Complete change of times for 'heures creuses'

[Lehaut]

In this HC-HP discussion it is worth checking the detail of your bills.  Our neighbour 3 floors down found her overnight water heater was not functioning on the HC system.  She has only recently resumed living in her flat having given up a winter job in the Alps.  I tried testing the system as best I could and changed the HC controlled MCB in case the internal switch for the HC had burnt out.  All without success.  I suggested she called Enedis to verify the system.

The chap arrived and found, to his surprise that, when the Linky meter was installed, they failed to connect the control wire from the Meter to HC control on the water heater!   Her bill only reflected the hour change overs for the manual stuff.

[Martin963]

2 hours ago, alittlebitfrench said:

We can’t go off grid here but 7 months electricity would be free…..ish. Good quality solar panels will still work in the winter on a cloudy day.

 

I'm afraid you've been reading too many commercial claims from solar panels installers.    Yes they still work,  but at a tiny fraction of what they produce in the summer.   For example,   our system (which is ground mounted as you mentioned it) produces 4064 W when the sun is fully out.    If it is even slightly hazy it drops to 3500.   If a cloud covers it but the sky is clear it drops to about 1500.   On a fully cloudy summer's day it's about 800 W.   On a dim dark mid winter day (admittedly Devon) it is 150 W.  

So in the summer our daily output varies from 6 kWh (terrible day) to 32 kWh (full sunshine dawn to dusk).    June total monthly output 550 kWh - 700 kWh.

In winter those figures are 0.6 kWh (terrible day) to 12 kWh (full sun dawn to dusk).    December total monthly output 80 - 100 kWh.

Don't kid yourself that you'd have enough in the winter,   unless you were say somewhere like the Hautes Alpes (300 days of sunshine a year) and had say a 30 panel system (ours is 14).

 

 

 

 

Edited July 30 by Martin963

[Noisette]

2 hours ago, DaveLister said:

You obviously have done a lot of research in this area Noisette. My Linky is not accessible. Does that mean I can't install any renewables?

I did and we were within a hair's breadth of signing up when I got wind of these changes. I don't know if putting a link to a forum is acceptable here, but if it is, I'd strongly recommend this one....https://forum-photovoltaique.fr/search.php?search_id=active_topics&sid=d1b7ef0cfc85ff5cd778b2ac24e8cdcf   It's not the most user-friendly due to the sheer size and scope of the subject, but for accurate advice, it's unbeatable!

[Martin963]

2 hours ago, DaveLister said:

You obviously have done a lot of research in this area Noisette. My Linky is not accessible. Does that mean I can't install any renewables?

It's not the actual meter itself that needs a direct connection.    Going by our English system,    this sort of (pro) solar installation always has some sort of control box containing at the very least an inverter,  to convert the solar produced power to AC,  and importantly,   AC sync'd to the grid.    This box also supervises the flow out to the grid (if there's a surplus that your house isn't taking) and back from the grid (when the house is using more than the PVs are producing,  eg at night).   The Linky just notices which way the flow is going and measures it,   sort of counting the electrons back and forth as it were.    The control box doesn't need any sort of additional connection to the Linky,   other than live and neutral which go through it anyway on the way to your fuse box and the solar system.

The other important point is that you can't just connect solar panels to the grid without authorisation,   the big risk is that in the event of a power cut your system tries to power the grid in the wrong direction.   There is a genuine risk that a guy up a pole trying to get the power back on will get a bolt.    So all systems of this sort have to either shut down if there's a power cut,   or "island" your installation so that you can go on using your own power in isolation from the main grid.    What a lot of people don't realise is that their system is in the former category,    one of the few systems that keeps the power on in a cut is Tesla (which is what we have) as it contains the necessary switch gear as standard.   An electrician can retro fit an automatic or manual switch but it's at a cost of several hundred €s.

Edited July 30 by Martin963

[Noisette]

2 hours ago, alittlebitfrench said:

Going off grid is more of a project and a hobby. It would be interesting and fun. But has to be done from scratch.

