Poolguy
-
Posts
1,045 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Never
Posts posted by Poolguy
-
-
Significantly, this year follows a more typical trend for the weather, or at least the rainfall - or rather lack of it.
Water from the heavens when it does come, brings along with it, mineral and chemical contaminants from the atmosphere, some of which is from human activity but most is just from the environment.
So when it comes to the summer and there has not been enough rain to swell to the reservoirs nor enough to irrigate the crops, some strange thinks start to happen. That is, this year it seems to be stranger for pool water quality than for a long time.
Pools in western France have been eating Bicarbonate soda, OK that is not so strange and can be simply explained, but I've now presided over the 4th pool with significant Phosphate and nitrate contamination - I mean that some of them have been off the scale, more than 20mlg/lt. Inevitably, the pools are green in every case and do not respond to normal levels of chlorine or even standard Choc dosing. That is not normal.
So my remarks are aimed at pool owners who are facing a greenie where there is no rational explanation - that is, that your normal chemical levels are correct (all 4). If this is true in your case, its possible that you are among those to receive agricultural contamination which will cause the algae to grow up to 1 million times faster and appear to be Chlorine resistant.
[img]http://i584.photobucket.com/albums/ss285/andrewhenderson/Pools/Phosphatetest.jpg[/img]
Vile on the left, Municipal drinking water 0.3mlg/lt, phosphate
Vile on the right, Pool water nearly 2mlg/lt, phosphateTo fix it you have choices but they are far fewer than normal owing to the ban on refreshing pool water levels - water is scarce so you cannot go the easy route and change the water to reduce the concentration of phosphate and nitrates. As they are not metals you also cannot sequest, so we are into the territory of SUPER CHLORINATION. To do this I strongly recommend that you choose an expert with special and accurate testing equipment as not everyone can measure over 10mlg/lt of Free chlor, much less, nitrites, nitrates, or phosphates. If you try it yourself there will be a number of risks that will challenge you.
First, how much, the contaminant has to be identified and then measured so that sufficient chlorine added to reach ‘break point’; That is, the point when the oxidisation of the containment, Phosphate, ammonia or what ever, is achieves to over come the cyclical growth pattern of the algae which is to be killed off. It can take nearly 10 times the concentration of the contamination in ‘absolute chlorine’ to get ahead rather than just contributing to the Combined chlore levels, which will create more and different problems (trichloramine NCL3+ OH-).
Sometimes its necessary to us a Non chlorine oxidizer to break down the Nitrogenous compounds so that the chlorine can then do the sanitising work without these consequences. But they are not a commonly available compound - potassium peroxymonosulphate or permonosulphate is one of them. This will cause difficulties later on with chlorine levels as it will mask the chlorine like Active Oxygen products such as Reva. So you have to be careful and cannot just 'wing it' and throw them all in together. However unlike the others permonosulphate has a low pH near pH3 ,so there is a positive correction needed rather than the usual negative correction. The advantage of going this way is that there is unlikely to be any consequences for the liner or fittings, which can suffer under intensive chlorination.
So if you get a problem, which seems to be unshiftable, call for help rather than trying to get there with crude or untargeted remedies. Because if there results of repeated efforts are also part of the problem, that is elevated TDS, then there really will be no where to go but to refresh and start again- difficult to do when your forbidden to use the hose. So the expression 'penny wise, pound poor' was I think invented to describe pool ownership. Facing the prospect of maintaining a body of water in these difficult circumstances is trying on the patience but with help its possible to get through. If anyone is not yet reached the trouble time, then count your blessings as just when you think that its all simple and cannot understand what all the fuss is about, its then that your saga can begin.
This and other tombs are not meant to be poetic, nor heroic but rather informative, for recognising a problem in pool water quality is the first most important step to finding its remedy. And as has been extolled many times on this and other forums, there are few out the really understand what to do in challenging times. Most problems have simple solutions, but there are an increasing number, which do not, and it’s these that need special attention.
That is the message of this post.
Andrew
-
Yes I know someone wh is a specailist.
PM me your details and I'll pass it on.
Andrew
-
Pm'ed you as well.
