Salty Sam Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 If the poison dwarf thinks that by having a second home in France, we don't make a valid contribution - then so be it!I hope that the 'second homes' subject to extra taxation will also include static 'tin tents', and while he's at it he may as well make every other tourist pay a tax for simply entering France, as obviously tourism contributes nothing and is simply a drain on resources!It's looking very much like my visitations are numbered, and I'll be more than happy to get rid of my retreat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patf Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 if you can sell it, Salty Sam.The two house taxes, foncière and habitation, are based on the notional rental value of the property, so perhaps they will adjust these for 2nd home owners. Otherwise , how would they collect the tax (owners not french fiscal residents.) And what if people just refuse to pay? Will they be pursued in the UK etc?If it's passed, bad news all round. It's going to make rural properties much harder to sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 [quote user="Catalpa"][quote user="powerdesal"]I really dont think anyone went as far as saying that the French economy is being kept afloat by second home owners. [/quote]Well, I'm sure that's what they're saying on AngloInfo. Do you mean it's not true?! [8-)][:-))][/quote]To repeat what Mandy Rice Davies said in court:Well, they would, wouldn't they?[:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fisherman Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Why am I not surprised. Just as I have saved up enough to buy a ticket they change the destination of the train.Oh well will just have to do a few more days work to pay for it.Ones first instinct is to get angry ( & perhaps feel it’s a racist act) however what one needs to consider is if this tax was in place when you first purchased your property would you still have bought it ?Perhaps a gallic shrug is called for and get on with life.(and quietly hope it gets challenged in the EU court) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalpa Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 The UK frequently discusses a second-home tax. Okay, it has not been implemented and it would be very unpopular if it was... because unlike the proposed French tax, the way it is discussed, it would apply to second-homes owned by British residents. Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see how this proposed (French) tax can be realistically challenged in the EU courts because a) it doesn't seem to be discriminating against anyone and b) there is a substantial autonomy as to how each country arranges taxation regulations. Overseas-resident French nationals (actually ex-France tax residents of any nationality) would be affected too, just not necessarily immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fisherman Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 It may be just the way things are viewed in the UK but I had the impression (perhaps wrongly) that if legislation disproportionately effected one group then it could be construed as racist, sexist or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 So, the next step is for France or Uk to make all second home owners pay a tax. It will come, unfortunately Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fisherman Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 I think you are right Woolybanana. It’s unfortunate that the general public see second home owners as rich.The truth is in most cases is the way people choose spend their money. In our case we don’t spend £3000 each year flying off to exotic places or spend a lot of money on going out and other transient luxuries. We work and save so that we can afford just one nice thing.The general public tend to blow their money and then look around with envy at those who have been more prudent.About 40 years ago one of my friends mothers had a cottage in Cornwall where she took her children every summer (a bit like an Enid Blighton story). However to afford this she went without a lot of things even a television and a car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5-element Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 [quote user="fisherman"] It’s unfortunate that the general public see second home owners as rich.... The general public tend to blow their money and then look around with envy at those who have been more prudent.[/quote]Who is "the general public"?I think perhaps you could brush up on your notions (stereotyped, and bordering on the offensive) of what "the general public" does, or doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 A tax of 20% on rental value is going to be a lot of tax. How would any rental value be worked out? I would guess my place would be 200 euros a week to rent (but in truth I haven't got a clue) which would present me with a tax bill of around 2000 euros a year. That sort of money is enough to deter a lot of people owning a second home in France and I do not believe even politicians are so stupid as to implement a tax that would drive a huge amount of investment from their country. I think I will wait and see what happens before I get my knickers in a twist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 [quote user="Devon"]A tax of 20% on rental value is going to be a lot of tax. How would any rental value be worked out? I would guess my place would be 200 euros a week to rent (but in truth I haven't got a clue) which would present me with a tax bill of around 2000 euros a year. That sort of money is enough to deter a lot of people owning a second home in France and I do not believe even politicians are so stupid as to implement a tax that would drive a huge amount of investmnent from their country. I think I will wait and see what happens before I get my knickers in a twist.[/quote]If you look at your existing TF and TdH bills, you will find that the TdH is a percentage of a notional "valeur locative brut" which is stated on your form, and the TF is a (higher!) percentage of a base figure exactly half of the notional "valeur locative". My understanding is that the new tax will be 20% of the base figure as shown in the TdH (and hence 40% of the base figure for TF).RegardsPickles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsnips Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Hi, I have read that the new tax will be roughly equivalent to the taxe fonciere, and based on the same notional rental value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 [quote user="Pickles"][quote user="Devon"]A tax of 20% on rental value is going to be a lot of tax. How would any rental value be worked out? I would guess my place would be 200 euros a week to rent (but in truth I haven't got a clue) which would present me with a tax bill of around 2000 euros a year. That sort of money is enough to deter a lot of people owning a second home in France and I do not believe even politicians are so stupid as to implement a tax that would drive a huge amount of investmnent from their country. I think I will wait and see what happens before I get my knickers in a twist.