It not just solar panels and a wind turbine it’s everything. You have to look at how you consume and change accordingly.

We are quite good on the electricity side. We don’t have a big fridge. We do the washing at 30 degrees on 30 min cycle.. We have a little work surface grill oven that takes about 5 mins to heat up. 

The problem is the cost of the abandonment for the electricity and the tax. That is what is expensive.

In terms of solar panels, I would go for a ground installation. I would never put them on a roof. Far to expensive. And yes, I would invest in batteries.

We can’t go off grid here but 7 months electricity would be free…..ish. Good quality solar panels will still work in the winter on a cloudy day.

 

The biggest casse-tête is how to stock 'free' summer energy for re-use when it's most required, in winter. It's something that I've been puzzling over for 17 years! Do you realise the size of the batteries that would be required? 🤣

[Martin963]

3 minutes ago, Noisette said:

The biggest casse-tête is how to stock 'free' summer energy for re-use when it's most required, in winter. It's something that I've been puzzling over for 17 years! Do you realise the size of the batteries that would be required? 🤣

I think that in extremis there are systems to actually close down your PVs in the event of that scenario.   In our case the battery takes what it can,   and then exports the rest when it is full.   However,   if we go off grid deliberately (you can do that with a Tesla system) or there is a failure of the grid connection,   there is a system which closes down the entire caboodle until the sun stops shining.   That said,   I don't know how it works and have never seen it happen.  

You could always put black out material over the PVs......?  🙃

[alittlebitfrench]

15 minutes ago, Martin963 said:

 

I get what you are saying. It is such a confusing issue. I have a book on solar panels and watched you tube and all the rest.

You can only really trust experience from those who have them installed. And I thank you for your advice.

What I have done is built a small 5 sq metre (no planning permission required) shed for the famalies bikes. I built it in exactly the right location for perfect sun and also at the right inclination for roof.

The roof will fit three solar panels.

It will cost 2000 k euros to have them installed with our electricien.

I have not decided yet but here is the deal. If I leave the cash in the bank it will gain interest. Generating electricity will save me money on my electricity bill. At what point do I start making money ? 

 

 

[alittlebitfrench]

16 minutes ago, Noisette said:

The biggest casse-tête is how to stock 'free' summer energy for re-use when it's most required, in winter. It's something that I've been puzzling over for 17 years! Do you realise the size of the batteries that would be required? 🤣

What electricity do you use more in the Winter than the Summer ?

If you are trying to power electric radiators forget it. Solar won’t work. Done the maths. 

You need another heating system.

[Martin963]

21 minutes ago, alittlebitfrench said:

I get what you are saying. It is such a confusing issue. I have a book on solar panels and watched you tube and all the rest.

You can only really trust experience from those who have them installed. And I thank you for your advice.

What I have done is built a small 5 sq metre (no planning permission required) shed for the famalies bikes. I built it in exactly the right location for perfect sun and also at the right inclination for roof.

The roof will fit three solar panels.

It will cost 2000 k euros to have them installed with our electricien.

I have not decided yet but here is the deal. If I leave the cash in the bank it will gain interest. Generating electricity will save me money on my electricity bill. At what point do I start making money ? 

 

 

It's very difficult.    When we decided to get the solar and battery (we had just one Tesla battery orignally) bank interest rates were on the floor,   and having been nailed there since 2009 by the policy of "financial repression" on the part of central banks and complicit governments,  I had come to the conclusion that we'd never again see interest at realistic levels again.    So anything that saved us £1500 a year was a good investment.   Of course that has subsequently all changed,   but with a complete f*ckwit now in charge of our energy policies (and the last f*ckwit wasn't any better!) I don't for a second regret the investment in terms of protection from rising costs and likely outages.   But up thread I was careful to say that I really had no idea whether in strict accountancy terms the system would ever truly pay back,   that is before the batteries need replacing etc.