Andrew
-
Adding to my erstwhile colleague - your pool is a 'public pool' under the definition of the Direction de la Santé Public (formally DDASS) as I am sure you know. Your max level of Combined Chlor may be no more than 0.6ppm to get through Control Sanitaire des Eaux de Piscine without a mention.
So Chocking once is really not the fix you need, as the problem will return after a time. As you know one of the great troubles in pool water is the existence of Ammonia which, when combining with Chlor produces Mono-chloramines and the rest hence raising the Combine Clhor level.
So if you change your sand to Zeolite it will go a long way to eliminate the Ammonia along with just about everything else bigger than 1 micron in the pool to alleviate this problem on continuing basis. It’s only the Conductivity that you will have to worry about after that.
Regards
Andrew
-
Just a reminder in case there was any doubt, that recent shortages of viable rainfall have resulted in a complete ban on hose pipe usage for pool top-up.
http://www.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/100722_carte_arretes.pdf
As always in these times, I want to make the point that all pool owners should seriously consider collection and storage of rainwater for their pools especially if the Pool is part of a Gite complex where your livelihood depends on it.
And again DO NOT use well water or any other ground source as it will nearly always cause more problems than its worth. If necessary its more cost effective to buy water to be transported from elsewhere.
Andrew
-
OK so you are selling, you must decide if you want to sell with a functioning and appropriate pool system or the a 'cot case' which is struggling through.
I would have thought that the former would be a more attractive proposition for a new buyer rather than the offer 'buy the property then decide to spend more to get the pool working'.
Incidentally, its illegal to use a salt system with a gite complex as there is no norm in the DDASS regs for that.
The main reason is that a salt chlorination system cannot produce enough chlorine to keep the pool water sterile at all times and so you ARE OBLIGED to manually dose it with chlore gallets irrespective if the salt unit works or not.
I suggest that you scrap it all together and go manual dosing for the time being or if you want to offer your buyer 'the best' then there are auto dosing systems available.
Changing the filter media to ZEOLITE will also improve your chances of a sale producing transparent clear water.
Its the same with many pools in France and the solution by and large, is the same. If you get it right first time then a pool will become a great asset - get it wrong and you own a genuine nightmare.
Andrew
-
Notwithstanding all of the above.... sand is hopeless filter media, if you care at all about water quality.
Water which is transparent clear and easy to manage can be had very simply and inexpensively without change of equipment, just the media changes to ZEOLITE
More and more pool builders are offering ZEOLITE as it outperforms anything else for an investment of a couple of hundred euro, which is peanuts compared with the investment in the pool of several tens of thousands.
The water is what a pool is about, keeping it nice is really simple - if only pool owners listen to simple advice, which can be proven. Thousands have many more thousands to go.
Andrew
-
Hi Ann
Wot's wrong then?Andrew
-
[quote user="gyn_paul"]
I know this sounds a silly question, but if you have a goodly array of tubes - sufficient to heat the pool up quickly in a spell of good weather,... what happens to the heat/to the tubes when you think the pool has reached its optimum temperature?
p
[/quote]
Its not Silly Gyn, au contraire its very insightful and I think the critical factor in good Solar system design. Typically heating systems are designed for the spring warm up and the autumn end of season to help with water temps sometimes in their teens°c. But that means heat is not needed during the hottest part of the year - summer, but with solar you cannot turn it off, it just keeps producing heat. That is to say that the panel will continue to produce heat and if the circulation is turned off the panel will reach stagnation which is up to 250°c. This is the max possible no matter what the radiation and will not hurt the panels but is very bad for the pump which can melt the impeller if the fluid (vapour) arriving is too hot.
Consequently, several fail-safes should be design in, but also important is some sort of heat dump - a harmless place to put the heat, which is not needed. Its usually the pool but no one wants a pool to be heated into the 30's so you can leave to cover off at night to let it cool down or have somewhere else to loose the heat., Many systems are size on the small side to minimise this issue but that sort of defeats the purpose in my opinion.
Andrew -
[quote user="Simon"]
We have got a green pool.
Cyuranic Acid = 62pmm
Chlor = 7ppm
pH is low but we are adding pH+ to get it to 7.2.