[/quote]If you look at your existing TF and TdH bills, you will find that the TdH is a percentage of a notional "valeur locative brut" which is stated on your form, and the TF is a (higher!) percentage of a base figure exactly half of the notional "valeur locative". My understanding is that the new tax will be 20% of the base figure as shown in the TdH (and hence 40% of the base figure for TF).RegardsPickles [/quote] Thanks Pickles. I am just finishing rebuilding a total ruin (3 walls were all I started with) at the moment and it will be completed by the summer. I guess I will get all the information when I notify the appropriate authority of completion. Maybe I should refrain from informing them for a while [:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbie Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 [quote user="Devon"][quote user="Pickles"][quote user="Devon"]A tax of 20% on rental value is going to be a lot of tax. How would any rental value be worked out? I would guess my place would be 200 euros a week to rent (but in truth I haven't got a clue) which would present me with a tax bill of around 2000 euros a year. That sort of money is enough to deter a lot of people owning a second home in France and I do not believe even politicians are so stupid as to implement a tax that would drive a huge amount of investmnent from their country. I think I will wait and see what happens before I get my knickers in a twist.[/quote]If you look at your existing TF and TdH bills, you will find that the TdH is a percentage of a notional "valeur locative brut" which is stated on your form, and the TF is a (higher!) percentage of a base figure exactly half of the notional "valeur locative". My understanding is that the new tax will be 20% of the base figure as shown in the TdH (and hence 40% of the base figure for TF).RegardsPickles [/quote] Thanks Pickles. I am just finishing rebuilding a total ruin (3 walls were all I stated with) at the moment and it will be completed by the summer. I guess I will get all the information when I notify the appropriate authority of completion. Maybe I should refrain from informing them for a while [:D][/quote]Or possibly refrain from completing the last (insignificant) bit of work[:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fisherman Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 To 5-elementI humbly apologise if my rather generalist comments offended your sensibilities.(Especially if I have touched a nerve.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5-element Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Your "generalist comment" seemed to broadly cut the world into two sections:1) "us" (i.e. secondary houseowners in France)2) "them" ("the general public", i.e. non secondary houseowners in France)....this is a rather vast category, as it might include anything from an Australian multinational boss with a whole range of properties in various countries (except France), to the struggling one-parent French family who rents a rather dilapidated flat down the road. I am not sure that my two random examples have much in common, apart from being "the general public" to you. Unless you mean by "general public", "anybody who is not me".[:D] - that is entirely possible.I guess you couldn't help trying to have another dig!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 [quote user="fisherman"]I think you are right Woolybanana. It’s unfortunate that the general public see second home owners as rich. The truth is in most cases is the way people choose spend their money. In our case we don’t spend £3000 each year flying off to exotic places or spend a lot of money on going out and other transient luxuries. We work and save so that we can afford just one nice thing. The general public tend to blow their money and then look around with envy at those who have been more prudent. About 40 years ago one of my friends mothers had a cottage in Cornwall where she took her children every summer (a bit like an Enid Blighton story). However to afford this she went without a lot of things even a television and a car.[/quote]Aha. So if I'd rather go on holiday in a different place every year than be tied down to one, that makes me profligate and you prudent. Sorry, but it just means we both like to spend our holidays differently. And it certainly doesn't make me envy you because I'd rather not go to the same old place year in year out, however nice. I'd rather have a different experience every year, thanks. By the time I was ten I had been to France, Italy, Spain, and Switzerland and that in the days when going abroad was very unusal. Maybe my parents should have bought a cottage in Cornwall - perhaps that experience would have been better for me, do you think? Would I have been speaking conversational French even before I began to study it at school?Whether you spend your money on a holiday home of your own or on holidays abroad, you're probably better off than those who cannot afford either. But I digress. I reckon there are good economic arguments agains this proposal and the idea that second home owners contribute nothing to the local economy is just plain daft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aly Posted May 14, 2011 Author Share Posted May 14, 2011 http://www.connexionfrance.com/Holiday-home-government-tax-non-residents-12723-view-article.htmlSome upto date info. My concern is that this tax will inevitably increase year on year. It may in some regions affect house prices particulaly where there is a boyant overseas market Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprogster Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 It will also eventually apply after six years to French residents with second homes as well.Otherwise, the EU would rule against it for discriminating against non French EU citizens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeanS Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Just picked up on this thread, we bought our house in 2004 - then spent all available holidays for 6 years up until we retired, bringing it up to to a respectable standard. It was our intention to move to France but the state of the EU made us decide not to. So we spend around 3-4 months in a year in France. We don't rent out but are always happy to receive visitors from the UK - mainly family and friends. As others, we have spent lots of EU's in various DIY places. on local artisans, supermarkets etc.As well as paying for utilities,which are more than we pay in the UK. And now we are expected to pay another tax -We have recently been thinking about selling up and buying a narrow boat in the UK - so this maybe the deciding factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5-element Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 The French press has some interesting articles on the topic. For those who read French, the following article questions both the validity and wisdom of such a measure: "une nouvelle mauvaise idée"http://www.lecri.fr/2011/05/10/la-taxation-de-la-residence-secondaire-des-etrangers/23432And here is a map of the all the "maisons secondaires" in France (there were around 3,1 million in 2007, not differentiating between foreign-owned and French-owned):http://www.journaldunet.com/economie/magazine/dossier/les-cartogrammes-des-regions-de-france-selon-l-economie/nombre-de-residences-secondaires.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audio Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 A lot of British residents keep their boats here.I haven’t had the time to wade through all of these documents but I guess that sooner or later this tax may well apply to them as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patf Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 You can work out how much it would be - look on the back of your Tax Foncière statement, and find the figure next to "base" (just under addresse). multiply this by 12 and that's the annual figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5-element Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Are you sure Pat???If I did that, my annual figure would be...19,032 euros!!! Can't be right, surely! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audio Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 With due respect Patf, I hope you have made a mistake, this gives a figure of 22.8x my Tax Foncière! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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