3 solar panels is better than nothing,    but I'd guess your max output would be in the region of 1000 W in full sunshine,   so useful but probably not economic given that your ideal would be to get shot of a supplier.    You'd end up still having to pay the abonnement.     And it wouldn't even run your washing machine if you washed at anything higher than 30 deg C.  My feeling is that you're going to have all the big installation costs (ie linking to the grid) and only the smallest of benefits....

Maybe you need to buy more bikes,   then build a bigger shed with more roof space,   then recalculate....😁

Seriously though,   if we all were able - economically - to do a little bit,   the problem would diminish.   For example I'd have a turbine like a shot here in Devon where we have howling winds a lot of the time,   but having looked at the costs (ouch!) and the ongoing maintenance costs (more ouch!) it just isn't worth it.    

As I said,   our game changer is being able to use the batteries in winter to store cheaply imported overnight electricity,   meaning that we never pay more than 8.5 p per kWh for our power,   whereas in the day time it would be at least 25 p per kWh if we had to use it.    And then in the summer our imports become pretty small anyway.

As an aside about how much difference full sunshine makes,   in the first couple of years on our PVs we almost got to 5 MWh per year output,   it was actually about 4950 kWh annually,   and co-incided with some remarkably good weather.    In the last year to date,   ie since the weather collapsed in Britain,  and since the last period of really sunny weather in June 2023 finally dropped out of the figures,   we're down to an annual output of 4300 kWh.    It's a huge drop,   and it isn't just us,   that picture is reflected nationally from what I've heard.

Edited July 30 by Martin963

[DaveLister]

43 minutes ago, Martin963 said:

So all systems of this sort have to either shut down if there's a power cut,   or "island" your installation so that you can go on using your own power in isolation from the main grid.    What a lot of people don't realise is that their system is in the former category,

I have to admit I had assumed that during a power cut I would still have the availability of whatever power I was generating. In my case the reason for looking at solar is partly to do with the number of power cuts we have annually. I've around 110 square metres of roof facing due south. I thought I could, at the very least, cover the garage area as that's where the main fuse box lives.Your explanation however Martin makes perfect sense. Don't want to be responsible for electrocuting anybody. 😟 

Thank you for the link Noisette. I can see I'm going to have to do a lot more investigating.

[alittlebitfrench]

23 minutes ago, Martin963 said:

It's very difficult.    When we decided to get the solar and battery (we had just one Tesla battery orignally) bank interest rates were on the floor,   and having been nailed there since 2009 by the policy of "financial repression" on the part of central banks and complicit governments,  I had come to the conclusion that we'd never again see interest at realistic levels again.    So anything that saved us £1500 a year was a good investment.   Of course that has subsequently all changed,   but with a complete f*ckwit now in charge of our energy policies (and the last f*ckwit wasn't any better!) I don't for a second regret the investment in terms of protection from rising costs and likely outages.   But up thread I was careful to say that I really had no idea whether in strict accountancy terms the system would ever truly pay back,   that is before the batteries need replacing etc.

3 solar panels is better than nothing,    but I'd guess your max output would be in the region of 1000 W in full sunshine,   so useful but probably not economic given that your ideal would be to get shot of a supplier.    You'd end up still having to pay the abonnement.     And it wouldn't even run your washing machine if you washed at anything higher than 30 deg C.  My feeling is that you're going to have all the big installation costs (ie linking to the grid) and only the smallest of benefits....

Maybe you need to buy more bikes,   then build a bigger shed with more roof space,   then recalculate....😁

Seriously though,   if we all were able - economically - to do a little bit,   the problem would diminish.   For example I'd have a turbine like a shot here in Devon where we have howling winds a lot of the time,   but having looked at the costs (ouch!) and the ongoing maintenance costs (more ouch!) it just isn't worth it.    

As I said,   our game changer is being able to use the batteries in winter to store cheaply imported overnight electricity,   meaning that we never pay more than 8.5 p per kWh for our power,   whereas in the day time it would be at least 25 p per kWh if we had to use it.    And then in the summer our imports become pretty small anyway.