Any ideas? It looks like it's getting better but if it doesn't clear at pH 7.2 what should we do?
Many Thanks
[/quote]
And so what is the TAC....(if its not over 100 then its that which is to blame for the green and the low pH) it rained a lot last night and so a lot of pools will start turning this morning.
Andrew
-
Araucaria
I think that you'l find that a flat panel is far more suseptable to rocks than a tube system. At least with tube is it happen that one or two get broken for what ever reason then you just replace the glass bits at about €25 ea, and the system continues untroubled during and after, whereas a flat panel glass pane is broken then the whole panel is finished.
As I said before, the heat echanger is no real problem. I can show you more if you want to contact me.
Andrew
-
[quote user="Araucaria"]If I can find the money, I'm hoping to do a combined "warm the pool and heat the hot water" solar installation. It will be flat panel collectors, filled with an antifreeze (for winter use) and it will need a heat exchanger to warm the pool - rather than pool water circulating directly through the panels.
I understand there's an issue about the temperature of the transfer medium (antifreeze etc) in the heat exchanger - some (all?) will only cope with water temperatures up to 90 degrees, possibly because they are designed to use heated water from the domestic boiler rather than from solar panels. I understand that water/antifreeze mix in the solar panels can get to 130 or 140 degrees (as it's under pressure).
Are there heat exchangers specifically for this use? I believe the unions with the pool water system have to be capable of withstanding a high temperature too - I have a vague memory of having heard horror stories of the unions melting or burning. Any advice would be gratefully received.
[/quote]Araucaria
This is a noble endeavour and certainly doable. I've been working on this concept for a few years so that a solar installation can be used all year round and its capabilities maximised; The secret I have discovered is to mount the pool heat exchanger inside the Accumulator and then you can avoid all the problems with over heating and also direct the heat any where you want it. A schematic might look like this;
[IMG]http://i584.photobucket.com/albums/ss285/andrewhenderson/HousePoolSolarAkvatermV41-1.jpg[/IMG]
You will see in this diagram that you can add pool heating, domestic hot water and even heat you home (to some extent) all is possible and its the safest and most robust design we have found to date. All other options are fraught with problems and overload complications I fear. If you want more discussion on this idea then email me and I'd be happy to elaborate. Tell me why would you want to use flat solar panels then rather than tubes?
Cheers
Andrew
-
No matee
that's just one filter ... this one is rated at 150m3/hr
[IMG]http://i584.photobucket.com/albums/ss285/andrewhenderson/P9223568.jpg[/IMG]
I changed to Zeolite on this one in March this year, and before next season I'll need to do the BIG ONE's ...... there is 3 of them and they do a whole lot more than 100m3/hr
[IMG]http://i584.photobucket.com/albums/ss285/andrewhenderson/P9223561.jpg[/IMG]
Its not 'jet washing' its all about the surface area of media and the passage over the media in these filters is probably not much more than the domestic versions,- as you know Zeolite has 2000 times the surface area of sand (and crushed glass) because of its unique micropourus nature... but you knew that.
salutè
Andrew
-
Bill
Give me the diameter and/or the make and I'll estimate it for you. 'Spun fibreglass' filters are common for larger good quality makes.
John
Don't really understand what dryden is talking about (you know that there isn't much I agree with him about), most of the filters I was working on this year were pushing up to 100m3/hr or more, that sort of volume is very common for camping pools. But some of these filters haven't been changed for 20 years -That is the problem.
Andrew
-
Bill
As you have Gites then you MUST pay attention to the water quality, as I am sure you know already. The DDASS are very worried about the chemical balance in your pool water and have just released a paper in which they site their concerns about the Chloramines production in 'public' pools in France. Having tested 16,000 pools they find over half the pools give rise to concerns about this factor. (Article in today’s Figaro Pg 14) The full report is 300 pgs (I haven't finished reading it yet)
Now as you know, Zeolite can eliminate chloramines by the extraction of ammonia through ion attraction- chloramines are a waist product produced when Chlorine meets ammonia and are responsible for the ‘chlorine smell’ and most skin reactions in pools. There is usually plenty in the water of a family pool and even more in a Gite pool (1-5ppm). Zeolite is your best hope for keeping yourself away from the gaze of the DDASS; so to know how many kgs, you need to examine the side of your filter where it should have a decal showing the capacity of sand and gravel contained in your filter(s). Then you multiply this combined number by 0.65 to find out the weight of Zeolite (kg).
