The Connexions' as well.
Andrew
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If you've got the chance to use underfloor heat distribution then why not make a component of that heating spec an evacuated tube Solar System . You'll save a lot of money over its life time (indefinate) and the heat pumps can be smaller spec and not work so hard(therfore a longer life-)
Solar works for heating as well as hot water, its just a question of the willingness to consider and design it into a project like this.
Electricity prices are rising by 20% in the next 3 years and will continue upward so if you Electric only then you'll pay and pay and pay. So heat you house by the sun, last I heard the price is still 'nothing' and will continue so for the forseable future.
Andrew
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Polly
I think that you will find that the rules still apply, even though only one family is using the pool, because they are being charged for the priviledge - albeit that there are somewhat abridge version and its fairly certain that the DDASS will never visit for a test.
My remarks pertain mainly to a disgruntled client who might the seek redress for getting an infection from the pool. For if tested in court, then your pool owner will struggle to deny responsibility with the system he has. It can happen so easily and will certainly be brought to his attention by his well healed clientelle.
Good luck
Andrew
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[quote user="Polly"]Thanks for the replies. Further info :
12x6m flat bottom pool with steps, installed by a previous owner of the property who left no instructions for the current owner who is flying by the seat of his pants and trying to learn as he goes! He called us in to help, so OH did practicals and I have been googling.
As the property is let at the top end of the holiday market a green pool is not good news.
Peroxide remanent in use
The automatic doseurs for PH and remanent don't work, doses are added manually
The filter is one of those vertical cylindrical cartouche fibreboard types, which is cleaned out regularly (there is a second exchange one)
There is no sump, and no means to hoover to waste unless you set up a siphon (tediously slow)
The jets and skimmers are at one end, as in a Desjoyaux 'pipeless' system. When the filter is clean it works OK i.e. the jets shoot out the length of the pool
[/quote]I would certainly make it clear to the new owner that this pool is in NO WAY suitable for a let Property. As it is a public pool there are standards which apply and from the sound of it this system has never and will never conform to the norm.
I suggest that there is a radical refurb necessary before it could be suitable for use by paying customers, otherwise the risk of litigation could result from guest contracting infections as a result of swimming. Its way too risky as, should it happen then there would certainly be no defence what ever against a claim whether legitimate or flippant.
Andrew
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Deja Vu
Careful Teapot ole chap....
We do not know if the poster has a Peroxide remnant in which case the chlor choc will have not effect what so ever.
I suggest a test regime first.
Andrew
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I suggest that you use TUNG OIL as it it the only natural oil that will polymerize hard, all of the other with plastify which is not as durable.
Andrew
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[quote user="Wilko"]
Hello all
Could do with a little help here.
Background; I bought a Solarmatt to heat the salt water pool, and it works very well...........at heating the pool. I have no connection with this company. Unfortunately this brings a host of problems I have not previuously encountered. My salt content is too low even thought i have added 150kgs of salt over the past 2 weeks...........I assume that this is because the water temp has been upto 34 degrees. I have now 90% bypassed the solarmatt and the temps is 28 degrees. PH 7.3 and salt 4.3 with the pump running for 16 hours. This is all my magic box of tricks tells me. I have black mould growing a little by the water line and although the look of the water is acceptable i know it could be clearer and more sparkling. Do I need to buy a bit of kit to give me more readings eg cynauric acid (whatever that is) and if I do what do people suggest ?? Also what do I need to do to stop having to buy copious quantities of salt...............short of buying a salt mine ?
I would be most grateful for any advice...............but please keep to laymans terminology as technology not a strong point.
Happy swimming
Wilko
[/quote]
I presume that the black deposit is the water line fungus that feeds on the oils deposited there after swimming and not really to do with your water chemical balance. In which case a water line cleaner, biodegradable if possible would be appropriate - I suggest Aqua Clean as it will not impact on your water quality.
I presume that the measurement '4.3' for salt is in Parts Per Hundred giving you 4300ppm which should be a enough for most electrolysers to make chlorine. As you probably know 34°c is way too high for a swimming pool liner and will surely invalidate the warrantee.
Andrew
Cheapest Solution
in Swimming Pools in France
Posted
Polly
Thanks for your analysis and clarification.
As most of us know there are, as you suggest, boudaries to the definition of 'piscine public' under the DDASS rules, however I can tell you that sitting across the desk from the DDASS inspector responsible for dept 17, I learn that these are not necessarily his view point and that this year ALL registered gites (with pools) in his region will be inspected for water quality. Just how he will do that I do not know, perhaps they have had an injection of resources to manage this mamoth task.
And further it was he that coined the assertion that 'system du sel c'est interdit absolument' and that 'infractions (du norm) le piscine c'est fermme'. So if you want to debate the borders and applicable law then check with your locale Inspectorate DDASS I suggest for its they who decide and not us. For me, I see no distinction between a pool where a fee is charged for its use albeit by one family and any other public pool. Water quality should be fit for purpose to an accepted norm, and as it is currently standing, Salt electrolysers are nowhere in that norm.
If you think that its worth taking the risk of inadequatly sanitised water for your own family, that is your own affair but its quite another thing to risk the health of another family who pay you to use a facility where there lies a strong chance of contracting an infection, just because of a misguided notion that your pool is safe because the water is blue. If anyone with a salt system which was left to its own were to test their water (with an photometer) 3 times per day throughout the season and make a record of the results then I am certain they would discover a trend showing that their water chemistry was nearly never within the required boundaries. The most dangerouse period being during the hottest part of the day (heaviest use period), meaning that it would then take the system to rest of the day and night to catch up - meaning that the pool is unsantitary during that time. Its that simple and that is the main reason why the DDASS do not accept it. There is a list of accepted systems and these are there because they do work - all the time.
Cheers
Andrew