As an aside about how much difference full sunshine makes,   in the first couple of years on our PVs we almost got to 5 MWh per year output,   it was actually about 4950 kWh annually,   and co-incided with some remarkably good weather.    In the last year to date,   ie since the weather collapsed in Britain,  and since the last period of really sunny weather in June 2023 finally dropped out of the figures,   we're down to an annual output of 4300 kWh.    It's a huge drop,   and it isn't just us,   that picture is reflected nationally from what I've heard.

So we just installed a new hot water boiler to replace the gas one. It is one of those eco ones (like a heat pump but not a heat pump type things) that produces hot water for about 150-200 euros a year.
 

I asked our electrician how many solar panels would I need to offset the cost of producing the hot water. Not to power it all the time, just offset the cost over the year. He said two. So basically I am getting free hot water and a few light bulbs for 6k euros. Good investment ? 

The problem in France is that the French government is highly anticipated to start raiding peoples savings to fill in the massive black hole in French finances. I think it is coming. 
 

So rather than the cash trying to earn me interest in a bank account that Government may end up having, I think it is better to invest it saving you money on your utilities.

That is my logic….I think.

I going to write all these costs off. Mrs Albf and I are going to start a business and I view these costs as part of the business.

Like I said earlier, to go off grid you need to do it from scratch. That basically is buying a house somewhere that allows you to produce solar and wind energy both in summer and winter. It is a 100k investment. But a swimming pool is 50 k. I rather go off grid than have a swim 3 days of the year. Lol
 

We have a little inherited house that I am renovating that fits the bill. That house can go off grid.

So why don’t you do it ALBF I hear you ask ? 
 

No doctors in the area. No medical facilities. Rien.

So that sorts that one out.
 

[Martin963]

That sounds at least plausible.    Our immersion heater tank is probably a lot smaller than your French one (how I wish I could get hold of one of those French chaudieres) and over the year uses an average of 3 kWh per night.   So annually roughly 1000 kWh.   Let's say you use double (larger family,   bigger tank) giving 2000 kWh per year.

Our annual production on 14 panels of PV is 4300 kWh.    It probably would be about 4600 kWh if our max output wasn't throttled (not much but a bit) in order not to overload the backfeed capabilities of our local grid (this was mandated by the distribution company unfortunately)    If we had three panels it would be 3/14 x 4600 = 985 kWh production per year.

It would be hard for you - even in Northern France if that's where you are - not to have significantly more sun than we do in the south west of England.   A friend up near Basingstoke does considerably better than us,   say by 20%.

So whilst I'm not sure that three panels would entirely - averaged over the year - run your hot water,  it would make a significant contribution,  even if in winter it would be very low in helping power anything at all.

 

Your problem is having all the installation base costs (which aren't going to vary entirely proportionally with the number of panels) for a small number of panels.       I don't know how much electricity costs now in France having not been there for five years,   but 200 Euros a year is quite small fry in relation to say taxe d'hab etc.....?

Edited July 30 by Martin963

[alittlebitfrench]

53 minutes ago, Martin963 said:

 

 

Your problem is having all the installation base costs (which aren't going to vary entirely proportionally with the number of panels) for a small number of panels.       I don't know how much electricity costs now in France having not been there for five years,   but 200 Euros a year is quite small fry in relation to say taxe d'hab etc.....?

I think that is why we will only go for two or three. They will work but to what extent is the interesting bit. Like I said earlier, if you turn it into a hobby then it becomes more justifiable in terms of cost. I can’t wait to do the stats.
 

If it does work I will expand. If they don’t the two/three panels will pay themselves back eventually. I guess.

Tax hab is is just tax fonc now….but you you make a great point.

We offset that in a different way. Low cost, no hassle. Easy to do.

I like the idea of offseting costs with small investments. Not one big investment. Like renting a house. For me that is not a good idea.

Look after the pennies and all that.

 

[Martin963]

Yes,   sorry,  quite right,   tax foncière.   Brain fade on my part.