I understand from the DDASS that the frequency of change of filter media may soon be controlled but it is not clear how or when that will happen.
Andrew
-
Well Mr Glue
What can I say, should I humble myself before your incite... your vision, your enthusiasm for matters algorithmic and allegoric. You post voluminously on the subject but do you have any of these systems yourself to speak from any worthwhile experience whatsoever? Or its it........ Wikipedia, which constitutes or frames your views on the subject, be they ever so intransigent.
This is... and this isn't. (la de da ) If I understand anything of what you say (I don't really) then you are for Solar PV and against Solar thermal........;;; no wait, lets do that again.
Your saying that Solar thermal is good so long as you don't also have a motorbike, because .....; um (now I'm lost.) and PV is good but its not there yet because you have to have a holistic large building????? (Oh my god .. thanks god its Friday.)
Your saying that nothing really works because you live in Belgium (near enough) and so if it doesn’t work there then it does work in France (period)? (hope got right....)
But Glue (old chap) Bob lives in the Dordogne (and very nice too) he says it works
I live in Charante Maratime and anyone who want to can see that mine works just fine, the results are on my website
There are dozens of others living in Brittany and they say 'it works great' mate
There is a company I know in the UK (starting with N) selling more than 400 systems a months to people who must think that it will work otherwise (I guess) why would they buy it?
I know of a lot in Scotland too that have a lot to say about it. And hey, the Germans ('don't mention the war') well they have more systems than any country in the world (per capita) well maybe they don't get s much sun as Belguim may be they do. (who am I to say)
So mate, answer me this with all those people who have systems and are happy with them, you must think that they are all raving loonies, noddies, dimwits and losers because ......
well ..why do you think that. Oh I know 'its a 19 year payback'. Really!!!!
Well just as you can prove the numbers don't make sense someone else can use the same numbers and prove that they do.
What's important is 'does it make me happy to have a solar system on my roof', Yes it does. Yes!
And the same is true for all the people I know who choose to do that same thing; It makes them happy, - so the numbers are meaningless.
All in good fun you see!
Andrew
-
[quote user="Quillan"]I have one question about solar energy be it to heat water or provide electricity. If it were really that good then why does not any government, especially in Europe, pass a simple law that says all new houses must be built with this stuff installed?[/quote]
That is the case in Ireland I believe and should be the case everywhere. The planning laws specify that at least ONE renewable MUST be present in EVERY new build. This sort of measure probably will eventually come in throughout Europe – Ireland is usually the first at this sort of thing. But it’s a highly political issue everywhere and particularly in France and bound up with the position EDF have in Europe as an income earner for France.
Photovoltaic doesn't stack up financially, that has been a 'known' for decades. You have to get into concentrated Photovoltaic (CPV) on a large scale before the numbers go in the right direction. On the Domestic scale as an investment is the right reason to say yes. Its an environmental reason that you would engage a company to turn your roof into a factory and invest a meagre €20k+ on energy production; result-€4-8/kwh (LCOE)
But Solar thermal on the other hand does make sense as its far lower tech, and the cost the energy it replaces is much higher. Not only is it ecological, its smaller too you don't need so many M2 and you can start with a small domestic HW system say 10 or 15 tubes and then build up to greater things if you want. I've got DHW and space heating and can add pool heating to get performance out of the system 12 months of the year If I want.. result €0.20- €1.2/kwh (LCOE)
Glue stick’s rational is fine if you like that sort of thing but Glyn P's question is right on for me. Why should every purchase hinge on a payback? Never saw anyone do that on the metal monster in the drive, nor the rayburn for that matter. It's a thing.... a preference about they way you want to live. I live with most of my needs under my own control (excluding mains Electric), I'm not a slave to the oil/gas delivery man and the whims of the global oil market. I like that.... I says who I am, but I'm not waiting for the time to arrive (sometime in the next 5 years) when I walk taller or my chest gets broader because my investment has been consumed by savings, I'll surely never notice that moment passing.