Relieved in many ways we don't have our house in France any more,   we would of course be paying the taxe d'hab as well,  I don't know if our commune has upped the rate as some have,   but either way the local taxes were getting to be too high for us to carry on.    Particularly galling when we had been refused residency fifteen years ago in flagrant breach of EU law,

[alittlebitfrench]

1 hour ago, Martin963 said:

Yes,   sorry,  quite right,   tax foncière.   Brain fade on my part.

Relieved in many ways we don't have our house in France any more,   we would of course be paying the taxe d'hab as well,  I don't know if our commune has upped the rate as some have,   but either way the local taxes were getting to be too high for us to carry on.    Particularly galling when we had been refused residency fifteen years ago in flagrant breach of EU law,

I remember you saying in another post.

It works both ways. My dream is to own a house/flat in the UK….but the maths doesn’t add up. A Ryanair flight and a premier Inn is cheaper.

Mrs ALBF would love to move to the UK and would do tomorrow but the hoops she would have to jump through to get citizenship is stupid. Regardless of the fact she is bilingual French/English, married to an English bloke, 3 half English/French kids, and she knows English/Scottish history better than most. Her knowledge of British history is staggering. She is your phone a friend.

But it is what is. 
 

Thks Boris

 

Edited July 30 by alittlebitfrench

[Harnser]

8 hours ago, alittlebitfrench said:

8 hours ago, alittlebitfrench said:

What happened in the past is irrelevant. What is happening today is important. Ok it might cool down in the future but we don’t know that. It would be silly not to react. I would rather the scientists are proved wrong than the Earth turning into Mars. So would they I guess.

Is not just air temperature though it is the sea temperature that is the scary one. Melting ice rising sea levels = more extreme weather. Not sure what the trend is for sea temperatures but I bet they are hotter today than in 1825.
 

It was 40 degrees here yesterday and 50 degrees in the cour. The stress that heat is putting on the house and the cars is scary. Today it will be the same temperature followed by storms and hail. Years ago we had our car destroyed by hail.

So yeah, extreme weather events is the killer. Flooding, forrest fires, storms, mountains falling apart, buildings falling apart.
 

No can argue that there is more extreme weather events. Most 

No can argue that there is more extreme weather events. Most 

You are a data denier, the average temperature nowadays is roughly the same as it was over a hundred years ago.

There are less extreme weather events now than in the past, again you are a data denier;

[alittlebitfrench]

1 hour ago, Harnser said:

You are a data denier, the average temperature nowadays is roughly the same as it was over a hundred years ago.

There are less extreme weather events now than in the past, again you are a data denier;

I am not a data denier because I dont study the data. Its not my thing.

I can tell you though that I can’t go outside at the moment cause it’s too hot. God it is hot out there. Its + 40 degrees in the cour. It has been like that now every year for the 4/5 years. 

When we first moved here (where we live now) it would always snow in the Winter. It has not snowed here for the last ten years now.

I remember in year 2000 going skiing in the morning in Alpe Du Huez in the summer.  Then coming down from the 3rd station to the main station and watching Lance Armstrong arrive in Alpe in the Tour de France.

I am not sure anyone ever again will ski in Alpe du Huez in the summer. Maybe we were the last to do that.

Sooner or later no one will ski in the winter. At the moment the ski season is becoming shorter and shorter. I don’t care what graph or stats you present, the reality on the ground is what counts.

Its getting hot out there. Winter or summer….its hot.

 

 

[anotherbanana]

so, clearly, data and experience in contradiction. For the average Joe and Joanne the latter matters; neither is really absolutely right.

[Noisette]

13 hours ago, alittlebitfrench said:

What electricity do you use more in the Winter than the Summer ?

If you are trying to power electric radiators forget it. Solar won’t work. Done the maths. 

You need another heating system.

Oh no radiators here, we opted for geothermal which is not bad, but when all's said and done, an electrically-powered heat pump and hot-water tank. If the HC/HP tariff was genuinely loaded in the customer's favour, it's a good system, but now they're tinkering with everything to maximise profits and taxes, and accommodate their own agenda for input and output, we just can't win 😐