So I prefer to think that nearly everyone does things or decides what they want to buy on a whim because it suits them - the tendency to over think these things gets nothing at all done.
I say Solar thermal is the most sensible renewable.
Andrew
-
If you can verify that the tablet did not dissolve totally, then I suggest you change your swirling action to a 'flick' action and continue for 45 seconds instead of 30 secs(then rest of the remainder of the 30 secs), it is important that the whole tab is dissolved. Hence, I would be very confident to say therefore that your first CYS test (33) is unreliable. So we now know that your pool had over 300ppm of CYS due to your use of gallets without the ability to test for CYS. Now that you have the SCUBA+ you can use your gallets untill the CYS reaches 50ppm after which you can switch to Javel (something like 1 litre per day or its equivalent) which will chlorinate without adding to the stabliser concentration. OR if you wanted to save even more money ....... forget about gallets alltogether and use only 4 basic products to balance you pool chemistry which you can now measure very accurately with SCUBA+
Javel --- for chlorination
Sulphuric acid ---- for pH balance
Cyanuric acid powder----- for stabliser
bicarbonate soda------- for the TAC
That lot should mean a spend of about €120- €180 /year on chemicals depending on the size of the pool, useage and quality of water and filtration.
If you are spending more than that, then its a waste.
Don't be concered about your current Chlor free level it will come down itself, and yes you need to add more fresh water (50%) which will bring you down to the maximum level of 50ppm. Only then will you have good water quality managment which has not been the case for the past 4 years.
Hope that I have helped you
Andrew
-
Yes the 40cm level is my tip as it gets a more representative sample in my opinion - water stratifies you know.
The bi carb take at least 2 days to dissolve completly - 96 is nearly there, so add another 2 kg
BUT FIRST... your CYS is still not resolved. So its important to get a result what ever that may be to know what to do.
Take 1 litre of pool water (40 cm down) add 1 litre of fresh tap water and test the result - SCUBA+ should give you a reading and that will determine the answer.
If it turns out to be say 50ppm after dilution then you have a result of 100ppm which will block your chlor so your pool will eventually turn green. Nevertheless in the mean time stop using gallets and use Javel liquid instead so you don't make the situation any worse.
Andrew
-
Are you timing the tests according to the instructions?
After testing, did you tip the test into your hand to ensure that the pastille is dissolved completely.
Did you take the water sample from 40cm down.
Andrew
-
Vernon
I've sent you a PM
Andrew
-
I've sent you a PM
Andrew
-
Well John there is nearly nothing there that I can agree with.
Aquacheck is not much better than the drop test which is actually testing the wrong value (total chlor) you need Free Chlor
If the levels are to be believed then your pH is fine, nothing to do, you TAC (162 I don't beleive it) is fine nothing to do.
Sodium bisulphate is pH minus, do not add any. TAC is raised with Bi carbonate Soda - you do not need any.
Javel is Liquid chlorine add enough to get 1.5 - 2ppm, how much depends on the needs of the pool, only testing will tell you when its enough. Start with 2 litres per day.
If you want to winterise successfully then don't expect antialgea to do anyhting for you, its not meant for that, the advise you got 'locally ' is completly WRONG, don't ask them anything else.
The only thing able to keep algea away is the presence of chlorine/bromine.
I think that you need some professonal assistance to clear up your pool management procedures.
Don't use the drops anymore, to get Cyanuric acid you need to purchase a test that will give you the facility; Aquacheck doesn't do it but Scuba + does.
Andrew
-
[quote user="Théière"] Test equipment is expensive and certainly that may also be the reason it is not stocked The only companies worthy of looking at are Lovibond, Palintest or Hanna and out of all of them the scuba+ is the best/cheapest option, I sometimes wish I had one, it cost almost as much to re-calibrate my Palintest pooltest 9 as it does to buy a scuba+[/quote]
Bless you John
Andrew
pool water and storms
in Swimming Pools in France
Posted
Osie
I've sent you a pH about SCUBA +, it does all you want without the messing.
Andrew